Works vs Doctrine

[iam1me]

Oooh. Youre debating with the wrong person. Maybe an idea of what you think I believe based on other people you speak with, I guess.

But it's an accusation. That's not a debate

It's not an accusation - it's a fact:

It's much more simple than quoting verses. Relationships are a two way thing. God does something for you and you do something for God. It's a tag team. Doesn't depreciate free gifts just puts more importance on thr act gratitude. More work from the believer.

James says a lot about it, but then, I was told James wasn't a good book to use. It depends on the person.

But protestants and other christians have some things in common. For some reason you guys like to argue over your own Sacred scripture pointing holes in each other's interpretation of scripture.

I know jesus did not care for the Jews who disagreed with his father but he did says what you do for others you do for him. Y'all really putting jesus to shame.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm well aware that it is a metaphor; it is you who needs to work on their reading comprehension.

This isn't a debate it's an argument.

Using scripture as a sword means you are hurting people with your words. Scripture mention it being a sword as in its message of truth dispelled all lies (those that oppose it).

So the verses you quoted in your other post does not relate to the metaphor I used with the same word.

Arguments can be expressed calmly. They are arguments because they are personal opinions. Debates aren't personal opinions. So best debate is probably in theology section or a DIR maybe where facts are challenged not the person presenting them.

But your whole conversation is offensive. I agree it's about works but I'm not one to say others are wrong just because they read that salvation is a gift and their works are a result of it. I agree with thr book of james, but it's not my place to say you or another is wrong.

That's all Christian. I don't see swords as positive. Not even a buffer knife when used as a weapon rather than butter on toast.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's not an accusation - it's a fact:

Facts aren't facts unless they are backed up with multiple objective evidences to confirm it. It's an opinion because it is your interpretation of what I wrote in this thread.

Facts don't need to be used as accusations. Present it appropriately with support and I can defend myself rather than pointing out the fault in your conversation method.

 

[iam1me]

Facts aren't facts unless they are backed up with multiple objective evidences to confirm it. It's an opinion because it is your interpretation of what I wrote in this thread.

Facts don't need to be used as accusations. Present it appropriately with support and I can defend myself rather than pointing out the fault in your conversation method.

Generally speaking, unless you are writing a mathematical proof - you aren't going to be dealing with hard facts. You are dealing with evidence that requires interpretation - as with Science.

At any rate - there is nothing wrong in my presentation of what you wrote - which was a direct quote of the entire post in question.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Generally speaking, unless you are writing a mathematical proof - you aren't going to be dealing with hard facts. You are dealing with evidence that requires interpretation - as with Science.

At any rate - there is nothing wrong in my presentation of what you wrote - which was a direct quote of the entire post in question.

You have to change your conversation method such as accusations and judging in order for conversations to be productive. I don't take sides on scripture since I would assume something Sacred would not be used to harm other people.

But, yeah, I don't take sides on scripture. I read it in full and I understand both points of both reading and experience.

I see both viewpoints. No one is right or wrong. Do you genuinely see the truth in the other side?

In debates, in former ones each party studies the argument of the other to prepare for counter arguments. If you are going by "christians say...and they are wrong..." is really s turn off right from the start because you are accusing the person not their beliefs.

Take out christians and just focus on thr beliefs you wish to correct. With that you may get a sensible debate with scripture. But like your counterparts, I honestly wonder if you two argue just to hear yourselves talk.

Being blunt at 12:20am in the morning.

 

[iam1me]

You have to change your conversation method such as accusations and judging in order for conversations to be productive. I don't take sides on scripture since I would assume something Sacred would not be used to harm other people.

But, yeah, I don't take sides on scripture. I read it in full and I understand both points of both reading and experience.

I see both viewpoints. No one is right or wrong. Do you genuinely see the truth in the other side?

Two competing interpretations can both be partially true - but if they are both only partially true, then you must simultaneously find them both partially false. Two competing interpretations cannot both be completely true. If you see some truth in another's position, then you should re-evaluate your interpretation with this new information - thereby creating a position that is stronger than either previous position.

To simply not takes sides on scripture, on the other hand, is to abandon the search for truth.

You are concerned with not harming others - that is a good thing. However, your worry is misapplied here. In the first place - you are asserting that anyone who seeks the truth is bringing harm to others. You are thus judging anyone who seeks truth. In the second place - one shouldn't be so concerned with people's feelings that they let them be lied to, or lie to themselves. It is those lies that will ultimately bring about greater harm than any discomfort about realizing you aren't completely correct in a matter will do.

