Women, Give Us A Break

[Skwim]

A huge Ulta store (sells womens cosmetics, perfume, and such) just opened in my neighborhood, and it got me thinking about all the trouble women went to make themselves look better. They seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and money on clothing, accessories, hair stylists, and makeup just to look good, which is fine with me. I loooves a well groomed, good looking woman. Then I started to think about how women of late have begun to complain about how we men treat them: eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips, starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirt or deep cut blouse.

I know this observation isn't original to me. I've heard it a couple of times before from others. However, it still holds true.

If women don't want us eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips. starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirts, or deep cut blouse, then why do they bother to put on lipstick or wear padded and push up bras, or wear mini skirts, bikinis, and blouses with plunging necklines? And the worst part is that we men have to listen to their whining about how we treat them. Objectifying them. Treating them like "meat." while what we are suppose to be doing is ignoring all these calculated sexual, come-hither signals and concentrate on what's in their heads.

Here's a clue women. We're going to take you up on your stratagems. Put on a bikini and we'll be looking you up and down. Wear a crazy red on your lips and we'll notice, Put on a padded or pushup bra and we'll be starring. Wear a mini skirt or a blouse with a plunging neckline and we could very well tell you how much we appreciated it. And isn't this what you're after, our attention and appreciation. If it isn't then stop wasting your time and money on these things, stop your whining and pick up one of those. "Take Me As I Am--Armpit Hair And All" feminist banners and march for your right to be ignored. We'll be happy to comply.

.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I always thought women wore makeup and perfume because they were ugly and smelled bad. I guess that's just the gay guy talking...

 

[Debater Slayer]

A huge Ulta store (sells womens cosmetics, perfume, and such) just opened in my neighborhood, and it got me thinking about all the trouble women went to make themselves look better. They seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and money on clothing, accessories, hair stylists, and makeup just to look good, which is fine with me. I loooves a well groomed, good looking woman. Then I started to think about how women of late have begun to complain about how we men treat them: eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips, starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirt or deep cut blouse.

I know this observation isn't new to me. I've heard it a couple of times before from others. However, it still holds true.

If women don't want us eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips. starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirts, or deep cut blouse, then why do they bother to put on lipstick or wear padded and push up bras, or wear mini skirts, bikinis, and blouses with plunging necklines? And the worst part is that we men have to listen to their whining about how we treat them. Objectifying them. Treating them like "meat." while what we are suppose to be doing is ignoring all these calculated sexual, come-hither signals and concentrate on what's in their heads.

Here's a clue women. We're going to take you up on your stratagems. Put on a bikini and we'll be looking you up and down. Wear a crazy red on your lips and we'll notice, Put on a padded or pushup bra and we'll be starring. Wear a mini skirt or a blouse with a plunging neckline and we could very well tell you how much we appreciated it. And isn't this what you're after, our attention and appreciation. If it isn't then stop wasting your time and money on these things, stop your whining and pick up one of those. "Take Me As I Am--Armpit Hair And All" feminist banners and march for your right to be ignored. We'll be happy to comply.

.

Well, first things first: speak for yourself. You're not all men, and I know for a fact that not all of us have this self-centered, androcentric view on the motives of women who wear makeup, style their hair, or wear a lot of accessories.

Second, you seem to be under the impression that women necessarily dress well or spend time and money grooming themselves to appeal to men. What if they're doing that to enjoy themselves and aren't even thinking about men in the process (which is the case for several women I know, including a close friend)? What if they're lesbians? What if they're simply passionate about fashion and wear makeup and groom themselves as a hobby rather than a way to attract anyone, be they male or female?

Respecting the boundaries of women by not staring excessively or objectifying them has nothing to do with how they're dressed; it has to do with their person. Whether a woman is wearing a bikini or a niqab is up to her and is her prerogative, not yours. What is under your control, however, is your own attitude and behavior toward others, and because of this, you shouldn't stare excessively or objectify her in either case. The world doesn't revolve around men, and neither do women's clothing and cosmetic choices.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well, first things first: speak for yourself. You're not all men, and I know for a fact that not all of us have this self-centered, androcentric view on the motives of women who wear makeup, style their hair, or wear a lot of accessories.

