Flashback: "Russia, If You're Listening..."

[metis]

Allegedly hacked, and the invitation is still open.

No, it is no longer "allegedly"-- unless you watch the Fox Propaganda Channel and/or listen to Lush Limbaugh.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Allegedly hacked, and the invitation is still open.

Everyone, including all intelligence agencies, seem to know it happened. Except for Trump. And you, I guess.

 

[Stanyon]

No, it is no longer "allegedly"-- unless you watch the Fox Propaganda Channel and/or listen to Lush Limbaugh.

Of course, Fox propaganda and drunk Limbaugh.....

Everyone, including all intelligence agencies, seem to know it happened. Except for Trump. And you, I guess.

There is plenty of room for reasonable doubt skeptic

You forgot these guys:
Intel Vets Challenge ‘Russia Hack’ Evidence – Consortiumnews

Why Some U.S. Ex-Spies Don't Buy the Russia Story - Bloomberg

Russian Cyberespionage: Does Mueller Have Proof beyond a Reasonable Doubt? | National Review

 

[metis]

Of course, Fox propaganda and drunk Limbaugh.....



And these guys:
Intel Vets Challenge ‘Russia Hack’ Evidence – Consortiumnews

Why Some U.S. Ex-Spies Don't Buy the Russia Story - Bloomberg

Russian Cyberespionage: Does Mueller Have Proof beyond a Reasonable Doubt? | National Review

You might actually check the dates on your links.

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't endorse blindly racing off to DO SOMETHING for the sake of being seen to do something. That's how we keep getting dragged into the Middle East quagmires. However, I certainly agree that racing off to give away whatever advantages we may have is not helpful either, nor is letting Russia run about roughshod on the world stage without even a semblance of holding them to account.

We're not blind, at this point. The evidence; the indictments are there.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

We're not blind, at this point. The evidence; the indictments are there.

Not quite what I meant, but anyway...

 

[Sleeppy]

Because Russia was/is the scapegoat when votes and elections in Europe didn't go the way the powers that be wanted them to. Russian trolls even got blamed for Germanies Merkel for not getting more votes even though she won but in the end it was concluded that it was far- right wingers from the U.S. that meddled in their elections. By meddled I mean some people made some unfavourable comments about Merkel on Youtube, made some memes and posted on forums ( I am one of these meddlers apparently though I am not far-right nor Russian or even a troll) basically, anything less than positive about Merkel just like Hillary could get you branded as either a deplorable or a Russian- you can't makes this stuff up, but they did.

Germany election: U.S. right-wing voices meddling more than Russia

Did you read that article?

 

[Sleeppy]

Not quite what I meant, but anyway...

I realized that after reading your other posts. Neither was I equating 'anything' with 'something'. Obviously, we want calculation.

 

[Stevicus]

We know exactly what they're plotting. It's called Eurasianism, and the short version is they want to destabilise "The West" and establish themselves as the hegemonic overlords of satelites covering most of Europe and Asia.

We know this for sure?

If this sounds familiar, it's because they have a history of this sort of thing. The only difference is that they are trying "soft power" tactics this time, where in the past it was very much military power. The end goal is the same.

As far as their history goes, most of the time, they've been defending against those who attack them.

Seriously, this isn't conspiracy theory stuff, Eurasionism is the acknowledged guiding principle of the modern Russian state. You can look all this stuff up in detail. Plenty of good podcasts about it oht there, too, if that's how you like to get info.

It's merely a perception on how they see themselves, neither European nor Asian - and I would hardly call that a universal school of thought. It's just like our ideas of Manifest Destiny, American Exceptionalism, the American Dream - that kind of stuff. You can read into it whatever you want.

As for "what can we do about it"? Well that's the million dollar question. I don't have an answer for what we should do. What we SHOULDN'T do, however, is give Putin an inch we don't have to.

I just think we need to be more practical and less emotional about these things.

 

[Stevicus]

Roll over?

Why not do something?

Do what?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

We know this for sure?



As far as their history goes, most of the time, they've been defending against those who attack them.



It's merely a perception on how they see themselves, neither European nor Asian - and I would hardly call that a universal school of thought. It's just like our ideas of Manifest Destiny, American Exceptionalism, the American Dream - that kind of stuff. You can read into it whatever you want.



I just think we need to be more practical and less emotional about these things.

No, we know this stuff for sure, and it's not just "perception", this stuff is in textbooks taught at Russian universities and command colleges. I'm on my phone so can't do long responses, but if you google "Eurasianism" or "4th political theory", you'll find plenty. Or wait until I get home and I'll give some direct links.

 

[Sleeppy]

Do what?

1) Something to prevent the next attack.
2) Something retaliatory for the previous attacks.