In debates, in former ones each party studies the argument of the other to prepare for counter arguments. If you are going by "christians say...and they are wrong..." is really s turn off right from the start because you are accusing the person not their beliefs.

Take out christians and just focus on thr beliefs you wish to correct. With that you may get a sensible debate with scripture. But like your counterparts, I honestly wonder if you two argue just to hear yourselves talk.

Being blunt at 12:20am in the morning.

Of course each party studies the arguments of the other in debates - as it should be. Never asserted anything to the contrary. As for the rest of your commentary, I think you are being overly sensitive here. The ones who are going to disagree with me, who I am going to debate on the matter, are those who hold the position. There's nothing wrong with addressing them.

 

[Desert Snake]

Romans 4:3

 

[iam1me]

Romans 4:3

Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.​

James addresses this well:

James 2:21-24 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”e]">[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.​

Faith and works must always go hand in hand. There is no place in scripture where someone believes God - acts contrary to what he believes God instructed - and such action is considered to be righteous. Rather, when that occurs it is considered a sin.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Two competing interpretations can both be partially true - but if they are both only partially true, then you must simultaneously find them both partially false. Two competing interpretations cannot both be completely true. If you see some truth in another's position, then you should re-evaluate your interpretation with this new information - thereby creating a position that is stronger than either previous position.

To simply not takes sides on scripture, on the other hand, is to abandon the search for truth.

You are concerned with not harming others - that is a good thing. However, your worry is misapplied here. In the first place - you are asserting that anyone who seeks the truth is bringing harm to others. You are thus judging anyone who seeks truth. In the second place - one shouldn't be so concerned with people's feelings that they let them be lied to, or lie to themselves. It is those lies that will ultimately bring about greater harm than any discomfort about realizing you aren't completely correct in a matter will do.



Of course each party studies the arguments of the other in debates - as it should be. Never asserted anything to the contrary. As for the rest of your commentary, I think you are being overly sensitive here. The ones who are going to disagree with me, who I am going to debate on the matter, are those who hold the position. There's nothing wrong with addressing them.

Both sides are true. Whether they are based on fact depends on the believer. Unfortunately, believers don't debate facts that both parties agree on. That's why there is so much argument. There isn't a common foundation to which those arguments are based.

Belief with no works work like this. A person comes to Christ and admits they are a sinner. They commit themselves to the Christ of scripture and live by those teachings. The key is though they do work, the work is based on the grace and free gift god has given them. So, works isn't for salvation nor does one earn salvation by works. Which is scriptural when taking literally.

Then you have the other side with whom says works are just as important as faith if not correlated. The thing is, it's not saying the gift isn't free. It just means they see works as part of their salvational package. It's a different way of viewing the same exact teaching. What's weird is you guys quote similar scriptures as if the Bible proves itself wrong depending on who quotes it to correct the other. Makes me smile a bit, actually.

But, no. What I believe puts others first before myself. It is based on other people.

Actually, those are my words. Debates usually people study the other parties argument to counteract. The problem with that in these type arguments is you guys use the same book and same scripture and say the same thing with different words. It's based on "what the other said"... Example, christians say works are not needed to believe in god and scriptures says opposite.

Studying the other side means researching their argument not their claim of whats right or wrong (my words). If I went off Christian claims I'd never be on RF. I have to Drew my own conclusions because using scripture just makes if worse.

But, I do find it interesting the back and forth. Kinda like watching wrestling match. Many feel it's a legitimate sport. To me, I don't see sports in people getting hit.

Maybe, in analogy, their trying to "teach them something" (my words) who knows.

But if I shifted through the negative nature of your OP, I understand about works. I feel it's more simple without scriptures needed. If one has faith, one automatically does work because that faith makes that believer in service to Christ. Not all cultures have this, though. It really depends.

It is not that one person is wrong and the other is right. You can argue interpretations over translations all day. I'm sure there is another way to shape your position. It's s good topic when address as a discussion rather than a debate.

Edit... I got this stupid autospell check so I usually go back and edit. Give it a sec before replying.

 

[Desert Snake]

Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.​

James addresses this well:

James 2:21-24 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”e]">[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.​

Faith and works must always go hand in hand. There is no place in scripture where someone believes God - acts contrary to what he believes God instructed - and such action is considered to be righteous. Rather, when that occurs it is considered a sin.

