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RIght vs Left

exchemist

Veteran Member
You missed the point. I wasn't saying right is better than left, democracy is better than theocracy, or communism is better than capitalism. Since we are in the devil's kingdom none of that makes any difference. If it is true that the devil is in charge, do you think it would matter to him if we got rid of all the guns in the world or if every man, woman, and child owned 20 AR15s? He'd work his evil plans with or without guns.

My point is that a decent life is not dependent on any system man can possibly imagine. The only answer, as I said, was to believe the scriptures and live accordingly. A particular form of government is irrelevant to God.
Tell that to someone eating tree bark in N Korea.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
But isn't a scriptural life a system in itself?
People have been living their versions of scriptural lives for two thousand years. Their lives have been far from utopian. Either the scriptures are less than clear about a proper lifestyle and values, or people are very resistant to the Hippie lifestyle recommended by Jesus.
DIRs are for people who like preaching to the choir; who aren't interested in any fresh opinions or insights.
Actually people have been living the Roman Catholic system for the last 2,000 years. They killed untold number of dissenters through the years. They are the ones who influence what virtually everyone knows about God. How reliable could such an institution be? There is little resemblance between their doctrine and the scriptures. Don't blame God for their heresy. And the Protestants aren't much better thanks to the National Council of Churches. That's where you are getting your ideas of hippie lifestyles, not the Bible.

BTW, there is no promise of utopia in this world. Quite the opposite actually. Re-read my post. The devil is called the god of this world and he is only interested in stealing, killing, and destroying, hardly a utopia.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Tell that to someone eating tree bark in N Korea.
If any North Korean would listen, I would absolutely tell them God's word. They're eating bark because of the devil, not God. Once anybody learns and believes the scriptures the door is open for their lives to improve. That's why it's important to preach the word and give people an alternative to the lies of this world.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
DIRs are for people who like preaching to the choir; who aren't interested in any fresh opinions or insights.
I went there. Not much going on though. Most posts are several years old. I found a few from the first quarter of 2018, but that is ancient in inter net time.

BTW, there is nobody, myself included, who knows all there is to know about the scriptures. There is actually tons of new insights to be had for those interested in learning. As far as opinions go, they are closer to a certain anterior human anatomical structure than the scriptures. A sign of a good Christian is a rejection of opinion when it comes to learning about God. The scriptures, not religion, opinion, church doctrine, or anything else, needs to be the sole source of reference for truth.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
If any North Korean would listen, I would absolutely tell them God's word. They're eating bark because of the devil, not God. Once anybody learns and believes the scriptures the door is open for their lives to improve. That's why it's important to preach the word and give people an alternative to the lies of this world.
For the lives of N Koreans to improve, the regime that oppresses them has to oppress them less and pay more attention to the condition of the citizens. Preaching the word of God to a starving person will earn you richly deserved ridicule and contempt.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So, my question is, where exactly is my post wrong, and by what authority does my "opponent" speak? Pick any verse I quoted and explain where I am wrong in my comments about that verse
It’s not about any one verse. It’s your whole premise. My Bible says that the earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness.” How does that jibe with your premise that Satan has some kind of chokehold on it?

Over and over the Bible teaches us about God’s providence, care, and abundance. That’s what the word “glory” means, is “fatness” or abundance. Jesus taught us to not let our hearts be troubled, to let the concerns of the day be enough — that God always provides for us. This stands in very stark contrast to the “gospel” of fear and spiritual scarcity you paint here. I really think you need to take a better look at your interpretation, because that’s simply not the jist of the biblical message I’ve studied professionally over the past 25 years.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
For the lives of N Koreans to improve, the regime that oppresses them has to oppress them less and pay more attention to the condition of the citizens. Preaching the word of God to a starving person will earn you richly deserved ridicule and contempt.
Unless the person you reach is el presidente...or whatever it's called in NK.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I was just trying to save you time if you are anti-scripture. What's so bad about that? You guys always think the worse. Never consider alternatives. That's pretty much what my post was all about, so you defended it for me.
Just a quick tip - starting your post out with something like "WARNING: Only serious Bible-believers should read what I am about to write." you're basically just tempting people with viewpoints alternative to your own who are thinking along the lines of "Oh boy, here we go... what's this about?"
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually people have been living the Roman Catholic system for the last 2,000 years. They killed untold number of dissenters through the years. They are the ones who influence what virtually everyone knows about God. How reliable could such an institution be? There is little resemblance between their doctrine and the scriptures. Don't blame God for their heresy. And the Protestants aren't much better thanks to the National Council of Churches. That's where you are getting your ideas of hippie lifestyles, not the Bible.
Good points. For most of its history orgnized Christianity has been largely a self-serving political hegemony.