Second, you seem to be under the impression that women necessarily dress well or spend time and money grooming themselves to appeal to men. What if they're doing that to enjoy themselves and aren't even thinking about men in the process (which is the case for several women I know, including a close friend)? What if they're lesbians? What if they're simply passionate about fashion and wear makeup and groom themselves as a hobby rather than a way to attract anyone, be they male or female?

Respecting the boundaries of women by not staring excessively or objectifying them has nothing to do with how they're dressed; it has to do with their person. Whether a woman is wearing a bikini or a niqab is up to her and is her prerogative, not yours. What is under your control, however, is your own attitude and behavior toward others, and because of this, you shouldn't stare excessively or objectify her in either case. The world doesn't revolve around men, and neither do women's clothing and cosmetic choices.

Oh God!

 

[Debater Slayer]

Oh God!

I appreciate brevity, but only when it's accompanied by clarity. What point did you wish to make there?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I appreciate brevity, but only when it's accompanied by clarity. What point did you wish to make there?

You just remind me one of those guys at school who incessantly take the fight for professional victimized women as that one male "stop objectifying women!!!!" dude I just came from lifting weights at 24 hour fitness and I see a lot of women wearing a sh*t ton of makeup and all types of cleavage showing. A lot of women do love positive attention. This is why nurses I work with get butt implants and breast implants. If men weren't paying attention to specific things most women wouldn't get them. There are some, not all, but a lot that do things (women) do for the attention of men. I live in California, the most materialistic state outside New York, I know for a fact. As my right wing friends would say, stop being that beta male.

Edit: I personally don't care what women do I just observe but I hardly feel sorry for when women do things to place themselves knowingly to attract negative attention. It's like putting a Ribeye steak in a lion's cage and question why lions are stalking you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You just remind me one of those guys at school who incessantly take the fight for professional victimized women as that one male "stop objectifying women!!!!" dude I just came from lifting weights at 24 hour fitness and I see a lot of women wearing a **** ton of makeup and all types of cleavage showing. A lot of women do love positive attention. This is why nurses I work with get butt implants and breast implants. If men weren't paying attention to specific things most women wouldn't get them. There are women not some, not all, but a lot that do things for the attention of men. I live in California, the most materialistic state outside New York, I know for a fact. As my right wing friends would say, stop being that beta male.

I don't know where I denied that a lot of women love attention—even though it doesn't have to be attention from men, mind you. As I said, maybe they're lesbians, or maybe they're looking for attention from their friends or colleagues for reasons that have nothing to do with sexuality. On the other hand, generalizing and saying that must be the case for all or even most women who groom themselves or wear a lot of makeup seems pretty brittle to me as far as logic goes.

The idea of a "beta male" is so juvenile that I find it interesting you're using it in the same post where you said I reminded you of "one of those guys at school." Your right-wing friends sound... well, a bit too right-wing if they're using that term unironically.

 

[Quintessence]

Second, you seem to be under the impression that women necessarily dress well or spend time and money grooming themselves to appeal to men.

Well, certainly some of us avoid doing all of those things because we live in $#@% up cultures that assume "woman does X, therefore sex object."

(Well, that and it's all kind of a waste of money, IMHO.)

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I don't know where I denied that a lot of women love attention—even though it doesn't have to be attention from men, mind you. As I said, maybe they're lesbians, or maybe they're looking for attention from their friends or colleagues for reasons that have nothing to do with sexuality. On the other hand, generalizing and saying that must be the case for all or even most women who groom themselves or wear a lot of makeup seems pretty brittle to me as far as logic goes.

The idea of a "beta male" is so juvenile that I find it interesting you're using it in the same post where you said I reminded you of "one of those guys at school." Your right-wing friends sound... well, a bit too right-wing if they're using that term unironically.

I debate with a lot of right wing republicans at school during intercession so that phrase comes up a lot. I personally don't like it but I couldn't think of another phrase to describe what I read. I don't know all, or most women, but I know a lot and what I do know is there is no sense in having a cake face going to the gym. Or wearing things that display your "ornaments." There are a lot of women here in Cali that love attention. A lot are self-absorbed and rely on the attention of men to define themselves (enter snapchat, instagram).

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well, certainly some of us avoid doing all of those things because we live in $#@% up cultures that assume "woman does X, therefore sex object."

(Well, that and it's all kind of a waste of money, IMHO.)

