• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Non-literal Genesis Evidences

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
This thread is for listing and discussing all those many things in Genesis which hint that it should not be taken literally by most people. I am not interested in a debate about Evolution vs. Creation. Anyone is welcome to make suggestions or objections, so I am putting this into the Biblical Debates zone.


No jokes, please, no politics, and no venting about how you feel about religion, church, atheism etc. Please no tangential topics about nephilim, racism, aliens etc. I will consider these to be off topic and request other posters to treat them as off topic. Vent elsewhere, and keep your conspiracies in your toilets.


Here is a starting list of things which hint at a non-literal Genesis, but I have certainly missed at least one:


Primarily the problem with taking Genesis literally is that the lessons therein are disguised as mere stories. The learning stops at the stories. Take Noah, a story about non-violence. To children its about animals and rainbows, but what if those children never go beyond that? What if they learn these stories only to become cruel inventive soldiers? Thats what has too often happened.

Apostle Pauls statements about there being a difference between the 'Milk' of the word and the 'Meat' implying that there ought to be more than one way of viewing it.

Fruit that gives knowledge. Honestly, people. Genesis does not even describe what the fruit looks or tastes like. Maybe that does not seem a strong evidence to some.

Strong similarity between the layout of the tabernacle and the Garden of Eden - really strong.

Complete absence of the Garden, geographically nowhere.

Euphemisms for sex (knew, nakedness, known). Its as is supposed to be one thing for children, another for adults.

Speech of the serpent biting the heel and seed of the woman.

Christian comments equating: serpent=satan=devil=sin.

Sin crouches. How can sin literally crouch by your door? Snakes can though.

Mark of Cain. Cain kills Abel. The mark says that anyone who avenges Abel will create seven times greater vengeance against themselves. The story says Cain will not be killed because of the mark, but the meaning is much more: dont be vengeful which is the most common theme in Genesis yet all the literal Bible teachers never once pount this out. I am probably the first person in forever to point it out, because I have never heard it from any pro-literal-genesis teacher. Its because literalism robs the meaning.

Jesus further comments upon

Intertextuality between stories and laws

Prophecies of Jacob in G49

Noah

Terms such as righteous which could better be called 'Verticalness' whose essence is lost to most readers. Other such words: holy, pray, satan, sacrifice. These are all variables and left undefined, yet people are fine with transliterations or old crusty misleading English, rarely even caring! These are hot coals demonstrating that just about everyone already reads Genesis non-literally even if unknowingly.

Connections with Egyptian stories older than Genesis.

The plagues of Exodus which mimick and spoof Egyptian beliefs in the Nile.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member

sealchan

Well-Known Member
This thread is for listing and discussing all those many things in Genesis which hint that it should not be taken literally by most people. I am not interested in a debate about Evolution vs. Creation. Anyone is welcome to make suggestions or objections, so I am putting this into the Biblical Debates zone.


No jokes, please, no politics, and no venting about how you feel about religion, church, atheism etc. Please no tangential topics about nephilim, racism, aliens etc. I will consider these to be off topic and request other posters to treat them as off topic. Vent elsewhere, and keep your conspiracies in your toilets.


Here is a starting list of things which hint at a non-literal Genesis, but I have certainly missed at least one:


Primarily the problem with taking Genesis literally is that the lessons therein are disguised as mere stories. The learning stops at the stories. Take Noah, a story about non-violence. To children its about animals and rainbows, but what if those children never go beyond that? What if they learn these stories only to become cruel inventive soldiers? Thats what has too often happened.

Apostle Pauls statements about there being a difference between the 'Milk' of the word and the 'Meat' implying that there ought to be more than one way of viewing it.

Fruit that gives knowledge. Honestly, people. Genesis does not even describe what the fruit looks or tastes like. Maybe that does not seem a strong evidence to some.

Strong similarity between the layout of the tabernacle and the Garden of Eden - really strong.

Complete absence of the Garden, geographically nowhere.

Euphemisms for sex (knew, nakedness, known). Its as is supposed to be one thing for children, another for adults.

Speech of the serpent biting the heel and seed of the woman.

Christian comments equating: serpent=satan=devil=sin.

Sin crouches. How can sin literally crouch by your door? Snakes can though.

Mark of Cain. Cain kills Abel. The mark says that anyone who avenges Abel will create seven times greater vengeance against themselves. The story says Cain will not be killed because of the mark, but the meaning is much more: dont be vengeful which is the most common theme in Genesis yet all the literal Bible teachers never once pount this out. I am probably the first person in forever to point it out, because I have never heard it from any pro-literal-genesis teacher. Its because literalism robs the meaning.

