.....hence the traditional Catholic insistence on the importance of good works, as well as faith.
To be fair to Protestants though, my understanding is most would say that a person who professes to believe everything that is required, but does not do any good works, cannot in truth have genuine belief.
Maybe for some. However, I grew up Lutheran and the teachings were quite clear. Actions do not matter, only beliefs. Humans were divided into strict categories of "believers" and "unbelievers." Believers go to heaven, and unbelievers go to hell. This is what I take serious issue with. Why does one's belief or non-belief in a set of propositions matter? Further, why are actions not taken into account?
If that is your biggest problem I think you are a long way along to being a Christian. I do not talk for Protestants or even most Christians, only for myself.
I feel you are right and understand what I feel being a Christian is all about. I would change one thing in what you said. Instead of "belief is what determines one's ultimate character." I would say one's ultimate character is what one believes or even it is one and the same. If your character is to love those around you, to help those in need of help, and to have empathy for those in pain; then that would be what you believe is right. If that is what you believe that would be a lot of what Christ taught, and would make that person Christian in my sight.
Believing that Jesus was Christ, that He was crucified, and He was Resurrected; but "If you're a terrible, nasty, judgmental person" I don't think that makes you one bit Christian.
I appreciate your response, but you seem to be avoiding the issue. I don't think belief and character are one in the same. I couldn't care less what someone thinks about a guy who may or may not have existed 2000 years ago. I care about how people treat others. This idea that faith in the supernatural gets you into heaven is ridiculous. Blind faith is not a virtue.
My biggest issue with the Christian religion, especially the Protestant Christian religion, is the idea that belief is what determines one's ultimate character. Ultimately, the content of your character and your behavior toward others doesn't mean a thing in Protestant Christianity. If you're a kind, loving, empathetic person who doesn't believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then, according to Christian teachings, you're going to burn in Hell. If you're a terrible, nasty, judgmental person who does believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then according to Christian teachings, you're going to Heaven. Of course I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment for finite crimes, but that's another issue. The primary point I'm trying to make is that belief should not matter. What matters is how you treat others. A religion that places more importance on belief than action is not one I want to be a part of.
I think one misconception you are having is that, it is Christians who are condemning you to hell. Scriptures are clear that God is the one who will have the final say in where you go, not Christians. And belief only forms part of your character, not its entirety. You get good Christians and bad Christians, your religious affiliation doesn't automatically make you a good person IMHO.
I think one misconception you are having is that, it is Christians who are condemning you to hell. Scriptures are clear that God is the one who will have the final say in where you go, not Christians. And belief only forms part of your character, not its entirety. You get good Christians and bad Christians, your religious affiliation doesn't automatically make you a good person IMHO.
Why should belief form *any* part of your character? BTW, believing in virgin birth, miracles, and a resurrection is not a virtue. It's called being naive and gullible.
It means that the Bible's authors were often unclear about what they meant, so we don't know, and also, that they contradict one another making just about any interpretation as valid or invalid as the next. Pick the scriptures you like, interpret them as you choose, and disregard whatever other scriptures contradict that position.
If your character is to love those around you, to help those in need of help, and to have empathy for those in pain; then that would be what you believe is right. If that is what you believe that would be a lot of what Christ taught, and would make that person Christian in my sight.
Add reason, skepticism, and empiricism to the Golden Rule, and you have Secular Humanism. Christianity has no claim to the Golden Rule. What defines a Christian is his or her belief that there is a certain specific god that once roamed the earth, that we each have an immortal soul, and that that god will salvage or condemn those immortal souls to paradise or perdition according to its belief. This god wants a chorus of praisers to proclaim its greatness forever, and will reward those willing to do so by allowing them to do so for eternity, the remainder being persecuted - kind of like a certain president.
All you have to do is look at the first 4 of the 10 commandments... again... that is THE FIRST 4, meaning the top ones, the first, assumedly the "most important" to see how easily these "stupid Christians" (your words, not mine) have been so easily duped:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
ALL of the first 4 commandments have everything to do with belief... and NOTHING to do with how you treat your fellow man. It's not until you get to the fifth and it starts talking about honoring your mother and father do we get to prescription for human-to-human interaction.
Now, you tell me... where does that list position belief with respect to treatment of your fellow man?
