Why Believe Jesus Never Had Sex?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Really? You know what God knows and could have done better?

Absolutely! Because, I, a mere human, have more compassion than the bible's god ever displayed in any of it's ugly stories of genocide.

Take the Egyptian Story in Exodus. I would have simply forced the Pharaoh to let all the Isralites leave, quietly and with no fuss, over a period of several weeks so they could prepare to make the 8 day walk across the desert.

Then? I'd have left Egypt alone after that-- instead of, you know, murdering all the innocent Egyptian babies...

Yes: humans are both more moral than the bible's beast-god, they are also far more clever too...

But I have another example where I am far more moral than the bible's god: I even made a list...


A List Of Things Jesus Should of Said, but Didn't:
1) don't own people
2) respect everyone, men, women, children--treat each equally
3) try not to start a war
4) wash your hands
5) nothing wrong with masturbation, so long as you don't make a habit out of it. No--scratch that-- so long as you remember to eat.
6) always cook birds to well done
7) don't eat ****, don't drink ****-- yes, you would think this does not need to be said, but it does. sadly.
8) do not hit children. Don't do it. Just.. don't.
9) do not force sex onto anyone. Don't. No--not even then.
10) for most of you, do not worry about the glutens. If you don't know what that is? This is for *you*.
11) Be Excellent To Each Other.
12) try to make time to dance every day, if you can. Not all dancing requires standing up, or even legs. Sometimes, all you need to dance, is just in your own mind
13) enjoy sunrises
14) try not to work all the time; life is short enough as it is.
15) try to catch a full moon, if you are able
16) do not own people. yes--this is a repeat.
17) try not to kill anyone-- it's not respectful. (see #2)
18) cherish your family, your friends. You don't know when you will see them next.
19) I'm not coming back, in spite of rumors to the contrary. Sorry about that.
20) life is what you choose to make of it. Choose Wisely.
21) marry whom you please, so long as they are also an adult. Don't let nay-sayers tell you you can't or it's wrong.
22) there is no heaven, there is no hell-- live as if this life is all you get: because it is.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

A person can in their heart make a resolve to be committed to someone or something, but who knows whether the person is committed or not? Only that person. Am I correct?

How does making it official change anything?

I think that is different to persons that make a vow of commitment. Everyone knows, and there is an obligation to keep that vow.

Something Jesus said, what was it, about not making vows ...

Could you imagine if Pharaoh had learned that Sarah was Abraham's girlfriend, he would say, "Okay. Hands off." I don't think so.

Why aren't you mad at Abe for pimping out his wife for tax breaks?

Did you read the link I posted of the girl that sold her virginity for 3 mil. Not that the cost matters, but she is not the first. This has become a trend among young college girls. Isn't that prostitution?

Men bought women/girls all the time in the bible.

Apart from that, marriage had an origin

Yes, usually a contract between two tribes. The wishes of the couple were irrelevant.

He says it is.

Jesus said that marriage doesn't exist in heaven, so He can't be THAT into it, or He'd have made Adam and Eve get married before having sex.

I mean, there's no foreplay at all:

Adam: Cool! I got a chest-burster wife! I'm gonna have sex with you now.

In other words there is right and wrong.

And instead of God letting us know some master list, we keep letting "prophets" and such use their own biases to skew the results.

For one following Christ though, there is no fine line - no question.

Jesus' ancestor, needed for Jesus to exist, included a woman who prostituted her father in law.
Tamar (Genesis) - Wikipedia

Jesus' ancestor, needed for Jesus to exist, included someone else's wife.
Bathsheba - Wikipedia

Is fornication so immoral that Jesus should never have been born?

If we do not have the (sexual) self discipline to resist sex then it is better if we go on and get married. Are you still confused?

I am. My father cheated on my mother while married. Clearly, marriage isn't a magic spell that stops hormones.

I never read anything about the apostles having sexual relationships of any kind.

Peter never had sex with his wife?

Therefore, St. Peter’s wife must have died before Jesus called him to be an apostle.

Or the bible has a habit of mentioning and then quickly forgetting inconvenient characters.

Like Joseph.

Harder to promote the idea that Jesus is the literal Son of God when Daddy is sitting right there in the kitchen, after all.

Jehovah has stayed out of human affairs, due to the issues raised in the Garden of Eden.

Being a negligent Father is how we ended up with this mess in the first place.

For these issues to be settled, it required that Jehovah let men rule themselves, without His interference. (He has interfered, at times fervently, when it comes to protecting His people.)

Yeah, I've read the bible. With shepherds like that, who needs wolves?