My impression of Jesus as a Hippie comes mostly from His sermons on the mount and on the plain, and from his communal lifestyle.
We Hippies are a movement that attempts to actually live the peace, love and community values Jesus preached.
If any North Korean would listen, I would absolutely tell them God's word. They're eating bark because of the devil, not God. Once anybody learns and believes the scriptures the door is open for their lives to improve. That's why it's important to preach the word and give people an alternative to the lies of this world.
They're eating bark because of politics and our natural hierarchical nature. Politics is the prime determinant of happiness and prosperity.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
It’s not about any one verse. It’s your whole premise. My Bible says that the earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness.” How does that jibe with your premise that Satan has some kind of chokehold on it?

Over and over the Bible teaches us about God’s providence, care, and abundance. That’s what the word “glory” means, is “fatness” or abundance. Jesus taught us to not let our hearts be troubled, to let the concerns of the day be enough — that God always provides for us. This stands in very stark contrast to the “gospel” of fear and spiritual scarcity you paint here. I really think you need to take a better look at your interpretation, because that’s simply not the jist of the biblical message I’ve studied professionally over the past 25 years.
Very good point. However, I didn't write the verses that say the devil is god of this world, that he is the prince of the power of the air, that the whole world lies in wickedness, or that the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Somehow those verses need to be squared with the one you mentioned. I'm sure it's possible.

Apparent contradictions are either due to mistranslation or our understanding. In this case it could very well be that "the earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness" is not found in most ancient texts.

"The repetition of the words “The earth is the Lord’s,” &c., in this verse is an interpolation not found in the best MSS., and tends to interrupt the thought which is carried on in 1Corinthians 10:29." Ellicot's Commentary

"For the earth is the Lord's ... - See 1 Corinthians 10:26. These words are missing in many mss. (see Mill's Greek Testament), and in the Vulgate, Syriac, Coptic, and Arabic versions; and are omitted by Griesbach. Grotius says that they should be omitted." Barne's Notes on the Bible.
1 Corinthians is a quote from Ps 24:1, the OT. Much of the OT is prophetical so when God declares His sovereignty He is usually speaking of the new heavens and earth where all the promises He made to Israel will come to pass. Until then we are stuck behind enemy lines. This whole thing would probably warrant further study, but there can be no contradictions, so there has to be an answer. Of course one could say it is indeed a contradiction in the scriptures. If I though that I'd give up. Until then, I figure I'm just not seeing something that is in God's perfect Word.

God is infinitely bigger than the devil. When we believe Him and claim the promises He made to us, the devil must yield. That is all Jesus was saying. The devil can make people sick, but God can heal that person if they believe. The dark picture I paint is true for those without God in this world. However, born again believers can live a life that is more than abundant (John 10:10) and we have overcome the evil one (1 John 2:14), we are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37). On the other hand, because we are living behind enemy lines, there is no guarantee we won't be attacked and go through miserable times. But we know, that we will someday be living for eternity in paradise. In the end the devil is cast down and destroyed. Until then, we just need to sit tight and live God's word to the best of our ability.That's our hope.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
WARNING: The following post contains Bible quotes and scriptural concepts. If you are offended by such content, I advise you read no further. In any case, I will not answer any comments that are obviously from someone who does not hold the Bible in the highest regard.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s not hard to find liberal websites that claim conservatives are stupid. It’s equally easy to find conservatives who say the same about liberals. Each side is convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the other side doesn’t have a clue as to how society ought to be run. Neither side is prone to consider anything the other side says is anything other than dumber than dumb. It’s caused a deep divide in American society. So which side is really correct? I say neither side is doing anything to help.

There is an old saying that goes, “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.” I think that is what both sides are actually trying to do. Neither side considers that perhaps the answer lays outside the realm of politics altogether. The fundamental problem is not right vs. left. There is nothing either side can do to make the silk purse because a sow’s ear is a sow’s ear and it can never become a silk purse.

The world is a sow’s ear, and as such it’ll never be a nice silk purse. It’s a question of the nature of the world, which, thanks to Adam and Eve simply doesn’t have the raw materials to be anything other than a sow’s ear. It certainly can’t become a silk purse regardless of who is in charge, right, left, middle, up, down, or anything between.