 

[Stevicus]

No, we know this stuff for sure, and it's not just "perception", this stuff is in textbooks taught at Russian universities and command colleges. I'm on my phone so can't do long responses, but if you google "Eurasianism" or "4th political theory", you'll find plenty. Or wait until I get home and I'll give some direct links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasianism

Eurasianism (Russian: Евразийство, Yevraziystvo) is a political movement in Russia, formerly within the primarily Russian émigré community,[citation needed] that posits that Russian civilisation does not belong in the "European" or "Asian" categories but instead to the geopolitical concept of Eurasia. Originally developing in the 1920s, the movement was supportive of the Bolshevik Revolution but not its stated goals of enacting communism, seeing the Soviet Union as a stepping stone on the path to creating a new national identity that would reflect the unique character of Russia's geopolitical position. The movement saw a minor resurgence after the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of the 20th century, and is mirrored by Turanism in Turkic and Uralicnations.

The idea that Russia is neither European nor Asian is a concept I've studied before, and yes, it is a perception. It doesn't mean that every Russian believes it, nor should it be interpreted as some kind of blueprint for world conquest. You're just projecting here.

 

[Stevicus]

1) Something to prevent the next attack.
2) Something retaliatory for the previous attacks.

You mean we haven't been doing this already?

 

[Sleeppy]

You mean we haven't been doing this already?

Not enough.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasianism



The idea that Russia is neither European nor Asian is a concept I've studied before, and yes, it is a perception. It doesn't mean that every Russian believes it, nor should it be interpreted as some kind of blueprint for world conquest. You're just projecting here.

I didn't say EVERY Russian believes it. What's important is that the Russian leadership believes it. And you need to do a great deal more reading. It's a political movement named after the geography, not just the geography. I'm not projecting anything. I'm trying to tell you unambiguous, clearly documented objective facts. I'm at a loss as to why you're so willfully resistant to taking in this information.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

1) Something to prevent the next attack.
2) Something retaliatory for the previous attacks.

Ideally, yes. But as the saying goes, "...and the mice should bell the cat".

 

[Stevicus]

I didn't say EVERY Russian believes it. What's important is that the Russian leadership believes it. And you need to do a great deal more reading. It's a political movement named after the geography, not just the geography. I'm not projecting anything. I'm trying to tell you unambiguous, clearly documented objective facts. I'm at a loss as to why you're so willfully resistant to taking in this information.

Because I've studied Russian history and their culture from a more big picture point of view, and yes, I'm aware that this and similar concepts have come up within their political, cultural, and social history. I'm not discounting what you say here, nor am I resistant to taking in the information, but there's another side to it you may not be considering.

The point is, just because they might have a certain view about their identity as Russians, it doesn't necessarily imply anything insidious or threatening to the West.

Putin may be many things - a criminal, a scoundrel, and I don't know what else. But he doesn't really strike me as stupid or crazy. If he goes too far, he can be deposed; they've done it before. But if other world leaders and governments oppose him, and start saber-rattling and escalating the rhetoric, then the people will give Putin even greater support as defending Russia against her enemies.

Regardless of how the Russians might see themselves or what the Russian leadership believes in (and again, I'm not saying that they don't believe that), we have to look at the situation from multiple angles. First, if we push too far in trying to alienate and isolate Russia, it could have serious repercussions in other areas of the world (which is what happened during the Cold War). Countries which have grown weary of Western hegemony could once again see Russia as a potential savior. China is still a wild card which could go either way. With continued turmoil in Latin America, Africa, Middle East, Asia - I don't think it's very wise to try to turn Russia into some kind of pariah.

I think we would do well to try to get Russia and China on our side. Instead of spending so much money and resources on opposing each other, we could work together to settle the problems in the rest of the world and stabilize, organize, and modernize all these trouble spots and points of conflict we keep hearing about in the news. Some things we may not be able to resolve to anyone's satisfaction - such as Tibet, Ukraine, Taiwan, Crimea - things like that. But one thing is certain is that harsh rhetoric and saber-rattling will not resolve those issues over the long haul. We need to be practical about some things.

I'm not saying that they're a bunch of choir boys; they have their darker business side as well, just as we do. I can also understand their resentment over the circumstances of the break up of the Soviet Union. It was a major humiliation. They saw their country invaded by carpetbaggers, they lived under some kind of "mafia" rule - total economic chaos, violence, unrest. Young women and girls being sold to sex traffickers. Their children being adopted by Western parents. I can see where more than a few people would be resentful and upset by what was going on, which is how a guy like Putin can come to power in the first place.

Meanwhile, NATO was expanding in size and even enhancing their defenses (such as that missile defense shield in Poland) against Russia, which the Russians might have perceived as insulting and provocative.

I don't believe the Russians are planning to attack the West, and they'd be foolish to do so in any event. But if they appear to be hostile to the West as of late, let's not be so coy as to think that it just came up out of the blue for no reason or that the West had nothing to do with it. They're responding as a country which has been provoked and threatened countless times.

