How can you accept evolution and still have a spiritual reality, and/or a God faith

[Subduction Zone]

If the Bible does not--I believe it does--should science determine this or halachic law and practice, do you think?

If one cannot determine when a fetus is human how is it moral to force a woman to carry that fetus? The Bible has at least two verses that strongly indicate a fetus is not a human being.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm about to use Genesis to show that God is not against evolution. I'm just going to tell you what it says. You can take it as truth, lies, mythical or anything else you want. I'm simply going to point out what it says. If you don't like Genesis, disregard the rest of this post. That would really be the smart thing to do. But if you are open to learning, read on.

Gen 1:21,

And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
​

The word "kind" is the Greek word "genos" from which we get our word genus. According to the Bible, (I know it's considered at odds with science, just telling you what the book says about itself, belief is optional) evolution can in fact occur within a genus. Dogs can evolve into other dogs. Cats evolve into other cats, etc. What the Bible says can't happen is for a dog to evolve into a cat.

Genesis also talks about seed (sperm) and that may be worth some research in connection with evolution. I'll let you do that for yourself if you want.

The Bible doesn't not provide any kind of useful definition of "kind." I guess when stuff is ambiguous as that which you share here, you can make it say whatever you want. Do you know how many times I've asked creationists to actually define what they mean by the word "kind" only to never actually receive a coherent, usable answer? I've lost count.

By the way, the theory of evolution doesn't suggest that dogs evolved into cats either. Every animal produces offspring of it's own "kind." There was never a time when say, a cat gave birth to a dog. It's just not how it works. So I'm still not sure why God(s) couldn't have designed evolution.

Why we're trying to glean scientific information from an ancient book that is so far removed from modern scientific knowledge, I don't know.

 

[rrobs]

I have to take issue with this. Every man is entitled to reason for himself, surely? I'd have said it takes not humility but stupidity to set aside one's own ideas without seeing or feeling any reasons for doing so

You are right. I never meant to say that people are not entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. I'm a proponent of free will. If someone wants to pass on eternal life, they have every right to do so.

There is actually a very good reason to set aside one's own ideas. Should one decide to make the scriptures their sole reference for truth, I see no reason why they would be stupid because they set aside their old ideas for something that is light years ahead of any idea many can possibly conceive.

​

1Cor 1:25,

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.​

Surely you must see it will be useless to quote the bible at Ecco, when he does not believe in it? You need to persuade rather than lecture, don't you?

Excellent point. Thanks for the reminder. All I need to do is speak God's word. I am not concerned with results. Results are God's problem and He has it all figured out.

Isa 55:11,

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
​

It's timely of you to mention the futility of quoting verses to Ecco because just before reading your post I had decided to be done with him. Not that I don't like him and wouldn't talk to him about any number of topics, but our scripture discussion is done.

 

[rrobs]

The Bible doesn't not provide any kind of useful definition of "kind."

I do believe I said the word "kind" is the Greek word "genos" in the Septuagint. If you see that we get our word genus from genos, you have a very useful definition.

By the way, the theory of evolution doesn't suggest that dogs evolved into cats either. Every animal produces offspring of it's own "kind." There was never a time when say, a cat gave birth to a dog. It's just not how it works. So I'm still not sure why God(s) couldn't have designed evolution.

I admittedly simplified the situation. I understand the basic scientific theory (and remember, it is just a theory).

As I said, there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits evolution within a genus. Dogs have evolved into other dogs, cats have evolved into other cats. Each may evolve into a new species, but everything must stay within it's genus. There was never a time when a fish slowly became a bird as evolution theorizes. Fish have evolved to be sure, but they just evolved into other fish, not into some other genus.

It has to do with seed or sperm, which God mentions in the first chapter of Genesis. A cat seed (sperm) makes another cat, a god seed (sperm) makes another dog, etc.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do believe I said the word "kind" is the Greek word "genos" in the Septuagint. If you see that we get our word genus from genos, you have a very useful definition.

I admittedly simplified the situation. I understand the basic scientific theory (and remember, it is just a theory).

As I said, there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits evolution within a genus. Dogs have evolved into other dogs, cats have evolved into other cats. Each may evolve into a new species, but everything must stay within it's genus. There was never a time when a fish slowly became a bird as evolution theorizes. Fish have evolved to be sure, but they just evolved into other fish, not into some other genus.

