The watchmaker

[ERLOS]

Tell me what the "beach" represents... just do it. Stop trying to dodge my point and just do it. C'mon man...

Whatever lies outside the universe? Was that so hard?

"Just perhaps"... well dang! Now that you put it that way - let me just go and rewire my brain to accept all the things you do and sign me up for the "good" religion (whichever one it is)!!!!!

Oh wait... hellnonotachance.

Should I care what you want to do with your brain? It's tiring me to death trying to follow it ...

 

[Milton Platt]

Whatever lies outside the universe?




Should I care what you want to do with your brain? It's tiring me to death trying to follow it ...

I have no idea what lies outside of the known universe, or if anything at all does. Please enlighten everyone as to how you came by such knowledge.

 

[ERLOS]

I have no idea what lies outside of the known universe, or if anything at all does. Please enlighten everyone as to how you came by such knowledge.

Oh? I read some science books. String theory and so on. Really, goodnight now ...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Whatever lies outside the universe?

Should I care what you want to do with your brain? It's tiring me to death trying to follow it ...

As far as I can tell, I've been the more straightforward of the two of us.

Please go back through and count the number of times I used words/concepts in my posts that barely have a meaning or any support to them (well, ignoring any of the times I was being facetious of course), and then go back through and do the same for your own posts.

Here are some I found in your posts:

• "spirit"
• "Whatever lies outside the universe"
• "mind of God"
• "Spirit surrounds and contains and permeates"
• " higher SPIRITUAL intelligence"
• "Einstein was f**king EINSTEIN, bro"

 

[osgart]

You find a watch on a deserted beach. You pick it up, and notice all the intricate parts. That's an interesting watch...

How is an animal such as a human being akin to a watch. A watch is precisely made, synchronized, and accurately put together.

This is an argument where either you accept it or dont. The form and functionality of the human being is evidence, or it is not.

Personally i see many flaws in the watch, so the watchmaker had to be unskilled in its makings. And i cant see mindless laws producing anything of any accurate significance.

The functionality just happens to be is a weak argument. Yet i see no god forthcoming.

A person can list a sequence of purely mindless incidental natural physical events that lead to the watch becoming, and thus, still, explain nothing of whether there was a watchmaker or not.

If you dont accept the watchmaker argument as proof, and a human being as evidence of some sort of a creative act, then obviously nothing will satisfy for evidence.

A materialist reductionist will always laugh at the argument due to the fact that there is no physical presence of a creator. They need only physical explanation, or there is nothing else existing.

The key point for me is why is there any utility whatsoever that aids the human in survival. And there is no mindless reason why it should be highly functional.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But you do have the hallmarks of design, if you are using equational and consistent logic.

So why are you using a watch in your analogy? If everything has the hallmarks of design, why introduce the watch?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, only if you deliberately choose to ignore the spirit of the analogy by trying to be smart with words.

The spirit of the analogy is that the designed watch stands out against an undesigned background because the watch bears the hallmarks of design in a way that the background does not.

The universe originated out of nothing, an infinite singularity, and 13.7 billion years later, you are here with consciousness to perceive and consider it.

And you can still believe that physical man is the highest intelligence in the universe?

Use another analogy from Einstein's, if you like. The object stays the same

This is a separate discussion. If you want to make an argument that the universe was designed that doesn't rely on the specious watchmaker analogy, be my guest, but it won't make the watchmaker argument rational.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think you need a better argument.

Actually, a little knowledge of biology and basic understanding of natural selection go a long way.

 

[Mox]

You find a watch on a deserted beach. You pick it up, and notice all the intricate parts. That's an interesting watch...

I would then proceed to hand it in to the police, since taking goods belonging to another with the mens rea of permanently depriving the rightful owner of them would amount to theft under E&W law.

Any questions?

 

[David T]

When you find watches breeding and having baby watches come back and start a thread. Until then this idea is thoroughly debunked.

True nuff although Newton would totally disagree at the time of his existence. The watch as model or any model for that matter is always always not nature but a model regardless..

 

[Milton Platt]

Oh? I read some science books. String theory and so on. Really, goodnight now ...

I have read some science books too. Doesn’t mean I understand string theory.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There's no question we are "designed" by cellular life. Microbiology.

Not any assumed God.

 

[nPeace]

You find a watch on a deserted beach. You pick it up, and notice all the intricate parts. That's an interesting watch...

I found a rabbit in the bushes, I picked it up and took it home. For the 90 years of my life, I watched the rabbit, hoping that I would see several others. The rabbit died... alone.

 

[godnotgod]

What does an uncreated universe look like?

An interesting observation is that, when one looks up into the night sky, it becomes apparent that everything you see seems to be just right, without being deliberate, or telltale.

"The geese, when flying over the still pond, do not intend to cast their shadows;
nor does the pond intend to reflect their images"
Zen source

 

[godnotgod]

There's no question we are "designed" by cellular life. Microbiology.

Not any assumed God.

'Design' always infers a 'designer'. A better descriptor might be 'patterns', rather than 'design', perhaps?

 

[godnotgod]

Oh, forget the watch. Deliberate misunderstanding is always the sign of defeat in a discussion.

A naked Amazon indian out hunting birds with a blowpipe is suddenly confronted with a Google driverless car. Does he think it's just another animal?

Quickly, he pulls out his iPad and checks. Yup! There it is just as he predicted: the Google driverless car. A rare species. Confident now, he raises his blowpipe and takes careful aim....a direct hit! goal! goal! goal! ...er...What?

 

[ERLOS]

Everyone's going on about a beach and deliberately wilfully ignoring Einstein's original statement (already posted twice above) which is the origin of the watchmaker debate and makes no mention of a beach.

 

[ERLOS]

Actually, a little knowledge of biology and basic understanding of natural selection go a long way.

But why do you keep implying that people are ignorant and stupid? It's not about evolution and natural selection. It's not about young earth fundamentalism. It's about contemplation of the complexity of whole universe.

It's about cause, not mechanism. Perhaps you should read that sentence again. And the person who started 'the thread' was Albert Einstein.

 

[ERLOS]

I have read some science books too. Doesn’t mean I understand string theory.

Me neither, of course -- except in very layman type of way, lol.

But perhaps we don't have to go on trying. Most physicists are beginning to turn their backs on it? Or at least saying they're not going to hold their breath for evidence of supersymetry?

 

[ERLOS]

I found a rabbit in the bushes, I picked it up and took it home. For the 90 years of my life, I watched the rabbit, hoping that I would see several others. The rabbit died... alone.

You weren't very smart ...