Works aren't necessary for salvation, in fact, you are not supposed to be doing "works", at all

[Desert Snake]

Works means the previous law, that was revised and changed, sometimes abolished, altogether.

Works, are what you are not supposed to be doing, not what you should be doing.

 

[JoshuaTree]

If God is God and in absolute control of all that was, all that is, and all that ever shall be then we can't take credit for all the "things" we do as they are part of God's perfect plan. God frustrated man by creating us all perfect but lacking the gift of faith to realize it, this is original sin. The realization that God is in control is the Kingdom of Heaven, through the gift of faith we open our eyes and realize that God has always been in control and sin, death, and the power of the evil never really were... no epic battle, no hell fire, no tormentors ... vanquished through the gift of faith at a time and place of God's choosing. What better way for God to show His love then to open our eyes to the perfection of His plan.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Works means the previous law, that was revised and changed, sometimes abolished, altogether.
Works, are what you are not supposed to be doing, not what you should be doing.

I find James 2:26 B sums it up clearly that faith (belief) without works is: dead.
Jesus said at John 5:17 that he (Jesus) works. One work Jesus will do is found at John 5:22 that of judging.
What Jesus bases his judgement work on is found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
How the humble ' sheep ' and haughty ' goats' treat (works they do) towards Jesus' spiritual brothers of Matthew 25:40.
Jesus instructed what type of work to do at Matthew 24:14 and Acts of the Apostles 1:8 but to proclaim the 'spiritual work' about the good news of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 telling it everywhere on Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What better way for God to show His love then to open our eyes to the perfection of His plan.

... and I find 'the perfection of His purpose' is mentioned at Revelation 22:2 that mankind on Earth will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the purpose of healing for earth's nations.
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come ! Come and bring healing to earth's nations - 1 Corinthians 15:26.

 

[Desert Snake]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[KJV]

 

[Desert Snake]

One isn't actually doing anything, for ones salvation, aside from faith, since,
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them.
[KJV]

 

[Desert Snake]

Whether works means the same thing as, the previous law, is contextual. Sometimes it seems to mean something different, so,
Romans 4:2
In this instance, it could mean both, or either,

However...
There is no question that it means both interpretations.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[KJV]

And here,

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[KJV]

 

[Faithofchristian]

Works means the previous law, that was revised and changed, sometimes abolished, altogether.

Works, are what you are not supposed to be doing, not what you should be doing.

Then how is Christ Jesus to determine who's going into his kingdom and who is not.

Let's look at works and salvation.

Let's say you have this train and there are two rails, Now if you take up either one of those rails, that train is going no where.

So likewise salvation without works is going no where.
And works without salvation is going no where.
Why else do you suppose Christ Jesus said in the book of Revelation 22:12
" And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be"

It lookes likes Christ Jesus will reward every man according to his work.

So works does matter.
Have you ever heard the expression.
Actions speak louder than words.
It's also your works speak louder than words.

 

[iam1me]

Works means the previous law, that was revised and changed, sometimes abolished, altogether.

Works, are what you are not supposed to be doing, not what you should be doing.

Matthew 5:17-20 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jeremiah 31:33 This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

1 John 5:2-3 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome

James 2:14-20 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd]">[d]?

 

[metis]

The key is "good works under the law", whereas Jesus' approach was that it's the "law of love" that counts, imo. Let me draw a parallel to demonstrate my point.

When we have young children that we want to have clean up their room, we have to say things like "This goes there. That goes over here. ...". IOW ,we have to specify each item and where it is to go. The Laws as found in Torah do just that. However, when kids get older, all we have to do is to say "Clean up your mess!", and they will undoubtedly obey.

So, what Jesus is essentially saying, imo, is "Have faith in God, clean up your act, and act out of love and compassion and fairness towards all". Both Jesus' commandments and Jewish Law are, therefore, valid.

But a problem occurred, namely that with Gentiles (mostly "God-Fearers" probably at first) coming into the early Church, how can the Church operate as "one body" but have two different groups operating under two sets of rules? The solution: end the requirements of the Jewish laws and replace them with what Jesus specifically taught since he was more important than the specifics of the Law but not what he believed the intent of the Law was about-- the "law of love".

That's my take at least.

 

[Desert Snake]

The key is "good works under the law", whereas Jesus' approach was that it's the "law of love" that counts, imo. Let me draw a parallel to demonstrate my point.

When we have young children that we want to have clean up their room, we have to say things like "This goes there. That goes over here. ...". IOW ,we have to specify each item and where it is to go. The Laws as found in Torah do just that. However, when kids get older, all we have to do is to say "Clean up your mess!", and they will undoubtedly obey.