It has to do with seed or sperm, which God mentions in the first chapter of Genesis. A cat seed (sperm) makes another cat, a god seed (sperm) makes another dog, etc.

Anyone that uses the phrase "just a theory" does not know what a theory is. In the sciences for an idea to have a theory it usually needs more evidence than one will see in a murder case. And when it comes to the theory of evolution there is more evidence for that than there has been for any murder case ever. If you have accepted that people were found guilty of murder then by the same standards you should accept the theory of evolution.

Also if you want to claim there is a limit to how far life can evolve the burden of proof is upon you. The fossil record is very well filled out and gets even more so every passing year. There is no indication of any such limit in that record. There does not appear to be such a limit when we look at our DNA. Where would one go to find such a limit?

 

[exchemist]

I do believe I said the word "kind" is the Greek word "genos" in the Septuagint. If you see that we get our word genus from genos, you have a very useful definition.

I admittedly simplified the situation. I understand the basic scientific theory (and remember, it is just a theory).

As I said, there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits evolution within a genus. Dogs have evolved into other dogs, cats have evolved into other cats. Each may evolve into a new species, but everything must stay within it's genus. There was never a time when a fish slowly became a bird as evolution theorizes. Fish have evolved to be sure, but they just evolved into other fish, not into some other genus.

It has to do with seed or sperm, which God mentions in the first chapter of Genesis. A cat seed (sperm) makes another cat, a god seed (sperm) makes another dog, etc.

As I explained in post 169, I do not see where in the bible evolution of one species from an older one is precluded from happening. I would be interested in understanding why you are so sure that it is.

 

[rrobs]

Anyone that uses the phrase "just a theory" does not know what a theory is. In the sciences for an idea to have a theory it usually needs more evidence than one will see in a murder case. And when it comes to the theory of evolution there is more evidence for that than there has been for any murder case ever. If you have accepted that people were found guilty of murder then by the same standards you should accept the theory of evolution.

I wonder how many falsely accused murderers are in prison? Evidence can be a slippery thing.

Theory - a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena. Merriam-Webster
​

A theory is not truth, nor does it claim to be so. It is simply a way to explain or model a set of observations. Theories change, truth doesn't.

Also if you want to claim there is a limit to how far life can evolve the burden of proof is upon you.

Why?

The fossil record is very well filled out and gets even more so every passing year. There is no indication of any such limit in that record. There does not appear to be such a limit when we look at our DNA. Where would one go to find such a limit?

The scriptures. Scientists, as intelligent as they may be, are not as smart as God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wonder how many falsely accused murderers are in prison? Evidence can be a slippery thing.

Theory - a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena. Merriam-Webster
​

A theory is not truth, nor does it claim to be so. It is simply a way to explain or model a set of observations. Theories change, truth doesn't.

Major fail. One does not go to a dictionary in this instance. You should have gone to a scientific source. And yes, there are some falsely accused murderers in prison. The standard for a scientific theory is higher than that. I can see that you avoided answering the question posed to you. That was not a proper way to deal with it.

Why?

The scriptures. Scientists, as intelligent as they may be, are not as smart as God.

The Bible does not even claim to be the "word of God" that is a blasphemous interpretation of some Christians. The clear and obvious times that the Bible is wrong makes those making that claim state that their God is incompetent. The Bible was written by man. No one has said that they are "smart as God". Using a strawman is not a proper argument either. In fact it is pretty close to bearing false witness against your neighbor since no one has made that claim. Can you debate the issues properly here?

 

[rrobs]

As I explained in post 169, I do not see where in the bible evolution of one species from an older one is precluded from happening. I would be interested in understanding why you are so sure that it is.

I said that according to the Bible evolution can indeed occur within a genus. That allows for the species within that genus to evolve as well as new species to arise within that genus.

According to Genesis, God created everything after it's kind (Greek genos, English genus). He further said each has seed (sperm) within itself. A cat seed (sperm) makes a cat. It will never make anything other than another cat. It might result in a bigger cat, a differently colored cat, a meaner cat, i.e. it may evolve, but it will always be another cat.

God created everything after it's kind (genus) and it will only produce something of the same kind (genus). Each genus has many species. There are many different species of cats, but they are all cats and therefore of the same genus. The species within any genus can evolve but the new or modified species will still be of the same kind (genus).

I hope that makes some sense to you.