I mean, I was just listening to a bible study podcast yesterday for Deut, and they get to the part where God promises to NEVER forsake Israel and then He goes on to list all the ways He is going to forsake Israel.

You believe this petty, sick genocidal entity deserves worship and praise. That's really twisted.

I really wish the Abrahamics would bring back the old pantheon before Judaism became monotheistic. If you want war and sick villains, there are War Gods for that. Why worship a benevolent God when that's not what you want out of Him?

Now are we prepared to promote masturbation as an acceptable substitute or are we still going to anachronistically call list "of the devil"? Is so then "praise be!"

My nails are too long for that kind of thing and I'm too cheap to buy the toys.

And I'm asexual, so nothing is going on in there except the rare medical exam.

I wonder if you would think that same way if you were ruling a domain, and 99.999% of your subjects were like this "twisted genocidal entity".

As an omnipotent being, why would I wait until it got that bad?

God: I'm not going to do anything or say anything or guide anyone like any decent creation would do. I'm just going to sit here and when it inevitably fails due to My negligence, I'm going to get mad at THEM.

According to the scriptures God did something. He didn't stand idly by twiddling his thumbs, while the earth became completely devoured in twisted depravity.

He DID stand by. Hebrews were supposedly enslaved for centuries at a time before God bothered to do anything. Some religions are even PROUD that God only sends a messenger every thousand years or so. Is that not the textbook definition of laziness? When you're not in that sweet spot where God gets up off His behind, you're left to your own, right?

Let's say you have a pressing need and go to a hospital. The receptionist says that it's unfortunate you're bleeding to death, but the surgeon can pencil you in a century from now. Does THAT make you want to go with this surgeon?

I mean, people are so quick to vilify those who turned "against" God, but seriously, with that work ethic, who could blame them?

During that time the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and these bore sons to them. They were the mighty ones of old times, the men of fame.

So punish the angelic rapists, not the victims. GOD, the God the bible is stupid.

I find that Atheist - people who claim not to believe in gods, and who like to "throw darts at the Bible", also seem to have convinced themselves that they are experts at interpreting the book they hate so much - a holy book.

Okay, well, I worship God even though I feel now that the Abrahamics have turned from God and worship texts instead because a text is something you can hold in your hand and you've been conditioned to believe that if it's written down, it's true. You (general) don't have to worry about the messiness of having an actual relationship with a living entity. It's like the people who fall in love with romance book characters.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

That amazes me, since the said book says that the Devil blinds the minds of those not believing, and God hides the understanding from the, and lets them believe he lie, imply because the refuse to humble themselves, and accept the truth so clearly evident before them.

Again, God is bragging about NOT DOING HIS JOB and you love this about Him?

The text says clearly that there was an ongoing population increase of purely twisted minded individuals

Which is never established as anything more than a claim, like how in WW 2, depending on who was telling the story, the Allies or the Axis ate babies or something. Racist hyperbole was NEVER in the bible except, I dunno, EVERYWHERE.

Well the simple fact is, we don't know how far men had gone in their twisted mentality. Look at today. People are having sex with trees. I don't think I need to mention the animals do I, ecco?

So, again, God is killing the VICTIMS of nonconsensual sex rather than just the actual perps? And you're FINE with that?

is "your morality" in harmony with God's? If you don't base "your morality" on the Bible alone

Such rank idolatry. Do you not see yourself equating a DEITY with a BOOK?

If we are not being guided by God's word, what are we being guided by, and how do we determine that God approves of it?

How did you determine the biblical authors had God's word?

Of course you are aware that to make a statement such as that without any proof to back it up is called a baseless claim.

I've seen enough YEC'ers to know they either slept through education or know what they are saying are lies.

it still would not satisfy the ones who do not want to live by Bible standards?

I'm a gentile woman. You couldn't PAY me to enjoy biblical "standards" that get me stoned for basically existing.

I grew up on a cartoon called Superbook, where some kids time travel to biblical times. As an adult, I find it unbelievable. If those kids and the robot showed up, they'd be executed by an angry mob for being demons or something. The people in that book are NOT decent people, ESPECIALLY if they say they are.

First, we do not have all the details so we cannot judge the situation there - and especially by our standards.

You specifically justified God's genocide by saying nearly the entire planet was filled with evil people.

edit:

Just curious though... How do you poof someone out of existence. Sounds like magic.
Does God do that? That's funny though.

It's a constant problem of the bible's writing ability, that powers are claimed and then never followed through.

What Happened to the Mouse? - TV Tropes

What I was really asking you, is what you would do in a situation where you were king over a domain, and the vast majority of your subjects were murdering others.