This is why I wonder if that is the case then what say ye oh women about the strippers and sex workers. I mean there are a lot of women that like being sexually objectified just like men.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I debate with a lot of right wing republicans at school during intercession so that phrase comes up a lot. I personally don't like it but I couldn't think of another phrase to describe what I read. I don't know all, or most women, but I know a lot and what I do know is there is no sense in having a cake face going to the gym. Or wearing things that display your "ornaments." There are a lot of women here in Cali that love attention. A lot are self-absorbed and rely on the attention of men to define themselves (enter snapchat, instagram).

Again, "a lot," not all or most. Generalizations typically fail at being accurate or reasonable. I kinda thought you'd agree with this given how you feel about racist generalizations, but maybe I was wrong.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I'm all for respecting women, but I've got to go with Skwim on this one. Especially during late night bar rushes at my job, I've seen my fair share of women wearing shirts that are see-through (often with no bras), or just going braless and both jutting out enough to cut glass while also showing off enough cleavage to make the Grand Canyon jealous. With the way some women dress, there's either a hell of a lot of confusion going on as to whether or not they want us to notice them, or... I got nothing. I legitimately cannot see any other alternative for dressing that way. I've even seen women walking around in miniskirts and thongs when it's in the 20's, so it's not an issue of comfort.

 

[SomeRandom]

A huge Ulta store (sells womens cosmetics, perfume, and such) just opened in my neighborhood, and it got me thinking about all the trouble women went to make themselves look better. They seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and money on clothing, accessories, hair stylists, and makeup just to look good, which is fine with me. I loooves a well groomed, good looking woman. Then I started to think about how women of late have begun to complain about how we men treat them: eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips, starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirt or deep cut blouse.

I know this observation isn't new to me. I've heard it a couple of times before from others. However, it still holds true.

If women don't want us eyeing them up and down in their bikinis, looking at their luscious lips. starring at their boobs, commenting on their miniskirts, or deep cut blouse, then why do they bother to put on lipstick or wear padded and push up bras, or wear mini skirts, bikinis, and blouses with plunging necklines? And the worst part is that we men have to listen to their whining about how we treat them. Objectifying them. Treating them like "meat." while what we are suppose to be doing is ignoring all these calculated sexual, come-hither signals and concentrate on what's in their heads.

Here's a clue women. We're going to take you up on your stratagems. Put on a bikini and we'll be looking you up and down. Wear a crazy red on your lips and we'll notice, Put on a padded or pushup bra and we'll be starring. Wear a mini skirt or a blouse with a plunging neckline and we could very well tell you how much we appreciated it. And isn't this what you're after, our attention and appreciation. If it isn't then stop wasting your time and money on these things, stop your whining and pick up one of those. "Take Me As I Am--Armpit Hair And All" feminist banners and march for your right to be ignored. We'll be happy to comply.

.

Or perhaps they're beholden to a world that judges everything and everyone by looks? Perhaps the multi billion dollar fashion and makeup industry successful peer pressure and shame women of all ages (beginning alarmingly young) to "dress for success" using a particular model of sexually alluring or perfectly perfumed, manicured, make up did and dressed to seduce?
It's one thing to glance at a person and appreciate, ahem, certain aspects. I'm sure I have done many a double take at bare chested muscular men in my time.
But we are supposed to be a civilized nation. We are supposed to be adults with self restraint and discipline. We are, in theory, supposedly adults with notions of polite decorum.
Of course, if men are all such wild beasts they have to stare at the mere notion of a naked body like a bunch of 13 year olds dreaming of touching a boob for the first time, then fine. We'll give you a break. Perhaps even a time out.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

My first post in this thread was obviously very tongue in cheek. Let me be a bit more serious now.

When I was much younger, the people I knew went to quite great lengths to make themselves attractive, to show off their assets (and their asses). It's amazing what an extra pair of socks, rolled just so and worn just to the right of the left front pants pocket can suggest.

The point was, obviously, to be objectified, and for that objectification to turn into something hopefully very pleasant for all concerned.

I know lots will say, "well, that was only the gays!" No, it wasn't. Women did it too, with the same objective (possibly only slightly delayed beyond "tonight").