1 John 5:19, (ERV)

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.​

The whole world, not just parts of it, but the whole world is set solidly on a foundation of the devil. Unless the wicked one (the devil) wants to make the world a nice place to live, it’ll never be what God intended when He created it in the beginning. Of course the devil has no intention of making it a nice place. His whole purpose is to kill, steal, and destroy (John 10:10), so there is no hope it’ll be anything other than a wasteland.

While many think God is in charge in today’s world, the scriptures say it is actualy the devil’s kingdom.

2Cor 4:4,

in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.​

Eph 2:2,

wherein aforetime ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;​

He offered this power to Jesus.

Luke 4:5-6,

5 And he led him up, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, To thee will I give all this authority, and the glory of them: for (power) it hath been delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.​

The devil got that power when Adam sinned and transferred his God given dominion (Gen 1:26) to the devil. That is how he became God of this world.

All the verses in the Old Testament that say God is in charge will come to pass when He established the new heavens and earth. They are prophetic in nature and not meant to describe the current state of affairs. Until the return the world belongs to the devil.

Rom 8:22,

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

Does that sound like God is in charge? Is that how a loving and light filled God runs things? It’s blasphemy to even suggest such a thing! God does not run the world that way. When Christ re-appears He’ll chuck the whole damn mess and create a new one wherein dwells righteousness.

2Pet 3:13,

But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

That is in the future. It’ll come as sure as the sun rises. Actually, more sure! Someday the sun won’t rise, but God’s word will still be God’s word.

The only reason the devil can’t carry out his diabolical will to the fullness is because of people who believe and walk according to the scriptures. Bible believing Christians are the lights of this world (Phil 2:5). No amount of darkness can dispell light.

2Thess 2:7,
For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.​

Liberal or conservative, neither can do anything to make the world a better place, unless you like a place that is in travail and always groaning. It’s certainly not my cup of tea! The only thing that will really help is preaching the Bible. Speak it to everyone you meet. When you see someone who is sick, tell them God has healed them (1 Peter 2:24 [notice past tense, “hath healed”]). When someone can’t make a rent or car payment, tell them God supplies all their needs (Phil 4:19). Any problem the devil causes can be solved with God’s word. People just need to know that. If Christians don’t tell them, who will? Not the god of this world, the devil. That’s for sure! Just love people with God’s word.

Forget Trump or Clinton. They are powerless to change the nature of the devil’s kingdom unless they speak the truth of God’s word, something which neither appears interested in doing. The solution is God, not politics.


:facepalm:
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Exactly. So the political system matters. It is not just about the word of God.
What comes first, a political system or God? There is not a political system in existence that can thwart God's plan for anyone who believes. By far most people believe the lies of the devil and that gives him his power. When people believe God society would be much better. That's what the scriptures say at any rate. The fact is there has never been anything other than a small minority who believe God. Even Jesus had only a small handful of believers in the end. Paul said everyone had turned against him, and he was the one who gave us the NT. There is a dearth of teaching on his message in the churches today, so few people have a clue as to what he actually said. The churches just tell us to stop sinning and be more holy. Well, that's never worked very well. They need to learn and teach the things Paul wrote. His letters are where we learn what God has done for us, not so much what we can do for ourselves, which isn't very much. Something about grace vs. law.....
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Apparent contradictions are either due to mistranslation or our understanding
No, there are very real and apparent contradictions. It’s unrealistic to think otherwise, or to try to excuse them on some false premise.

1 Corinthians is a quote from Ps 24:1, the OT. Much of the OT is prophetical so when God declares His sovereignty He is usually speaking of the new heavens and earth where all the promises He made to Israel will come to pass. Until then we are stuck behind enemy lines. This whole thing would probably warrant further study, but there can be no contradictions, so there has to be an answer. Of course one could say it is indeed a contradiction in the scriptures. If I though that I'd give up. Until then, I figure I'm just not seeing something that is in God's perfect Word
I’m not concerned with Corinthians, but with Psalm 24, which is quoted. This is not prophecy. It’s a psalm. The first verse is a cosmology, not a prophecy. It sets up the rest of the psalm. Look at verse 2: for he on the seas did found it — not shall found it.