A good King wouldn't just sit on his throne until it got that bad. It turns out that promoting education and healthcare and stuff will bring those rates down.

Scriptures even says he hides his eyes from those practicing what is bad.

So, He's negligent.

Apparently, God is not an automatic know-it-all.

He's SO clueless Hebrews have to cut off their foreskins and paint their doorways with blood so God can tell them from Egyptians. And God MADE them! AND saw them naked!

As I recall, it is thought there were two distinct sources for the Gospel stories, often named with a single letter (the only one I remember, the "J" source? I think that's right... been too long)

Q. The bible would've been much better if Q had written it.

https://inktank.fi/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Q-Star-Trek.jpg

And the #1 Breaking God's Law? Finally permitted Gays to Marry in the USA, making for millions of Happy People who were formally not-that-happy.

Actually, Jesus said that laws we make on earth would be recognized in heaven. That must get hella complicated with all the different nations on the planet, but God has to accept gay marriage now.

First, regarding Exodus....surely you can figure this out, why Jehovah God stepped in? His people were forced into slavery!!
Grief, man! God can’t protect His people? (I’m surprised you didn’t also mention Babylon, or Assyria; same reason: He was protecting His obedient people! cf. 2 Thessalonians 1:6.)

Not for the centuries they were enslaved. And after rescuing them, He killed off nearly everyone from that generation He actually DID rescue. Some help.

The bottom line was, if His people as a whole were being obedient, He allowed no one to harm them.

LOL.

Unlike the other Canaanites, the Gibeonites realized that despite their military strength and the greatness of their city, resistance would fail because Jehovah was fighting for Israel.

I take it the Gibeonites didn't have chariots of iron.

Although Joshua and the other chieftains had been tricked into making a covenant with the Gibeonites, this was evidently in harmony with Jehovah’s will.

And here we see blatant political spin to distract from real failures.

 

[sojourner]

Are Sodom and Gomorrah not biblical proofs against the act itself?

No. The sin of Sodom was inhospitality — not gang-rape.

 

[sojourner]

No, but I do not have an ironclad argument against homosexual marriage or the orientation like I do for homosexual sex. My only argument against homosexual marriage is a biblical one where as my argument against homosexual sex is a secular one. Does all that at least make sense to you?

Where do you find in the Bible that it says “homosexual couples may not marry?”

 

[sojourner]

you must be born-again for the words are spiritual words and must be understood by a spiritual being that is made in His image. Otherwise you are interpreting things through a western humanistic belief system

Uh, no. The exegetical process is designed to remove bias from the readings so that various critical processes can be utilized. Your concept includes a built in bias. In your system, Jews would be unable to understand their own texts, and many people writing translations and commentaries would be wrong. Except we know they’re not.

No, I’m afraid your process would lead to eisegesis — which is not good.

 

[sojourner]

In contrast to pretty much all christians, everywhere

That’s an unfair statement. It would be fair to say “many” Xtians.

The difference? We can use your bible to show that the bible's god IS a genocidal beast, who deliberately harden's hearts so he may "glorify" in their subsequent belittlement and deaths

You could, but you’d be wrong, because that interpretation doesn’t take into account a necessary literary criticism of the texts in question.

 

[sojourner]

If you want to call that an atheist mantra - OK. But I'm only going by what is written in your bible. I'm not interpreting anything. I'm taking it at its word

No you’re not “going by what is written.” You are interpreting — albeit sloppily.

You’re engaging in eisegesis — the process of reading things into the texts that are not there. When you simply “read the words on the page,” you’re neglecting a necessary process of engagement with form, literary, historical, sociological, and a few other critical methods that are necessary to come to an understanding of what these ancient writers are actually saying. “What is written” isn’t just the words on the page. By doing that, you’re coming up with an interpretation by default. The authors are not saying that “God is a genocidal maniac.”

 

[sojourner]

Where is it said that this God created anything defective, and knew how they would turn out? Can you point out where this is found

In fact, in the creation myth, God does not know everything.

 

[sojourner]

This Conundrum is so common, there is a lovely phrase describing it: Catch-22.

It’s designed that way as a method of keeping out those deemed undesirable. Keeps the power base secure.

 

[Kenny]

Uh, no. The exegetical process is designed to remove bias from the readings so that various critical processes can be utilized. Your concept includes a built in bias. In your system, Jews would be unable to understand their own texts, and many people writing translations and commentaries would be wrong. Except we know they’re not.

No, I’m afraid your process would lead to eisegesis — which is not good.