Jesus further comments upon

Intertextuality between stories and laws

Prophecies of Jacob in G49

Noah

Terms such as righteous which could better be called 'Verticalness' whose essence is lost to most readers. Other such words: holy, pray, satan, sacrifice. These are all variables and left undefined, yet people are fine with transliterations or old crusty misleading English, rarely even caring! These are hot coals demonstrating that just about everyone already reads Genesis non-literally even if unknowingly.

Connections with Egyptian stories older than Genesis.

The plagues of Exodus which mimick and spoof Egyptian beliefs in the Nile.

  • I am uncovering the literary similarities between stories in Genesis and the stories from the Mahabharata. So in general shared motifs between stories, especially as they come in large groups of connected motifs, show that Genesis is a literary production, a fiction based on the sacred fictions of other cultures, rather than an historical account of actual events.
  • There is also an anachronistic reference to the Ur of the Chaldees that shows the time when the story was written but not an accurate account of the time when the story is proposed to have taken place.
  • Sometimes names of people in Genesis are puns or references to the motif in the story or a word-play rather than a name that would make sense outside of the story itself.
  • The explicit reference to "the heroes of old" which is a reference to legendary times in which the story described takes place (Genesis 6).
  • God being portrayed as having a limited perspective or sharing His private thoughts or regretting His creation
  • The way stories are repeated with subtle variations that only the reader would be able to appreciate and would not be anything that the people in the story would have understood
I'm sure there are more but these are the ones that come to mind.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Thanks for the interesting Baha'i perspective.

The Baha'i perspective is that Genesis is not literal history, but at this point I simply referred to reference in Genesis that would indicate that Genesis is not literal in a time frame.

The Baha'i perspective is that the Harmony of Science and Religion is that the evolving knowledge of science.concerning the nature of our physical existence is accepted.
 
Last edited:

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
  • I am uncovering the literary similarities between stories in Genesis and the stories from the Mahabharata. So in general shared motifs between stories, especially as they come in large groups of connected motifs, show that Genesis is a literary production, a fiction based on the sacred fictions of other cultures, rather than an historical account of actual events.
  • There is also an anachronistic reference to the Ur of the Chaldees that shows the time when the story was written but not an accurate account of the time when the story is proposed to have taken place.
  • Sometimes names of people in Genesis are puns or references to the motif in the story or a word-play rather than a name that would make sense outside of the story itself.
  • The explicit reference to "the heroes of old" which is a reference to legendary times in which the story described takes place (Genesis 6).
  • God being portrayed as having a limited perspective or sharing His private thoughts or regretting His creation
  • The way stories are repeated with subtle variations that only the reader would be able to appreciate and would not be anything that the people in the story would have understood
I'm sure there are more but these are the ones that come to mind.
Nice. Thanks. Especially good points.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Complete absence of the Garden, geographically nowhere.

Eden resembles the lush gardens of Babylon, where the final form of Gen was compiled.
The snake is a tempter, part of the fertility rites in Babylonian religion in which the Israelites, forsaken by YHWEH, were tempted to partake of these rites.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This thread is for listing and discussing all those many things in Genesis which hint that it should not be taken literally by most people. I am not interested in a debate about Evolution vs. Creation. Anyone is welcome to make suggestions or objections, so I am putting this into the Biblical Debates zone.


No jokes, please, no politics, and no venting about how you feel about religion, church, atheism etc. Please no tangential topics about nephilim, racism, aliens etc. I will consider these to be off topic and request other posters to treat them as off topic. Vent elsewhere, and keep your conspiracies in your toilets.


Here is a starting list of things which hint at a non-literal Genesis, but I have certainly missed at least one:


Primarily the problem with taking Genesis literally is that the lessons therein are disguised as mere stories. The learning stops at the stories. Take Noah, a story about non-violence. To children its about animals and rainbows, but what if those children never go beyond that? What if they learn these stories only to become cruel inventive soldiers? Thats what has too often happened.

Apostle Pauls statements about there being a difference between the 'Milk' of the word and the 'Meat' implying that there ought to be more than one way of viewing it.

Fruit that gives knowledge. Honestly, people. Genesis does not even describe what the fruit looks or tastes like. Maybe that does not seem a strong evidence to some.

Strong similarity between the layout of the tabernacle and the Garden of Eden - really strong.

Complete absence of the Garden, geographically nowhere.