And you know what? It worked. Got lots of objectified attention. And then came what you did with that...if it wasn't the attention you were looking for, you politely made that known and moved on. Rather like sticking a worm on my hook when I was much younger and fishing in the Jock River near Ottawa. If I caught the intended bass, you took it and ate it. If you caught a sunfish, you got it off the hook and threw it back.

Back then, we called it "saying no," without feeling offended that we were asked, because we asked to be asked.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Y'know, we hear a lot that society is conditioning women to dress slutty. But - and I ask this genuinely - is it really? Or is there something to be said for supplying the demand? It's become common to treat it as though women are completely blameless, mere putty in the hands of The Media, but is that really the case? Because I daresay that there's a bit more budget spending going on these days, a bit more conscious thought as to what's being bought, and there's no shortage of modest dress. So on some level, there's a conscious effort to buy revealing and displaying clothing. But to what end? It's not like women can appreciate their own arse hanging out of a mini skirt.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Again, "a lot," not all or most. Generalizations typically fail at being accurate or reasonable. I kinda thought you'd agree with this given how you feel about racist generalizations, but maybe I was wrong.

I don't believe in generalizations especially for people I don't know. I just disagree with your presentation. I guess I just have different experiences than you. You can assume what you want apparently that is what everyone else does here about me.

 

[Revoltingest]

Y'know, we hear a lot that society is conditioning women to dress slutty. But - and I ask this genuinely - is it really? Or is there something to be said for supplying the demand? It's become common to treat it as though women are completely blameless, mere putty in the hands of The Media, but is that really the case? Because I daresay that there's a bit more budget spending going on these days, a bit more conscious thought as to what's being bought, and there's no shortage of modest dress. So on some level, there's a conscious effort to buy revealing and displaying clothing. But to what end? It's not like women can appreciate their own arse hanging out of a mini skirt.

No one wears a see-thru blouse for practicality.
It's to project hotness.

Respect is....
- Staring covertly.
- Not drooling or panting (except for heat stroke).
- Not touching without invitation.
- If they catch us looking, it's only briefly.
- Letting them look too.

 

[Skwim]

Well, first things first: speak for yourself.

If you thought I was speaking for anyone but myself, you've got a lot of English composition to brush up on.

You're not all men,

Darn!

Second, you seem to be under the impression that women necessarily dress well or spend time and money grooming themselves to appeal to men. What if they're doing that to enjoy themselves and aren't even thinking about men in the process (which is the case for several women I know, including a close friend)? What if they're lesbians? What if they're simply passionate about fashion and wear makeup and groom themselves as a hobby rather than a way to attract anyone, be they male or female?

OMG, lighten up buckaroo.

I recall reading a study that showed when faced with a lack of males in a community, the females made far less of an effort to make themselves attractive. Some, even to the point of giving up altogether.

Respecting the boundaries of women by not staring excessively or objectifying them has nothing to do with how they're dressed; it has to do with their person.

Exactly. Women get to create a persona and then decide how it should be regarded. "I'm going to look like this, AND this is how I expect to viewed." They know how to press the male testosterone button and then play with it. "I'm going to put on the sexiest bikini I can find and god help the character who might ogle me." It's a game they play for crying out loud. Sometimes with the serious intent of snagging some guy, and sometimes just for the thrill of being chased and panted over.

Whether a woman is wearing a bikini or a niqab is up to her and is her prerogative, not yours.

Good grief. The whole male-female dance is pretty much choreographed by her, and you've bought into it. Truth is, both males and females lead and follow, but at different stages of the dance. And although a female might like to call all the shots in the beginning---"I'll dress sexy but get to say what he does with it"---that's only an expectation. We guys (well at least most of us DS) don't always buy into their ploy, and call them on it---If you're going to dress sexy be prepared be noticed, because, after all, we both know that's why you've dressed the way you have." Of course this is an extreme, but don't kid yourself, the same female mindset is carried throughout the day no matter what the situation or what shes wearing. For her, the game is always on. Except of course, for the few who find it more attention getting to whine about whatever male attention they can deem untoward. Thing is, in either case, they get to call attention to their better points. 1) by letting their better points speak for themselves, or 2) whining about the undo attention they're attracting.

What is under your control, however, is your own attitude and behavior toward others, and because of this, you shouldn't stare excessively or objectify her in either case.