Sojourner... if you look at it in context, you would come to a different conclusion about what I said and to whom I said it,

However, there is still a truth to what I said 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But, yes, you don't have to be born again

 

[sojourner]

The worst atrocity of them all? The time the bible's god was SO SIMPLE-MINDED that he had to literally murder the entire planet, in order to do a "do over"-- literally killing all the babies over the whole planet.

That's the behavior of a 2 year old. Not an actual god...

The broad spectrum application of a judgment of God, based on one particular ancient, mythic account is kind of 2 year old behavior, as well. It’s not even a metaphorical story about God — it’s a story about humanity. You’re really doing your intellect a disservice here, and losing some street cred in the process. Respectfully, if you’re going to critique, then critique. Don’t just sit up in the balcony and heckle like Statler and Waldorf.

 

[sojourner]

Yes the bible contains commands that deal with homosexual acts and orientations

Almost, but not quite. The Bible contains 0 commands that deal with sexual orientation. 0.

 

[Kenny]

Almost, but not quite. The Bible contains 0 commands that deal with sexual orientation. 0.

But it does speak of sexual acts.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner... if you look at it in context, you would come to a different conclusion about what I said and to whom I said it,

However, there is still a truth to what I said 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But, yes, you don't have to be born again

1) I did look back. I suppose I must have missed something.
2) exegesis is not “spiritually discerned.”

 

[sojourner]

But it does speak of sexual acts.

Right. The real question is: why does it say what it says about the acts?

 

[Kenny]

1) I did look back. I suppose I must have missed something.
2) exegesis is not “spiritually discerned.”

I disagree... if exegesis is a critical explanation and interpretation and you have no spiritual capacity to understand, how can you give a critical explanation?

 

[sojourner]

I disagree... if exegesis is a critical explanation and interpretation and you have no spiritual capacity to understand, how can you give a critical explanation?

Because the critiques are not spiritual. A theological critique may be used, but, since theology is an actual discipline, the logic of it may be understood and appreciated by a nonbeliever, even if s/he disagrees with it.

 

[sojourner]

Absolutely! Because, I, a mere human, have more compassion than the bible's god ever displayed in any of it's ugly stories of genocide.

Take the Egyptian Story in Exodus. I would have simply forced the Pharaoh to let all the Isralites leave, quietly and with no fuss, over a period of several weeks so they could prepare to make the 8 day walk across the desert.

Then? I'd have left Egypt alone after that-- instead of, you know, murdering all the innocent Egyptian babies...

Yes: humans are both more moral than the bible's beast-god, they are also far more clever too...

But I have another example where I am far more moral than the bible's god: I even made a list...


A List Of Things Jesus Should of Said, but Didn't:
1) don't own people
2) respect everyone, men, women, children--treat each equally
3) try not to start a war
4) wash your hands
5) nothing wrong with masturbation, so long as you don't make a habit out of it. No--scratch that-- so long as you remember to eat.
6) always cook birds to well done
7) don't eat ****, don't drink ****-- yes, you would think this does not need to be said, but it does. sadly.
8) do not hit children. Don't do it. Just.. don't.
9) do not force sex onto anyone. Don't. No--not even then.
10) for most of you, do not worry about the glutens. If you don't know what that is? This is for *you*.
11) Be Excellent To Each Other.
12) try to make time to dance every day, if you can. Not all dancing requires standing up, or even legs. Sometimes, all you need to dance, is just in your own mind
13) enjoy sunrises
14) try not to work all the time; life is short enough as it is.
15) try to catch a full moon, if you are able
16) do not own people. yes--this is a repeat.
17) try not to kill anyone-- it's not respectful. (see #2)
18) cherish your family, your friends. You don't know when you will see them next.
19) I'm not coming back, in spite of rumors to the contrary. Sorry about that.
20) life is what you choose to make of it. Choose Wisely.
21) marry whom you please, so long as they are also an adult. Don't let nay-sayers tell you you can't or it's wrong.
22) there is no heaven, there is no hell-- live as if this life is all you get: because it is.

Are you just yanking chains? Because I really don’t think you’re dull enough to at least not appreciate the literary beauty of the mythic tales and metaphors made use of in the texts, as well as the multicultural attestation of them.

 

[Kenny]

Because the critiques are not spiritual. A theological critique may be used, but, since theology is an actual discipline, the logic of it may be understood and appreciated by a nonbeliever, even if s/he disagrees with it.

Yes.,.,. and no.

Yes, an unspiritual person can critique but it would be an error in it explanation. So, an unspiritual person critiques the message and says "There is no God". Yes... it is a critique but also wrong.

But if an unbeliever reads a spiritually sound critique, because they are seeking spiritually, they can and will find value in it.

I think we might be end up splitting hairs here.

corrections made