Euphemisms for sex (knew, nakedness, known). Its as is supposed to be one thing for children, another for adults.

Speech of the serpent biting the heel and seed of the woman.

Christian comments equating: serpent=satan=devil=sin.

Sin crouches. How can sin literally crouch by your door? Snakes can though.

Mark of Cain. Cain kills Abel. The mark says that anyone who avenges Abel will create seven times greater vengeance against themselves. The story says Cain will not be killed because of the mark, but the meaning is much more: dont be vengeful which is the most common theme in Genesis yet all the literal Bible teachers never once pount this out. I am probably the first person in forever to point it out, because I have never heard it from any pro-literal-genesis teacher. Its because literalism robs the meaning.

Jesus further comments upon

Intertextuality between stories and laws

Prophecies of Jacob in G49

Noah

Terms such as righteous which could better be called 'Verticalness' whose essence is lost to most readers. Other such words: holy, pray, satan, sacrifice. These are all variables and left undefined, yet people are fine with transliterations or old crusty misleading English, rarely even caring! These are hot coals demonstrating that just about everyone already reads Genesis non-literally even if unknowingly.

Connections with Egyptian stories older than Genesis.

The plagues of Exodus which mimick and spoof Egyptian beliefs in the Nile.
So how did Cain find a wife in the land of Nod if he was the offspring of the first man and women (Adam and Eve) on earth?

Genesis 4:16
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Maybe Eve had more children that were not mentioned in the Bible.
(just a thought :))

From the Book of Jubilees chapter 4: And in the sixth 9 week [134-40 A.M.] he [ADAM] begat his daughter Azura. And Cain took Awan his sister to be his wife and she bare him Enoch at the close of the fourth jubilee. [190-196 A.M.] And in the first year of the first week of the fifth jubilee, [197 A.M.] houses were built on the earth, and Cain built a city, and called its name after the name of 10, 11 his son Enoch. And Adam knew Eve his wife and she bare yet nine sons. And in the fifth week of the fifth jubilee [225-31 A.M.] Seth took Azura his sister to be his wife, and in the fourth (year of the sixth 12,13 week) [235 A.M.] she bare him Enos. He began to call on the name of the Lord on the earth.

And in the seventh jubilee in the third week [309-15 A.M.] Enos took Noam his sister to be his wife, and she bare him a son 14 in the third year of the fifth week, and he called his name Kenan. And at the close of the eighth jubilee [325, 386-3992 A.M.] Kenan took Mualeleth his sister to be his wife, and she bare him a son in the ninth jubilee, 15 in the first week in the third year of this week, [395 A.M] and he called his name Mahalalel. And in the second week of the tenth jubilee [449-55 A.M.] Mahalalel took unto him to wife DinaH, the daughter of Barakiel the daughter of his father’s brother, and she bare him a son in the third week in the sixth year, [461 A.M.] and he called his name Jared, for in his days the angels of the Lord
descended on the earth, those who are named the Watchers, that they should instruct the children of men, and that they should do 16 judgment and uprightness on the earth. And in the eleventh jubilee [512-18 A.M.] Jared took to himself a wife, and her name was Baraka, the daughter of Rasujal, a daughter of his father’s brother, in the fourth week of this jubilee, [522 A.M.] and she bare him a son in the fifth week, in the fourth year of the jubilee, and
 
Last edited:

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe Eve had more children that were not mentioned in the Bible.
(just a thought :))

Its an intriguing thought. So Adam and Eve don't just have Cain and Abel, but other children too, that are not mentioned at all in genesis. The other children go away, we don't why. If there are sisters then presumably they would be accompanied by at least one other brother who can act as hunter, gatherer and protector for the sister(s). But then wouldn't those sister(s) also become the wife(s) of the protector brother? Maybe Cain will go to the land of Nod, kill off another brother, so he can breed with his sister. But then why didn't they all just stay together as a family or group?

Another much more plausible explanation is that its all an allegorical creation myth as all cultures have that have been passed down through the generations through oral traditions and finally written down at a later stage, perhaps during the Babylonian exile of the Hebrew people.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Its an intriguing thought. So Adam and Eve don't just have Cain and Abel, but other children too, that are not mentioned at all in genesis. The other children go away, we don't why. If there are sisters then presumably they would be accompanied by at least one other brother who can act as hunter, gatherer and protector for the sister(s). But then wouldn't those sister(s) also become the wife(s) of the protector brother? Maybe Cain will go to the land of Nod, kill off another brother, so he can breed with his sister. But then why didn't they all just stay together as a family or group?