So, what Jesus is essentially saying, imo, is "Have faith in God, clean up your act, and act out of love and compassion and fairness towards all". Both Jesus' commandments and Jewish Law are, therefore, valid.

But a problem occurred, namely that with Gentiles (mostly "God-Fearers" probably at first) coming into the early Church, how can the Church operate as "one body" but have two different groups operating under two sets of rules? The solution: end the requirements of the Jewish laws and replace them with what Jesus specifically taught since he was more important than the specifics of the Law but not what he believed the intent of the Law was about-- the "law of love".

That's my take at least.

I also don't believe that a 'modern interpretation', works, here. They had some laws that became more strict, some that became less strict, and there was more than one belief, in Israel. In other words, ideas that may be thought of as standard, concerning these words, like 'works', may not have even applied, at the time.

 

[metis]

I also don't believe that a 'modern interpretation', works, here.

Mine is hardly a "modern interpretation". Instead, it's more based on trying to make sense of why some verses have Jesus stating that the Law (all 613 Commandments) are valid, and yet in other verses he cites the end of the Law. IMO, what he's done is to take the Law at an end that goes beyond even what the Hillel School taught while at the same time not being anti the Law. And then when we look at Paul's take on the Law, this makes sense in this context.

They had some laws that became more strict, some that became less strict, and there was more than one belief, in Israel.

Of course, but that doesn't really deal with issue at hand.

In other words, ideas that may be thought of as standard, concerning these words, like 'works', may not have even applied, at the time.

The Law was to be lived out, thus not just a bunch of nice thoughts or politically correct beliefs alone. IOW, Judaism is a lifestyle and not just a bunch of nice beliefs.

Therefore, in order to conform to the spirit and intent of the Law, Jesus' message also has to be considered a lifestyle, also not just a bunch of nice beliefs. And this fits into the actual definition of "agape", which is Koine Greek for an all-encompassing love, thus acting as an active noun. IOW, one doesn't just have agape-- one lives agape.

Therefore, Jesus' position seems to be compatible with what some scholars call the "Love Pharisees", namely a very liberal school of Pharisees, fairly common around the Galilee religion and the northern coast of eretz Israel, that taught that the purpose of the Law was compassion and justice (fairness) towards all, regardless of nationality (a strong Hellenistic concept), thus the "law of love".

 

[Desert Snake]

The Law was to be lived out, thus not just a bunch of nice thoughts or politically correct beliefs alone. IOW, Judaism is a lifestyle and not just a bunch of nice beliefs.

....what are you talking about?...not just a bunch of nice beliefs?...what does that mean?

A bunch of nice thoughts? What the are you talking about?

 

[Desert Snake]

Then how is Christ Jesus to determine who's going into his kingdom and who is not.

Let's look at works and salvation.

Let's say you have this train and there are two rails, Now if you take up either one of those rails, that train is going no where.

So likewise salvation without works is going no where.
And works without salvation is going no where.
Why else do you suppose Christ Jesus said in the book of Revelation 22:12
" And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be"

It lookes likes Christ Jesus will reward every man according to his work.

So works does matter.
Have you ever heard the expression.
Actions speak louder than words.
It's also your works speak louder than words.

Except that there aren't two rails, there's one.
Ephesians 2:9
Romans 3:27

 

[Faithofchristian]

Except that there aren't two rails, there's one.
Ephesians 2:9
Romans 3:27

Have you any idea what Romans 3:27 is about ?

Have you any idea what Ephesians 2:9 is about ?

Let's start with Romans 3:27, Had you back up to beginning of the chapter and pick up what the subject is about, instead of jumping towards the end of the chapter, you might haved found out things, are not what you think they are.

Ok, now that being said, let's start at the beginning of chapter 3. Note that in
Verse 1, Circumcision being the subject.

Now when those in Israel Circumcised themselves, it took some work to cut themselves in Circumcision themselves.

What Paul is illustrating here, is that the works done in Circumcision profited Israel nothing.

It's not the Circumcision of the flesh, but the Circumcision of the heart that God looks at.
So in Verse 27 that you brought up,

Verse 27--"Where is boasting then ?
It is excluded. By what law? Of works?
Nay; but by the law of faith"

So here we find the law of works, which is the law of Circumcision. This law is excluded by what law, The law of faith.

You see, back God had Abraham to Circumcised himself to show his faith in God.
But then a thousand years after Abraham, the people of Israel, started to put more faith in their works of Circumcision, than their faith in God.
So now God working thru Paul is trying to straighten Israel out. It's not the works of Circumcision God looks at, but where their faith is at in God.