I'm not saying that we should let them get away with anything, and I'm well aware of the corruption in their political system - probably more corrupt than ours. But I believe in being fair with them as well. If we try to see things from their point of view, it might be easier to understand why they do what they do.

The bottom line is that neither Putin nor Trump will live forever, and Russians and Americans will have to find ways of coexisting with each other long after both leaders are gone. Both countries have factions which hold to nationalistic or quasi-nationalistic mindsets - and this also exists in other countries. I don't know what this means or even which direction either country is taking at present. I'm not sure if we should take a more peaceful course or if a more warlike path is inevitable.

Honestly, I'm not sure where any of this is leading, especially in a world where nukes and WMDs are a very real thing. We're so worried about North Korea having nukes, Iran might get nukes. This is the big fear these days, but I'm not sure if there's much we can do to prevent it. The only thing we can really do at this point is to try to get the world to operate in a more cooperative frame of mind.

 

[Stevicus]

Not enough.

Well, maybe so, although I can't answer everything here. I'm not even sure Trump can answer for it, since he's not a computer expert either. It's simply a matter of their techies versus our techies and seeing which side has the smarter geeks. That would be just as true whether we're defending against further attacks or retaliating with attacks in kind.

Another thing we could do is just click the "off" switch to the internet, but then we wouldn't be able to post to RF anymore.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Because I've studied Russian history and their culture from a more big picture point of view, and yes, I'm aware that this and similar concepts have come up within their political, cultural, and social history. I'm not discounting what you say here, nor am I resistant to taking in the information, but there's another side to it you may not be considering.

The point is, just because they might have a certain view about their identity as Russians, it doesn't necessarily imply anything insidious or threatening to the West.

Putin may be many things - a criminal, a scoundrel, and I don't know what else. But he doesn't really strike me as stupid or crazy. If he goes too far, he can be deposed; they've done it before. But if other world leaders and governments oppose him, and start saber-rattling and escalating the rhetoric, then the people will give Putin even greater support as defending Russia against her enemies.

Regardless of how the Russians might see themselves or what the Russian leadership believes in (and again, I'm not saying that they don't believe that), we have to look at the situation from multiple angles. First, if we push too far in trying to alienate and isolate Russia, it could have serious repercussions in other areas of the world (which is what happened during the Cold War). Countries which have grown weary of Western hegemony could once again see Russia as a potential savior. China is still a wild card which could go either way. With continued turmoil in Latin America, Africa, Middle East, Asia - I don't think it's very wise to try to turn Russia into some kind of pariah.

I think we would do well to try to get Russia and China on our side. Instead of spending so much money and resources on opposing each other, we could work together to settle the problems in the rest of the world and stabilize, organize, and modernize all these trouble spots and points of conflict we keep hearing about in the news. Some things we may not be able to resolve to anyone's satisfaction - such as Tibet, Ukraine, Taiwan, Crimea - things like that. But one thing is certain is that harsh rhetoric and saber-rattling will not resolve those issues over the long haul. We need to be practical about some things.

I'm not saying that they're a bunch of choir boys; they have their darker business side as well, just as we do. I can also understand their resentment over the circumstances of the break up of the Soviet Union. It was a major humiliation. They saw their country invaded by carpetbaggers, they lived under some kind of "mafia" rule - total economic chaos, violence, unrest. Young women and girls being sold to sex traffickers. Their children being adopted by Western parents. I can see where more than a few people would be resentful and upset by what was going on, which is how a guy like Putin can come to power in the first place.

Meanwhile, NATO was expanding in size and even enhancing their defenses (such as that missile defense shield in Poland) against Russia, which the Russians might have perceived as insulting and provocative.

I don't believe the Russians are planning to attack the West, and they'd be foolish to do so in any event. But if they appear to be hostile to the West as of late, let's not be so coy as to think that it just came up out of the blue for no reason or that the West had nothing to do with it. They're responding as a country which has been provoked and threatened countless times.

I'm not saying that we should let them get away with anything, and I'm well aware of the corruption in their political system - probably more corrupt than ours. But I believe in being fair with them as well. If we try to see things from their point of view, it might be easier to understand why they do what they do.

The bottom line is that neither Putin nor Trump will live forever, and Russians and Americans will have to find ways of coexisting with each other long after both leaders are gone. Both countries have factions which hold to nationalistic or quasi-nationalistic mindsets - and this also exists in other countries. I don't know what this means or even which direction either country is taking at present. I'm not sure if we should take a more peaceful course or if a more warlike path is inevitable.

Honestly, I'm not sure where any of this is leading, especially in a world where nukes and WMDs are a very real thing. We're so worried about North Korea having nukes, Iran might get nukes. This is the big fear these days, but I'm not sure if there's much we can do to prevent it. The only thing we can really do at this point is to try to get the world to operate in a more cooperative frame of mind.

You seem to be trying to pick an argument where we're not reallydisagreeing then. What have I specifically said that you think is incorrect? Like, with actual quotes and stuff?