Another much more plausible explanation is that its all an allegorical creation myth as all cultures have that have been passed down through the generations through oral traditions and finally written down at a later stage, perhaps during the Babylonian exile of the Hebrew people.

The Book of Jubilees chapter 4; 9; And in the sixth 9 week [134-40 A.M.] he begat his daughter Azura. And Cain took Awan his sister to be his wife and she bare him Enoch at the close of the fourth jubilee. [190-196 A.M.] And in the first year of the first week of the fifth jubilee, [197 A.M.] houses were built on the earth, and Cain built a city, and called its name after the name of

10, 11 his son Enoch. And Adam knew Eve his wife and she bare yet nine sons. And in the fifth week of the fifth jubilee [225-31 A.M.] Seth took Azura his sister to be his wife, and in the fourth (year of the sixth 12,13 week) [235 A.M.] she bare him Enos. He began to call on the name of the Lord on the earth.

And in the seventh jubilee in the third week [309-15 A.M.] Enos took Noam his sister to be his wife, and she bare him a son 14 in the third year of the fifth week, and he called his name Kenan. And at the close of the eighth jubilee [325, 386-3992 A.M.] Kenan took Mualeleth his sister to be his wife, and she bare him a son in the ninth jubilee, 15 in the first week in the third year of this week, [395 A.M] and he called his name Mahalalel. And in the second week of the tenth jubilee [449-55 A.M.] Mahalalel took unto him to wife DinaH, the daughter of Barakiel the daughter of his father’s brother, and she bare him a son in the third week in the sixth year, [461 A.M.] and he called his name Jared, for in his days the angels of the Lord

descended on the earth, those who are named the Watchers, that they should instruct the children of men, and that they should do 16 judgment and uprightness on the earth. And in the eleventh jubilee [512-18 A.M.] Jared took to himself a wife, and her name was Baraka, the daughter of Rasujal, a daughter of his father’s brother, in the fourth week of this jubilee, [522 A.M.] and she bare him a son in the fifth week, in the fourth year of the jubilee, and 17 he called his name Enoch. And he was the first among men that are born on earth who learnt writing and knowledge and wisdom and who wrote down the signs of heaven according to the order of their months in a book, that men might know the seasons of the years according to the order of 18 their separate months. And he was the first to write a testimony and he testified to the sons of men among the generations of the earth, and recounted the weeks of the jubilees, and made known to them the days of the years, and set in order the months and recounted the Sabbaths of the years 19 as we made (them), known to him. And what was and what will be he saw in a vision of his sleep, as it will happen to the children of men throughout their generations until the day of judgment; he saw and understood everything, and wrote his testimony, and placed the testimony on earth for all 20 the children of men and for their generations.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The Book of Jubilees chapter 4; 9; And in the sixth 9 week [134-40 A.M.] he begat his daughter Azura. And Cain took Awan his sister to be his wife and she bare him Enoch at the close of the fourth jubilee. [190-196 A.M.] And in the first year of the first week of the fifth jubilee, [197 A.M.] houses were built on the earth, and Cain built a city, and called its name after the name of

10, 11 his son Enoch. And Adam knew Eve his wife and she bare yet nine sons. And in the fifth week of the fifth jubilee [225-31 A.M.] Seth took Azura his sister to be his wife, and in the fourth (year of the sixth 12,13 week) [235 A.M.] she bare him Enos. He began to call on the name of the Lord on the earth.

And in the seventh jubilee in the third week [309-15 A.M.] Enos took Noam his sister to be his wife, and she bare him a son 14 in the third year of the fifth week, and he called his name Kenan. And at the close of the eighth jubilee [325, 386-3992 A.M.] Kenan took Mualeleth his sister to be his wife, and she bare him a son in the ninth jubilee, 15 in the first week in the third year of this week, [395 A.M] and he called his name Mahalalel. And in the second week of the tenth jubilee [449-55 A.M.] Mahalalel took unto him to wife DinaH, the daughter of Barakiel the daughter of his father’s brother, and she bare him a son in the third week in the sixth year, [461 A.M.] and he called his name Jared, for in his days the angels of the Lord

