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Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?


  • Total voters
    57

siti

Well-Known Member
My point was simply that over one fifth of the world population is not likely to be wrong about Muhammad being a Messenger of God
So how likely is it that a fifth of the world's population is wrong about Muhammad being the last "Messenger of God"? How likely is it that a third of the world's population are wrong about Jesus being God himself incarnate? If you want to play the numbers game, approximately 99.9% of the world's population do not subscribe to Baha'i beliefs about Messengers of God generally or Baha'u'llah's status as a divine messenger specifically. How likely is it that they are all wrong?
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
"Baha'is reject"

Bahais are human beings, they are free to have any belief they like.
Likewise I don't agree with them.

I would like to ask, which one is God among Krishna, Jesus and Bahaullh, please?
There is no compulsion to respond it, only respond if one wills to do it.

Regards
None of them are God incarnate. All are Manifestations of God according to Baha’i teachings.

There is only One God and the Manifestations of God are special Messengers whose Revelation from God established the great religions. Muhammad, Moses, Buddha, and Zoroaster are other examples.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That's the motivation - but the message? I don't think Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion out of religious motives - it was a shrewd political and economic move - but the message he had spread throughout the empire was religious - religious hype. Likewise with the Islamic "conquest" of Indonesia - which was precipitated mostly by trade - but also by military control of trade routes and markets and the conversion of members of the ruling classes...and the odd war of course - can't have a divine message delivered without a war now and again to underline its importance can we. Anyway, you're right - the motivation is political power and economic exploitation - but the message and the means of controlling the subjugated populace is religion.

So the question is - if these great messengers were carrying great messages from God himself - why did they need the sword to advance the cause? Was God's message lacking in power?
Gods Message is doing just fine. The majority of the worlds population are either Christian or Muslim after a relatively short span of history. God does not leave us to ourselves but provides us with the guidance for the age we live in.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Oh, ok. From your response earlier it looked like you thought I had said that everyone in the world could become a prophet until the destruction of the first Temple after which only Jewish people can. So I just wanted to make sure.
I don't think you needed to worry so much - it was fairly clear that they're not still enrolling either way.

More interesting to me is the priesthood - according to my recollection from reading (the Bible) a long time ago - is it not the case that after the destruction of the first Temple, the priesthood was restricted to a certain branch of the Levite lineage - namely the sons of Zadok? (I think its in Ezekiel). What happened to that? I mean I know what happened to it in the Christian tradition - they apparently (according to tradition) eventually founded the sect of the Sudducees who were ultimately condemned by Jesus along with the Pharisees etc. But what happened to the priesthood according to current Jewish tradition (I know there might be no or more than one answer - and I am aware that there is no temple for them to officiate in - but still, the priesthood predated the temple in scripture and the primary function of the priesthood was not necessarily tied to the temple - or even to sacrifices - was it?).

Note: I am counting this as relevant because priests were also God's messengers in the scriptural tradition - Aaron, Moses, Jeremiah...probably others were all priests as well as prophets and the primary role of the priesthood (again if I recall correctly) was to teach the people to distinguish the holy from the profane...something like that - but definitely they conveyed a divine message. I also recall that quite early on in the Bible, God declares that the entire nation would be "a kingdom" of priests (which is also a theme taken up again in the Christian scriptures in Revelation). If all God's people are to be priests - knowing the difference between the holy and the profane - what further need would there be of non-priestly "Messengers"?
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
The majority of the worlds population are either Christian or Muslim after a relatively short span of history...
..."wherein one man ruleth over another to his own hurt" - and in no small measure, by the very process of imposing politically-motivated religious subjugation - sometimes on entire populations - by the sword and by deception...maybe it is time for "sentence" to be "executed speedily" on this "evil work". (Ecclesiastes 8:9,11)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So how likely is it that a fifth of the world's population is wrong about Muhammad being the last "Messenger of God"? How likely is it that a third of the world's population are wrong about Jesus being God himself incarnate? If you want to play the numbers game, approximately 99.9% of the world's population do not subscribe to Baha'i beliefs about Messengers of God generally or Baha'u'llah's status as a divine messenger specifically. How likely is it that they are all wrong?
It is highly unlikely that a fifth of the world's population are wrong about Muhammad being a Messenger of God, but they are wrong about Muhammad being the last and final Messenger of God. It is highly unlikely that one third of the world population who believe in Jesus are wrong, although the Christians who believe that Jesus was God incarnate are wrong. It is highly likely that approximately 99.9% of the world population does not subscribe to Baha'i beliefs about Messengers of God generally or Baha'u'llah's status as a divine messenger specifically are wrong.