Romans 4:2

Perhaps James isn't saying, what you think he is.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Many protestants tend to believe that salvation is not something to be earned, not something with any requirements on our end whatsoever. However, a comprehensive reading of the scriptures makes it clear that eternal life is a reward for our good works - and that without these works ones faith is meaningless.

Worse still, the thing that most protestants do hinge salvation upon is doctrine. You must accept their particular set of core doctrines for salvation. With doctrines like the Trinity - you aren't even required to understand the doctrine - just assent to it. However, the scriptures present no such list of doctrines but rather, again, bases the Judgement off of our deeds.

Consider the following passages:

James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that r]">[r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Romans 2:6-11 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 7:21-27
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”


Luke 6:43-46
“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Luke 13:6-9 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”
​

There are many more such verses, but the above is a good sampling of the consistent teaching of the scriptures on the matter. That is not to say that there are no scriptures which (when take out of context) would not give the opposite impression. Most such scriptures stem from not reading Paul thoroughly. Note that the Romans 2 passage above is from Paul - he maintained along with everyone else that works are required.

If you disagree with the notion that works are what result in salvation - but would assert that doctrine or something else is what secures one's salvation - please explain your view on the above scriptures and explain why you think differently.

What about Ephesians 2:8-9?

Or are you saying that we are saved by grace, but it is through our actions of faith that we show we've been saved?

 

[iam1me]

What about Ephesians 2:8-9?

Or are you saying that we are saved by grace, but it is through our actions of faith that we show we've been saved?

Ephesians 2:8-9 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

A good challenge verse If this were the only verse that spoke of salvation, I would probably be inclined to believe that salvation requires nothing from us, no works (although the next verse does say that we were created for the purpose of doing good works). And there is certainly no denying that what Christ did for us we did not earn. It was a gift. However, salvation is not at simple as that, I am afraid. If it were, then all would be saved and there would be no talk of the Judgement or the second death.

I would argue that what Jesus accomplished was to establish the New Covenant, of which he is High Priest, through which all of us - Jew and Gentile alike - maybe saved.

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."​

Since everyone is not saved - despite the fact that Jesus died for everyone - we must ask ourselves what differentiates those who are ultimately saved versus those who are judged and condemned. The answer to that is works. As verse 10 states, we were created for the purpose of doing good works. And the rest of the scriptures testify that we are judged on our works, our deeds, our fruit. Those who did good are deemed good and faithful and are rewarded with eternal life - while those who did not are judged and condemned.

Thus when we take everything into account, we find that salvation has multiple components to it. There is the gift of the New Covenant, given to us through Christ's sacrifice - something we never earned. And then there are own good deeds. In of themselves, these good deeds do not excuse our sins. However, when combined with the gift of grace, of forgiveness, our good deeds result in eternal life with God.

 

[iam1me]

Romans 4:2

Perhaps James isn't saying, what you think he is.

James is saying exactly what he says - but if you think you have a reasonable alternative interpretation of James I'd be willing to consider it. However, even Paul in Romans 2 tells us that eternal life is the reward for our own good works.

At any rate, James' exegesis on the matter is more thorough. Obviously if Abraham believed God but then acted in a manner contrary to what he believed God wanted, we wouldn't be calling Abraham righteous.

 

[iam1me]

Both sides are true. Whether they are based on fact depends on the believer. Unfortunately, believers don't debate facts that both parties agree on. That's why there is so much argument. There isn't a common foundation to which those arguments are based.

Both sides are not true - they are mutually exclusive positions. Either we are required to do good works to be saved, or not. Those statements can't both be true. Also - there are common foundations for these arguments: scripture, logic, history, etc.

Belief with no works work like this. A person comes to Christ and admits they are a sinner. They commit themselves to the Christ of scripture and live by those teachings. The key is though they do work, the work is based on the grace and free gift god has given them. So, works isn't for salvation nor does one earn salvation by works. Which is scriptural when taking literally.

Then you have the other side with whom says works are just as important as faith if not correlated. The thing is, it's not saying the gift isn't free. It just means they see works as part of their salvational package. It's a different way of viewing the same exact teaching. What's weird is you guys quote similar scriptures as if the Bible proves itself wrong depending on who quotes it to correct the other. Makes me smile a bit, actually.

Incorrect - it's not about works being as important as faith or being part of the "salvational package." Works are how one becomes saved. Without works - no eternal life. This is very different from asserting that works are an after thought that are expected but not really required of you - or that God automagically 'causes you to do good works when you are saved. Very different claims.