descended on the earth, those who are named the Watchers, that they should instruct the children of men, and that they should do 16 judgment and uprightness on the earth. And in the eleventh jubilee [512-18 A.M.] Jared took to himself a wife, and her name was Baraka, the daughter of Rasujal, a daughter of his father’s brother, in the fourth week of this jubilee, [522 A.M.] and she bare him a son in the fifth week, in the fourth year of the jubilee, and 17 he called his name Enoch. And he was the first among men that are born on earth who learnt writing and knowledge and wisdom and who wrote down the signs of heaven according to the order of their months in a book, that men might know the seasons of the years according to the order of 18 their separate months. And he was the first to write a testimony and he testified to the sons of men among the generations of the earth, and recounted the weeks of the jubilees, and made known to them the days of the years, and set in order the months and recounted the Sabbaths of the years 19 as we made (them), known to him. And what was and what will be he saw in a vision of his sleep, as it will happen to the children of men throughout their generations until the day of judgment; he saw and understood everything, and wrote his testimony, and placed the testimony on earth for all 20 the children of men and for their generations.
The book of Jubilees is not considered a canonical work within most of Judaism or Christianity. It was probably written between 100-200 BC in part to explain the obvious problems and contradictions of taking genesis literally.

Book of Jubilees - Wikipedia
 

Jedster

Well-Known Member
The book of Jubilees is not considered a canonical work within most of Judaism or Christianity. It was probably written between 100-200 BC in part to explain the obvious problems and contradictions of taking genesis literally.

Book of Jubilees - Wikipedia

Yes...but :)
to me, as non-believer in the absoluteness of the Bible, official cannons mean very little.
so, the Book of Jubilees , as quoted by @The Anointed , makes much sense to me as a reasonable explanation.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
So how did Cain find a wife in the land of Nod if he was the offspring of the first man and women (Adam and Eve) on earth?

Genesis 4:16

The bible says the whole earth was flooded. Only trouble is we judge that statement by our own definitions. The earth was a very small place in the Bronze Age. The earth in the Gospels was the Roman empire (not the pagans, Parthians etc..)
We used to think the universe was everything there is - now we talk about many universes. That definition changed over 20 years. The bible goes back about 4,000 years.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
The book of Jubilees is not considered a canonical work within most of Judaism or Christianity. It was probably written between 100-200 BC in part to explain the obvious problems and contradictions of taking genesis literally.

Book of Jubilees - Wikipedia

So Wikipedia is your infallible source, is it?

In the Jewish canon and the Roman translation of the Jewish canon [The OT] only twice is the father of Shelah recorded: In Genesis 11: 12; where it is written, "When Arpachshad was 35, he had a son 'Shelah.'" Then in 1 Chronicles 1: 18; "Arpachshad was the father of Shelah."

But in Luke 3: 35-36; we are told that Arpachshad is the father of Cainan/Kainam who is the father of Shelah.

Fom the Bok of Jubilees [Chapter 8]

1 In the twenty-ninth jubilee, in the first week, [1373 A.M.] in the beginning thereof Arpachshad took to himself a wife and her name was Rasu’eja, the daughter of Susan, the daughter of Elam, and she 2 bare him a son in the third year in this week, [1375 A.M.] and he called his name Kainam. And the son grew, and his father taught him writing, and he went to seek for himself a place where he might seize for 3 himself a city. And he found a writing which former (generations) had carved on the rock, and he read what was thereon, and he transcribed it and sinned owing to it; for it contained the teaching of the Watchers in accordance with which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and 4 stars in all the signs of heaven. And he wrote it down and said nothing regarding it; for he was 5 afraid to speak to Noah about it lest he should be angry with him on account of it. And in the thirtieth jubilee, [1429 A.M.] in the second week, in the first year thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was Melka, the daughter of Madai, the son of Japheth, and in the fourth year [1432 A.M.] he begat a son, and 6 called his name Shelah; for he said: ’Truly I have been sent.’

From the Septuagint Genesis 11: 12;; "When Arpachshad was 135 he begot Cainan, etc."

Who would accept the erroneous Jewish canon which was translated by Jerome for the Roman canon, which states that Israel was in the land of Egypt for 430 years to the day..
The book of Jubilees is not considered a canonical work within most of Judaism or Christianity. It was probably written between 100-200 BC in part to explain the obvious problems and contradictions of taking genesis literally.

Book of Jubilees - Wikipedia
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes...but :)
to me, as non-believer in the absoluteness of the Bible, official cannons mean very little.
so, the Book of Jubilees , as quoted by @The Anointed , makes much sense to me as a reasonable explanation.
We all choose the narrative and explanation that works best for each of us.

The book of Jubilee appears to be myth to explain a myth. Let’s have talking serpents, the first woman created out of a rib, a young earth, and animals throughout the world walking side by side to escape a flood that covers the whole earth. It’s wonderful to imagine...
 
Top