The fact that not many people have thus far become Baha’is is easily explainable. Many factors influence growth rate of religion and the Baha’i Faith in particular.

1. ALL religions start out small and grow slowly during the first two or more centuries. How many Jews became Christians in the first century?
2. Not everyone knows the Baha’i Faith exists. Most Baha’is are not out there teaching the Faith. They are doing other Baha’i activities like building up their communities.
3. It is not just a matter of having the internet because the internet is just as much a hindrance as it is an aid in spreading the Baha’i Faith, given there are as many or more anti-Baha’i websites as Baha’i websites.
4. People that do know about the Baha’i Faith do not really understand its theology and teachings. Most people are not going to take the time to examine it closely unless they are a true seeker. There are not many of those. Also, there is much confirmation bias about religion in general so most people make hasty generalizations about the Baha’i Faith.
5. The Baha’i Faith is very new and different from the older religions. It is not what people are accustomed to seeing in a religion, and having a new world order puts many people off because they do not understand it or think there is a need for one. I guess they don’t watch much TV news. Also, there is a lot of prejudice among Westerners against a religion that emerged out of Islam.
6. The biggest obstacle to the growth of the Baha’i Faith is the fact that about 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion. So there you have 84% of the world’s population, the vast majority of which are not even willing to consider the Baha’i Faith in order to determine if it is true or not. Then we have the rest of the world’s population who are agnostics or atheists or people who believe in God but dislike any religion.

All that said, Baha’u’llah wrote that some people are guided, meaning that others are not. Some of why that is the case is a mystery, but there are some indications in the Writings.

“Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day. All the divers kindreds of the earth have, likewise, yearned to attain it. No sooner, however, had the Day Star of His Revelation manifested itself in the heaven of God’s Will, than all, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to guide, were found dumbfounded and heedless.” Gleanings, p. 11

“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor. The allusions made in the Scriptures have been unfolded, and the signs recorded therein have been revealed, and the prophetic cry is continually being raised. And yet all, except such as God was pleased to guide, are bewildered in the drunkenness of their heedlessness!” Gleanings, p. 39

Baha’u’llah says that people who make efforts will be guided...

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings, pp. 266-267

In this passage it indicates that those who rebel against God will not be guided, which makes sense because God does not override free will to MAKE the rebellious believe in Him.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings, p. 145
 

siti

Well-Known Member
It is highly unlikely that a fifth of the world's population are wrong about Muhammad being a Messenger of God, but they are wrong about Muhammad being the last and final Messenger of God. It is highly unlikely that one third of the world population who believe in Jesus are wrong, although the Christians who believe that Jesus was God incarnate are wrong. It is highly likely that approximately 99.9% of the world population does not subscribe to Baha'i beliefs about Messengers of God generally or Baha'u'llah's status as a divine messenger specifically are wrong.
Oh I see! That's that one cleared up then!

The fact that not many people have thus far become Baha’is is easily explainable.
Yes - they don't believe the hype. And that's that one cleared up too.

Excellent - what's the next topic?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Excuse me... are you really trying to claim that because there are considerably more Muslims than (overt) atheists it must follow that there is more merit to Islaam than to atheism?
No, I did not say anything about merit. I just said that Islam is likely to be a true religion of God given how many people believe in Muhammad and devoutly follow the Qur'an... That ain't likely to be an accident. :oops:

Moreover, although nobody can ever prove God exists, it is likely that God exists, since it is unlikely that 93% of people in the world who believe in God are wrong about God. It just does not make sense that that many people could be wrong.

It has nothing to do with merit though. I have many friends who are agnostics and atheists and I highly respect their reasons for that decision. :)
 

siti

Well-Known Member
No, I did not say anything about merit. I just said that Islam is likely to be a true religion of God given how many people believe in Muhammad and devoutly follow the Qur'an... That ain't likely to be an accident.
Indeed not! Its much more likely to be a deliberate deception.

Moreover, although nobody can ever prove God exists, it is likely that God exists, since it is unlikely that 93% of people in the world who believe in God are wrong about God.
You do realize that the percentage of people who do not profess to believe in the existence of a God is increasing. Based on that logic, God is significantly less likely to exist now than he was even just a few decades ago. In the US - according to the number of people of who respond "no" to the question "do you believe in God?", he is ten times less likely to exist now than he was in the 1940s. Not only that but he is 5 times more likely to exist in Brazil than in the US and half as likely to exist in the Czech Republic. He is, however, certain to exist in both Ghana and Tunisia - possible migration options for those who are loathe to live in a Godless world perhaps?
 