My biggest issue with the Christian religion, especially the Protestant Christian religion, is the idea that belief is what determines one's ultimate character. Ultimately, the content of your character and your behavior toward others doesn't mean a thing in Protestant Christianity. If you're a kind, loving, empathetic person who doesn't believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then, according to Christian teachings, you're going to burn in Hell. If you're a terrible, nasty, judgmental person who does believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then according to Christian teachings, you're going to Heaven. Of course I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment for finite crimes, but that's another issue. The primary point I'm trying to make is that belief should not matter. What matters is how you treat others. A religion that places more importance on belief than action is not one I want to be a part of.
Although I agree with your objections, there were also such type of Protestants in the Netherlands who have risked or sacrificed their lives for hiding Jews in their homes from the Nazi's because they believed God demanded it from them knowing that it would not help them in any way to get into heaven and doubting if God would consider them as true believers.
Why should belief form *any* part of your character? BTW, believing in virgin birth, miracles, and a resurrection is not a virtue. It's called being naive and gullible.
I'm not quite sure why you would compare a religion's doctrine with virtues... I was referring to some moral values you could take from the Bible, such as the sacredness of marriage, helping the unprivileged, and generally doing good to others.
You're going to argue that you don't need a religious book to tell you what your morals should be, but can you explain to me why divorcing your wife is wrong according to the naturalistic worldview? If you tell me that it's obvious that you should respect and love your wife, that is not something you derived from your agnostic or naturalistic worldview. There's nothing wrong with using the Bible as a basis for your morals and you don't even need to believe in the doctrines that are listed in there. Mahatma Gandhi was not even a Christian, but he often read Jesus' Sermon on the mount, and appreciated his moral teachings.
You might call me naive and gullible, but you are being extremely optimistic that the perceived world is all there is to reality.
Isn't there considerable diversity within Christianity regarding the points in the OP? I'm not up on all the various flavors of Christianity, but I'd like to think I'm at least dimly aware of this.
I think one misconception you are having is that, it is Christians who are condemning you to hell. Scriptures are clear that God is the one who will have the final say in where you go, not Christians.
The thing I don't like about Christianity is it does not reflect the way things are in reality. It creates a fantastical world that people happen to believe and live in. I don't see how that could be entirely healthy to live life in such a way.
Would you mind being a bit more specific? How does it create a fantastical world and how is it unhealthy to live in such a world? I don't see my belief in Jesus Christ or the way I have chosen to live my life as the slightest bit unhealthy, and I definitely don't see the world through rose-colored glasses, if that's what you're implying.
I'm not quite sure why you would compare a religion's doctrine with virtues... I was referring to some moral values you could take from the Bible, such as the sacredness of marriage, helping the unprivileged, and generally doing good to others.
You're going to argue that you don't need a religious book to tell you what your morals should be, but can you explain to me why divorcing your wife is wrong according to the naturalistic worldview? If you tell me that it's obvious that you should respect and love your wife, that is not something you derived from your agnostic or naturalistic worldview. There's nothing wrong with using the Bible as a basis for your morals and you don't even need to believe in the doctrines that are listed in there. Mahatma Gandhi was not even a Christian, but he often read Jesus' Sermon on the mount, and appreciated his moral teachings.
You might call me naive and gullible, but you are being extremely optimistic that the perceived world is all there is to reality.
I don't believe in objective morality. I do believe that humans have evolved the ability to distinguish between "right" and "wrong" in much the same way we've evolved the ability to know that donuts smell good and dog poop smells bad. However, I don't believe that these are "facts" in the same sense that 1+1=2 is a fact. I believe that they are evolved traits. Also, I never made the claim that the natural world is all there is to reality. I'm a devout agnostic, remember? I'm not making any claim one way or the other, but as a Christian, YOU are, yet you have failed to demonstrate the existence of the non-physical universe, so why should I believe in it?
My biggest issue with the Christian religion, especially the Protestant Christian religion, is the idea that belief is what determines one's ultimate character. Ultimately, the content of your character and your behavior toward others doesn't mean a thing in Protestant Christianity. If you're a kind, loving, empathetic person who doesn't believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then, according to Christian teachings, you're going to burn in Hell. If you're a terrible, nasty, judgmental person who does believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then according to Christian teachings, you're going to Heaven. Of course I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment for finite crimes, but that's another issue. The primary point I'm trying to make is that belief should not matter. What matters is how you treat others. A religion that places more importance on belief than action is not one I want to be a part of.