But if I shifted through the negative nature of your OP, I understand about works. I feel it's more simple without scriptures needed. If one has faith, one automatically does work because that faith makes that believer in service to Christ. Not all cultures have this, though. It really depends.

And that is the view that I am debating against - and the only way to know what scripture actually teaches is to study and debate via the scriptures.

It is not that one person is wrong and the other is right. You can argue interpretations over translations all day. I'm sure there is another way to shape your position. It's s good topic when address as a discussion rather than a debate.

Edit... I got this stupid autospell check so I usually go back and edit. Give it a sec before replying.

You can indeed argue different interpretations all day - that's precisely what you do in a scriptural debate. If you don't like scriptural debates, maybe stay out of the Scriptural Debates forum?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was following your post and your views and was about to reply when you made a sharp unnecessary nose dive.

If you don't like scriptural debates, maybe stay out of the Scriptural Debates forum?

Debates don't attack. If this is your thoughts why type so whole post unless you wanted to continue the conversation. Your words and actions just contradicted themselves.

How do you address we are saved by faith alone?

Ill be back to reply to your comments before the nose dive later. Address the scripture not me.

 

[iam1me]

I was following your post and your views and was about to reply when you made a sharp unnecessary nose dive.

No nose dive - an honest and necessary question. If you detest studying and debating scripture, why are you in a forum and thread that are focused on the study and debate of scripture? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Debates don't attack. If this is your thoughts why type so whole post unless you wanted to continue the conversation. Your words and actions just contradicted themselves.

Debates do attack the other position - and one of your positions is that scripture is unnecessary to these discussions. But this is a Scriptural Debates forum - scriptures are what are being debated here. Addressing the position you brought up is perfectly valid. You seem to have taken it as a personal attack - but it wasn't. Sorry if you were offended, but it is a legitimate question.

How do you address we are saved by faith alone?

Ill be back to reply to your comments before the nose dive later. Address the scripture not me.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

forum and thread that are focused on the study and debate of scripture? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I've answered your question in my post. It's all right of you skimmed it because I write long posts.
....

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

The scripture I posted is in direct opposite of this so, if you are wanting to debate (per forum purpose), the scripture: saved by faith alone Ephesians 2:8-9 is relevant to rebuting your statement about works being apart of salvation. My personal position isn't reflected in these comments but just what I came to know about the protestant position and how it rebuts the other persons views. Aka. I'm playing devil's advocate.

I've read the book of james. Instead of copy and pasting, explain that in opposition of the scripture I gave you. They seem very opposite from first glance. How do you interpret faith and grace alone and what James (and Paul and the OT basically) says?

I'm challenging your position. I don't know why you see protestants negative in your OP and have such a ill find with my posts, but both sides work/faith and faith only are true depending on ones interpretation of scripture.

For example, (again), some believe that works is a result of faith; and faith alone saves. While others believe works and faith saves since they are interrelated. Something you didn't post in your scriptures is....

Are you saying that the works a person does is from himself as a child does for a parent? Or?

In scripture, the believer doesn't do works from himself to do for God. It isn't his own works but gods. John 14:12 and Galatians 2:20 and etc

Protestants are saying work from ones self for God is wrong. That god have them a gift and it's not earned. They're not pushing works out the door but saying that salvation stands on its own.

Do you think there is a difference in saying work as s result of faith of faith and work together?

 

[iam1me]

I've answered your question in my post. It's all right of you skimmed it because I write long posts.

I read your post but didn't see it. Must have missed it.

The scripture I posted is in direct opposite of this so, if you are wanting to debate (per forum purpose), the scripture: saved by faith alone Ephesians 2:8-9 is relevant to rebuting your statement about works being apart of salvation. My personal position isn't reflected in these comments but just what I came to know about the protestant position and how it rebuts the other persons views. Aka. I'm playing devil's advocate.

I've read the book of james. Instead of copy and pasting, explain that in opposition of the scripture I gave you. They seem very opposite from first glance. How do you interpret faith and grace alone and what James (and Paul and the OT basically) says?

I'm challenging your position. I don't know why you see protestants negative in your OP and have such a ill find with my posts, but both sides work/faith and faith only are true depending on ones interpretation of scripture.

You didn't post a scripture reference. You made a vague reference to which I replied. As far as Ephesians 2:8-9, I addressed this a couple posts ago. Please see post #32 above.

For example, (again), some believe that works is a result of faith; and faith alone saves. While others believe works and faith saves since they are interrelated. Something you didn't post in your scriptures is....