So a person can Circumcised themselves all day long, it will not mean a thing to God, if their faith in God is not in the right place.

Now for Ephesians 2:9 had you read the chapter and pick the subject and Article. You found the same as with Romans 3:27.

That Circumcision is the subject being spoken of.
Ephesians 2:9--"Not of works, lest any man should boast"

The works being spoke of, is the law of Circumcision.
Note ( lest any man should boast)

In the Circumcision of the flesh, lead Israel to boast, That being Circumised of the flesh like made them someone special.

But in God's eyes, it made them nothing.
All because where Israel boast in the flesh of Circumcision. And not in faith in God.

Where the works of Circumcision in the cutting of the flesh, Profited Israel nothing.

Had Israel put more worship and faith in God, than their worship in cutting the flesh in Circumcision that got them no where.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[KJV]

I find a lot of people think being a good-Samaritan type is the works that will save them.
Even if a person is doing the ' spiritual works ' of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 that is Not what can save them.
God's undeserved kindness in sending Jesus to Earth for us is what is salvation.
To show appreciation for that salvation (delivery / rescue) we follow Jesus' instruction found at Matthew 28:18-20.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Then how is Christ Jesus to determine who's going into his kingdom and who is not.
Let's look at works and salvation.
It lookes likes Christ Jesus will reward every man according to his work.

Since those called to heavenly life are called Jesus ' brothers ', then who does the calling is Not Jesus but his God.
ALL who follow Jesus would do the same spiritual work of Luke 4:43 to tell others about the good news of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 being in the hands of Christ Jesus for one-thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
So, that would include those called to Heaven (Luke 22:28-30), and those who are called to be part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth. Inherit everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as per Revelation 22:2.
That is when mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of earth's nations under Christ.

 

[metis]

....what are you talking about?...not just a bunch of nice beliefs?...what does that mean?

A bunch of nice thoughts? What the are you talking about?

IOW, Jesus' message was more than just a set of beliefs but was also a call to action.

 

[Desert Snake]

IOW, Jesus' message was more than just a set of beliefs but was also a call to action.

Presuming I believe that Jesus is correct, I follow His religion.

Not a bad presumption, and He is telling me to worship God, so forth.

Then , Paul, says, belief is what the nature if salvation, pertains, to.
Then, that is a statement, all in itself. The beliefs correlate to some of the actions, however, they are not separate things.

If they aren't separate things, then how do works, save ?

 

[Desert Snake]

Have you any idea what Romans 3:27 is about ?

Have you any idea what Ephesians 2:9 is about ?

Let's start with Romans 3:27, Had you back up to beginning of the chapter and pick up what the subject is about, instead of jumping towards the end of the chapter, you might haved found out things, are not what you think they are.

Ok, now that being said, let's start at the beginning of chapter 3. Note that in
Verse 1, Circumcision being the subject.

Now when those in Israel Circumcised themselves, it took some work to cut themselves in Circumcision themselves.

What Paul is illustrating here, is that the works done in Circumcision profited Israel nothing.

It's not the Circumcision of the flesh, but the Circumcision of the heart that God looks at.
So in Verse 27 that you brought up,

Verse 27--"Where is boasting then ?
It is excluded. By what law? Of works?
Nay; but by the law of faith"

So here we find the law of works, which is the law of Circumcision. This law is excluded by what law, The law of faith.

You see, back God had Abraham to Circumcised himself to show his faith in God.
But then a thousand years after Abraham, the people of Israel, started to put more faith in their works of Circumcision, than their faith in God.
So now God working thru Paul is trying to straighten Israel out. It's not the works of Circumcision God looks at, but where their faith is at in God.

So a person can Circumcised themselves all day long, it will not mean a thing to God, if their faith in God is not in the right place.

Now for Ephesians 2:9 had you read the chapter and pick the subject and Article. You found the same as with Romans 3:27.

That Circumcision is the subject being spoken of.
Ephesians 2:9--"Not of works, lest any man should boast"

The works being spoke of, is the law of Circumcision.
Note ( lest any man should boast)

In the Circumcision of the flesh, lead Israel to boast, That being Circumised of the flesh like made them someone special.

But in God's eyes, it made them nothing.
All because where Israel boast in the flesh of Circumcision. And not in faith in God.

Where the works of Circumcision in the cutting of the flesh, Profited Israel nothing.

Had Israel put more worship and faith in God, than their worship in cutting the flesh in Circumcision that got them no where.

Same word used, 'works'.

So, what are you saying?