Maybe for some. However, I grew up Lutheran and the teachings were quite clear. Actions do not matter, only beliefs. Humans were divided into strict categories of "believers" and "unbelievers." Believers go to heaven, and unbelievers go to hell. This is what I take serious issue with. Why does one's belief or non-belief in a set of propositions matter? Further, why are actions not taken into account?
Well I can't answer for what you may have been taught. All I can do is point out that it does not conform to the teaching of a number of fairly significant churches.
My biggest issue with the Christian religion, especially the Protestant Christian religion, is the idea that belief is what determines one's ultimate character. Ultimately, the content of your character and your behavior toward others doesn't mean a thing in Protestant Christianity. If you're a kind, loving, empathetic person who doesn't believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then, according to Christian teachings, you're going to burn in Hell. If you're a terrible, nasty, judgmental person who does believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then according to Christian teachings, you're going to Heaven. Of course I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment for finite crimes, but that's another issue. The primary point I'm trying to make is that belief should not matter. What matters is how you treat others. A religion that places more importance on belief than action is not one I want to be a part of.
My biggest issue with the Christian religion, especially the Protestant Christian religion, is the idea that belief is what determines one's ultimate character. Ultimately, the content of your character and your behavior toward others doesn't mean a thing in Protestant Christianity. If you're a kind, loving, empathetic person who doesn't believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then, according to Christian teachings, you're going to burn in Hell. If you're a terrible, nasty, judgmental person who does believe in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, then according to Christian teachings, you're going to Heaven. Of course I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment for finite crimes, but that's another issue. The primary point I'm trying to make is that belief should not matter. What matters is how you treat others. A religion that places more importance on belief than action is not one I want to be a part of.
I think that is an interesting way of looking at the situation, and I agree that it is most important to have action.
In fact this is emphasized throughout the teachings in the Bible.
Matthew 7:21-27 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’ 24“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock.25And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.27And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all.
James 1:22-25 22However, become doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his own face in a mirror. 24For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. 25But the one who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.
James 2:14-26 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead. 18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend. 24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
However, according to what the scriptures say, it seems equally important to have right, or truthful teachings. Without this, one may do the best they know to show love, but fall short.
This is seen from the scriptures that show that one must first hear the message before they can have faith.
So knowledge must be present to enable one to know true love. God is love.
John 8:31, 32 31 Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
John 13:35
By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”
Romans 10:13-17 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!” 16 Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard from us?” 17 So faith follows the thing heard. In turn, what is heard is through the word about Christ.
In most cases lack of love, and improper treatment of others is an indication of lack of good teachings.
Matthew 16:6, 11, 12; 1 Corinthians 15:33; Galatians 5:9; 2 Timothy 2:16, 17
I think that is an interesting way of looking at the situation, and I agree that it is most important to have action.
In fact this is emphasized throughout the teachings in the Bible.
Matthew 7:21-27 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’ 24“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock.25And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.27And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all.
James 1:22-25 22However, become doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his own face in a mirror. 24For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. 25But the one who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.
James 2:14-26 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead. 18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend. 24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
However, according to what the scriptures say, it seems equally important to have right, or truthful teachings. Without this, one may do the best they know to show love, but fall short.
This is seen from the scriptures that show that one must first hear the message before they can have faith.
So knowledge must be present to enable one to know true love. God is love.
John 8:31, 32 31 Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
John 13:35
By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”
Romans 10:13-17 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!” 16 Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard from us?” 17 So faith follows the thing heard. In turn, what is heard is through the word about Christ.
In most cases lack of love, and improper treatment of others is an indication of lack of good teachings.
Matthew 16:6, 11, 12; 1 Corinthians 15:33; Galatians 5:9; 2 Timothy 2:16, 17
So would you say that you believe an atheist who is a kind and moral person who simply cannot convince himself that the claims of Christianity are true would go to Heaven? BTW, if this is your view, it's a minority view among Christians.
And He also told His disciples that they should love one another and that this is what would identify them as His followers:
John 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." He didn't say, "People will recognize you as my followers because you've got all the answers and are better than everyone else."
Furthermore, He actually chastised His apostles on one occasion for their exclusion. In Mark 9:38-41, we read: "And John [said], Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." He was not all hung up on differences in the petty differences that divide Christians today.