Are you saying that the works a person does is from himself as a child does for a parent? Or?

In scripture, the believer doesn't do works from himself to do for God. It isn't his own works but gods. John 14:12 and Galatians 2:20 and etc

Protestants are saying work from ones self for God is wrong. That god have them a gift and it's not earned. They're not pushing works out the door but saying that salvation stands on its own.

Do you think there is a difference in saying work as s result of faith of faith and work together?

An individual's deeds are their own - we have freewill and must choose to do good or evil. Also, John 14:12 and Galatians 2:20 do not teach that the works we do our not our doing; they simply don't say that.

People like to assert that by becoming a Christian and receiving the Holy Spirit that good deeds just magically start happening independent of one's own will. This is simply false - something the scriptures NEVER teach. Rather, the scriptures constantly call for us to persevere in doing good works.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

So you see - that which is promised, salvation, is dependent upon us persevering in doing God's will. What you and others suggest is the inverse of this: you become saved and then God causes you to start doing good, automagically. The position you are taking is the inverse of what scripture teaches.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I read your post but didn't see it. Must have missed it.



You didn't post a scripture reference. You made a vague reference to which I replied. As far as Ephesians 2:8-9, I addressed this a couple posts ago. Please see post #32 above.



An individual's deeds are their own - we have freewill and must choose to do good or evil. Also, John 14:12 and Galatians 2:20 do not teach that the works we do our not our doing; they simply don't say that.

People like to assert that by becoming a Christian and receiving the Holy Spirit that good deeds just magically start happening independent of one's own will. This is simply false - something the scriptures NEVER teach. Rather, the scriptures constantly call for us to persevere in doing good works.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

So you see - that which is promised, salvation, is dependent upon us persevering in doing God's will. What you and others suggest is the inverse of this: you become saved and then God causes you to start doing good, automagically. The position you are taking is the inverse of what scripture teaches.

[/quote][/QUOTE]

Something I'm not getting. There are probably hundreds of verses that speak of god working through christians and saying the works don't come from the person (unrighteousness) but from Christ (righteous works).

The other part, having the holy spirit and just popping up do so things, if you see the meaning and context, it is not false. When people are born again, they commit themselves to following Christ. They do things because of Christ.

I know all the Works-verses. I'm more concerned on reading two different scriptures and seeing which one makes more sense. Not right or wrong not true of false. Just logical interpretation between you and the other party.

But, both sides sounds the same. No protestant I know doesn't do gods will. The issue is you guys think each other is wrong because you express your views differently. Unless the Bible contradicts itself, you'd have to address the other people's scriptures (like a debate) to clarify why the other is wrong and you are right. That, or since its Scripture, how they connect.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Many protestants tend to believe that salvation is not something to be earned, not something with any requirements on our end whatsoever. However, a comprehensive reading of the scriptures makes it clear that eternal life is a reward for our good works - and that without these works ones faith is meaningless.

Worse still, the thing that most protestants do hinge salvation upon is doctrine. You must accept their particular set of core doctrines for salvation. With doctrines like the Trinity - you aren't even required to understand the doctrine - just assent to it. However, the scriptures present no such list of doctrines but rather, again, bases the Judgement off of our deeds.

Consider the following passages:

James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that r]">[r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Romans 2:6-11 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 7:21-27
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”


Luke 6:43-46
“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Luke 13:6-9 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”
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There are many more such verses, but the above is a good sampling of the consistent teaching of the scriptures on the matter. That is not to say that there are no scriptures which (when take out of context) would not give the opposite impression. Most such scriptures stem from not reading Paul thoroughly. Note that the Romans 2 passage above is from Paul - he maintained along with everyone else that works are required.

If you disagree with the notion that works are what result in salvation - but would assert that doctrine or something else is what secures one's salvation - please explain your view on the above scriptures and explain why you think differently.

Millions were martyred through the Reformation and elsewhere for saying works aren't salvation, a heresy also called legalism.

Over 150 NT scriptures show some form of "Trust Jesus" for salvation.

I own an expensive gift, which Jesus paid on the Cross. THAT is salvation. Countless verses say man cannot pay for sin, pay to God anything He would be forced to repay, aid God in salvation, etc. This works doctrine denies verses like surely I AM A GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, THERE IS NO OTHER--the antithesis of "I earn salvation".

Biblical faith is the only faith where one receives a free gift rather than working for it. Why not go further and say "we just need works and don't need Jesus for salvation"?!