This psalm is in concord with the other teachings I mentioned. I think you’re going to have to look deeper into the texts before making such an assumption as the one you have made.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What comes first, a political system or God? There is not a political system in existence that can thwart God's plan for anyone who believes. By far most people believe the lies of the devil and that gives him his power. When people believe God society would be much better. That's what the scriptures say at any rate. The fact is there has never been anything other than a small minority who believe God. Even Jesus had only a small handful of believers in the end. Paul said everyone had turned against him, and he was the one who gave us the NT. There is a dearth of teaching on his message in the churches today, so few people have a clue as to what he actually said. The churches just tell us to stop sinning and be more holy. Well, that's never worked very well. They need to learn and teach the things Paul wrote. His letters are where we learn what God has done for us, not so much what we can do for ourselves, which isn't very much. Something about grace vs. law.....
Even your next to last sentence here disputes your OP, and agrees with what I said. Your premise is, thus far, so weak that even you depart from it trying to defend it. I think you need to rethink the OP.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Good points. For most of its history orgnized Christianity has been largely a self-serving political hegemony.

My impression of Jesus as a Hippie comes mostly from His sermons on the mount and on the plain, and from his communal lifestyle.
We Hippies are a movement that attempts to actually live the peace, love and community values Jesus preached.
They're eating bark because of politics and our natural hierarchical nature. Politics is the prime determinant of happiness and prosperity.
Have you ever read where Jesus said,

John 6:63,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
So if Hippies want a better place they need to get into spirit since flesh has nothing of value. So one would need to know and understand all the words Jesus spoke since those are spirit.

BTW, I was a full out practicing Hippie in the 60s. That's when I got born again. If you care to listen to someone who has seen it from both sides, I'd forget Hippydom and find someone to teach you the scriptures. Unfortunately, it's hard to find someone who has freed themselves from the nonsensical doctrine most churches teach. Personally, I'm lost when they start saying things about 3 people in one. That makes no sense right out of the gate, so how could it get any better? The scriptures are the pinnacle of logic. If something isn't logical, it's not scriptural. God never ever asked someone to, "just take it by faith." God is knowable and He reveals Himself clearly in the scriptures.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
No, there are very real and apparent contradictions. It’s unrealistic to think otherwise, or to try to excuse them on some false premise.


I’m not concerned with Corinthians, but with Psalm 24, which is quoted. This is not prophecy. It’s a psalm. The first verse is a cosmology, not a prophecy. It sets up the rest of the psalm. Look at verse 2: for he on the seas did found it — not shall found it.

This psalm is in concord with the other teachings I mentioned. I think you’re going to have to look deeper into the texts before making such an assumption as the one you have made.
MUCH of the OT is prophetical. Not all. By seeing that the earth belongs to the Lord is future, I solved the problem of all the verses that declare the devil is currently in charge. How would you propose to solve the apparent contradiction? Maybe there is a better way. I don't know everything.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
What comes first, a political system or God? There is not a political system in existence that can thwart God's plan for anyone who believes. By far most people believe the lies of the devil and that gives him his power. When people believe God society would be much better. That's what the scriptures say at any rate. The fact is there has never been anything other than a small minority who believe God. Even Jesus had only a small handful of believers in the end. Paul said everyone had turned against him, and he was the one who gave us the NT. There is a dearth of teaching on his message in the churches today, so few people have a clue as to what he actually said. The churches just tell us to stop sinning and be more holy. Well, that's never worked very well. They need to learn and teach the things Paul wrote. His letters are where we learn what God has done for us, not so much what we can do for ourselves, which isn't very much. Something about grace vs. law.....
A political system, obviously. All human societies have some form of political system, whatever their religious beliefs.

If you believe in changing lives for the better, you have to engage with the structures that exist.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
No, there are very real and apparent contradictions. It’s unrealistic to think otherwise, or to try to excuse them on some false premise.
The Bible claims to be perfect, so I use it as my authority when making assertions. At least I have a source on which to base my assertions. What is the source of reference you use to say there are very real contradictions?

If, as I said, contradictions can be due to understanding, then it is highly possible you don't understand something and that causes the contradiction. After all, we don't know what we don't know. In any case, we can't pick and choose the verses we want to keep and ignore those we don't like.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
A political system, obviously. All human societies have some form of political system, whatever their religious beliefs.

If you believe in changing lives for the better, you have to engage with the structures that exist.
Yes. I must preach to communists, republicans, democrats, righties, lefties, anti-fas, white supremacists, man, woman, gun owners, gun haters.... I'll engage with anybody who'll listen. If they listen, the world has a bit more light and that is what defeats darkness.
 
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