All depends on the situation. There are a hundred and one other cues, well maybe only a dozen or so, that have to be considered. But in main, women dress to be noticed by men, at least until they reach their forties.

.

 

[SomeRandom]

Y'know, we hear a lot that society is conditioning women to dress slutty. But - and I ask this genuinely - is it really? Or is there something to be said for supplying the demand? It's become common to treat it as though women are completely blameless, mere putty in the hands of The Media, but is that really the case? Because I daresay that there's a bit more budget spending going on these days, a bit more conscious thought as to what's being bought, and there's no shortage of modest dress. So on some level, there's a conscious effort to buy revealing and displaying clothing. But to what end? It's not like women can appreciate their own arse hanging out of a mini skirt.

Isn't that sort of like the chicken and the egg scenario? I mean speaking as a woman, I will say that how products are advertised is certainly at least influential. I mean isn't that the entire point of advertising to begin with? And a lot of it is rather sexualized, for both sexes. Some of it starting a little bit too young, imo. But whatever.
Two ad campaigns come to my mind. One comes from vogue. It is of a woman appearing sophisticated, alluring and accomplished. She has perfect make up, a hot bod, is clearly monetarily successful, is wearing an elegant but still revealing dress and high heels. The model of a successful woman. Obviously women will know this is fake. But it is a rather seductive notion all the same.
Another comes from K-Mart in my country of Australia. (K- Mart is basically a general store selling things like clothes, books, DVDs and electronics for reference.) They did an ad campaign for women's underwear. It emphasized the different sizes, shapes and even colours of women, in an obvious effort to celebrate diversity and increase their demographic and to at least partially address the shaming tactics some companies use. Is this a variety in the market? Absolutely. But Vogue carries with it public connotations of success, K-Mart carries with it a reputation of cheap if good-ish quality items. One is accessible, although it might be seen as a little tacky. The other is seen as illustrious and sophisticated, but unreasonably priced.

When it's pointed out how things are marketed, very few mean it to mean we are all slaves to corporations, blinding obeying media. It's just that it may perhaps be a mitigating factor in how young women and men perceive themselves. I mean geez, there's a myriad of after school specials focusing on that element exclusively, because it's often a concern among teenagers. That sort of issue doesn't just happen in a vacuum at random.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If you thought I was speaking for anyone but myself, you've got a lot of English composition to brush up on.


Darn!


OMG, lighten up buckaroo.

I recall reading a study that showed when faced with a lack of males in a community, the females made far less of an effort to make themselves attractive. Some, even to the point of giving up altogether.


Exactly. Women get to create a persona and then decide how it should be regarded. "I'm going to look like this, AND this is how I expect to viewed." They know how to press the male testosterone button and then play with it. "I'm going to put on the sexiest bikini I can find and god help the character who might ogle me." It's a game they play for crying out loud. Sometimes with the serious intent of snagging some guy, and sometimes just for the thrill of being chased and panted over.


Good grief. The whole male-female dance is pretty much choreographed by her, and you've bought into it. Truth is, both males and females lead and follow, but at different stages of the dance. And although a female might like to call all the shots in the beginning---"I'll dress sexy but get to say what he does with it"---that's only an expectation. We guys (well at least most of us DS) don't always buy into their ploy, and call them on it---If you're going to dress sexy be prepared be noticed, because, after all, we both know that's why you've dressed the way you have." Of course this is an extreme, but don't kid yourself, the same female mindset is carried throughout the day no matter what the situation or what shes wearing. For her, the game is always on. Except of course, for the few who find it more attention getting to whine about whatever male attention they can deem untoward. Thing is, in either case, they get to call attention to their better points. 1) by letting their better points speak for themselves, or 2) whining about the undo attention they're attracting.


All depends on the situation. There are a hundred and one other cues, well maybe only a dozen or so, that have to be considered. But in main, women dress to be noticed by men, at least until they reach their forties.

.

Usually, I only leave discussions if I have nothing to say or I find that there's too much childish or otherwise unproductive rhetoric for debating to be worthwhile. This is one of those cases where I see enough childish ranting and self-absorbed misconceptions to believe that it's worth neither my time nor my effort to pursue this discussion any further.

Have a nice day. Maybe one day you'll realize that the world doesn't revolve around men's expectations, I suppose.