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Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Of course Muhammad was a Messenger of God. 22% of the world population are not just following "some guy." :oops::rolleyes:
Muhammad is one of the greatest Messengers who ever lived, along with Jesus, the Bab and Baha'u'llah...
More later, gotta run to work, I mean bike. I do not like being late, I prefer being early... :)

Oh wait, I just remembered. ;) How do we know if someone is a Messenger of God, a Prophet?

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

"if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet."
I guess Muhammad must be a Prophet. :D
I believe the very first test to determine whether a man is a true prophet or not is if he teaches the divinity of Christ and Mankind's reliance upon Him for salvation.

If they do not teach that, then they cannot be a true prophet.

Considering that the path to damnation is "wide", I don't find the whole "argument from popularity" to be very reliable or convincing.

Not to mention its irony, because it would be impossible to use the argument because it woudl mean that the remaining 78% (the vast majority) does not consider him to be a true messenger.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
..."wherein one man ruleth over another to his own hurt" - and in no small measure, by the very process of imposing politically-motivated religious subjugation - sometimes on entire populations - by the sword and by deception...maybe it is time for "sentence" to be "executed speedily" on this "evil work". (Ecclesiastes 8:9,11)

How about:

Whenever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata,
And there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth ;
For the protection of the good, for the destruction of evil-doers,
For the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age.

Bhagavad Gita 4:7-8
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No, I did not say anything about merit. I just said that Islam is likely to be a true religion of God given how many people believe in Muhammad and devoutly follow the Qur'an... That ain't likely to be an accident. :oops:
Do you really think so?

It seems clear to me that it is, at best, indeed an accident.

Moreover, although nobody can ever prove God exists, it is likely that God exists, since it is unlikely that 93% of people in the world who believe in God are wrong about God. It just does not make sense that that many people could be wrong.

More like "it does not make sense that literal existence of God is a serious subject matter for some people", really.

It is poor theology and poorer attempt at religious practice. And that is really sort of self-evident when one considers it with a honest mind.

It has nothing to do with merit though. I have many friends who are agnostics and atheists and I highly respect their reasons for that decision. :)
That, I am sorry to say, does not come too clearly from your arguments.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Indeed! You would think that the less numerically significant sects would avoid the numbers game altogether - but no??? You have to wonder about the logic of following their logic.
It makes a sort of sense, albeit not a defensable one.

Popularity brings numbers, which bring a sense of security. Which is all that many people who think of themselves as religious are truly pursuing.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe the very first test to determine whether a man is a true prophet or not is if he teaches the divinity of Christ and Mankind's reliance upon Him for salvation.

If they do not teach that, then they cannot be a true prophet.

Considering that the path to damnation is "wide", I don't find the whole "argument from popularity" to be very reliable or convincing.

Not to mention its irony, because it would be impossible to use the argument because it woudl mean that the remaining 78% (the vast majority) does not consider him to be a true messenger.

So we should look towards the conclusions of the Nicea council presided over by the emperor Constantine 325 AD?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
We don't know anything for sure after 1400 years

One thing I do believe is that there are a few billionaires who decide what happens on earth. Control, power and money.
That is not a new thing, has been there for a long time.

Considering this, I would not be surprised if some very rich ones decide which religions grows how much and when
“If my sons did not want wars, there would be none.” Gutle Schnaper Rothschild
https://toolwielder.wordpress.com/2...here-would-be-none-gutle-schnaper-rothschild/
I don't know how long back they go, the "Rothschild". But this says something.

I think we have more power than we know. It up to us become the change we want to see...
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Indeed not! Its much more likely to be a deliberate deception.
Deception by whom, Muhammad? What would have been His motive?
You do realize that the percentage of people who do not profess to believe in the existence of a God is increasing. Based on that logic, God is significantly less likely to exist now than he was even just a few decades ago. In the US - according to the number of people of who respond "no" to the question "do you believe in God?", he is ten times less likely to exist now than he was in the 1940s. Not only that but he is 5 times more likely to exist in Brazil than in the US and half as likely to exist in the Czech Republic. He is, however, certain to exist in both Ghana and Tunisia - possible migration options for those who are loathe to live in a Godless world perhaps?
Only in the U.S. and Europe is atheism increasing, and that is because so many people are dropping out of Christianity. Worldwide, atheism and agnosticism are on the decline. I attribute that to the coming of Baha'u'llah who released the Holy Spirit into the world. It is finally starting to have an effect. :)

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists. (Statistics from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion)

So God is significantly more likely to exist now than He was a couple of decades ago. :D
 
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