 

[exchemist]

I said that according to the Bible evolution can indeed occur within a genus. That allows for the species within that genus to evolve as well as new species to arise within that genus.

According to Genesis, God created everything after it's kind (Greek genos, English genus). He further said each has seed (sperm) within itself. A cat seed (sperm) makes a cat. It will never make anything other than another cat. It might result in a bigger cat, a differently colored cat, a meaner cat, i.e. it may evolve, but it will always be another cat.

God created everything after it's kind (genus) and it will only produce something of the same kind (genus). Each genus has many species. There are many different species of cats, but they are all cats and therefore of the same genus. The species within any genus can evolve but the new or modified species will still be of the same kind (genus).

I hope that makes some sense to you.

It doesn't I'm afraid. Why do you think the bible precludes evolution from one genus or even phylum to another? I cannot see anything that contradicts this.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Just like you severely punished your child for putting his hand in the fire after you explained to him how bad it would hurt?

You could have tied your child to the bed so he wouldn't be able to discard your admonition. Maybe God should have taken a clue and tied us to the bed instead of setting us free. I guess in your mind at least that would have been more gracious.

Well apparently, if we don't do and believe what this God wants, it's going to lock us up in the basement forever and torture us. So, there's that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

By asking for specifics, I was hoping you'd have given scripture references. We are talking about scripture, aren't we?

Gen 1:31,

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
​

If words and 8th grade grammar have any meaning at all, the Bible says everything God made was good. You say He made a mistake. Who am I to believe?

What is this God's definition of "good?"

 

[rrobs]

Major fail.

Darn it!

Life in cyber-space is interesting. It's the only place where no matter what someone says, there will be somebody to say everything they say is wrong. I could say 50 things and somebody would be there to say all 50 things were wrong. Real life is simply not like that. Come on guy, I must have said at least one thing in my many posts that ring true! But, alas, maybe that doesn't appear to be the case. As I type, I'm afraid each word is yet another false premise. What is one to do?

 

[rrobs]

Well apparently, if we don't do and believe what this God wants, it's going to lock us up in the basement forever and torture us. So, there's that.

You have the church tradition right, but I'd keep searching the scriptures for the right answer if you are really interested in the truth.

 

[Segev Moran]

You mean to say "I believe in Evolution", and "I do not believe in the existence of God" if I understand correctly. Or do you mean Evolution exists and God exists, but they are totally separated from each other, so that "Evolution has got nothing to do with God existence"?

The later with a slight change
It is probable that evolution is true (it is not a question of exists or not, evolution is not a thing, its a description).
As for the god question, i have no idea if it really exists or not.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You have the church tradition right, but I'd keep searching the scriptures for the right answer if you are really interested in the truth.

That's what I took away from it. I'm done.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do believe I said the word "kind" is the Greek word "genos" in the Septuagint. If you see that we get our word genus from genos, you have a very useful definition.

And yet creationists never manage to explain or use it in any meaningful or helpful way.

I admittedly simplified the situation. I understand the basic scientific theory (and remember, it is just a theory).

It's not "just a theory." It's a scientific theory.
"Just a Theory": 7 Misused Science Words

As I said, there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits evolution within a genus. Dogs have evolved into other dogs, cats have evolved into other cats. Each may evolve into a new species, but everything must stay within it's genus. There was never a time when a fish slowly became a bird as evolution theorizes. Fish have evolved to be sure, but they just evolved into other fish, not into some other genus.

Fish evolved into amphibians, then reptiles then birds and mammals (that is extremely simplified though).

Evidence from the sciences contradicts the Bible then. I guess you reconcile that by just ignoring all the evidence?

It has to do with seed or sperm, which God mentions in the first chapter of Genesis. A cat seed (sperm) makes another cat, a god seed (sperm) makes another dog, etc.

Are you under the impression that evolution dictates that a cat gave birth to a dog?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I said that according to the Bible evolution can indeed occur within a genus. That allows for the species within that genus to evolve as well as new species to arise within that genus.

According to Genesis, God created everything after it's kind (Greek genos, English genus). He further said each has seed (sperm) within itself. A cat seed (sperm) makes a cat. It will never make anything other than another cat. It might result in a bigger cat, a differently colored cat, a meaner cat, i.e. it may evolve, but it will always be another cat.

God created everything after it's kind (genus) and it will only produce something of the same kind (genus). Each genus has many species. There are many different species of cats, but they are all cats and therefore of the same genus. The species within any genus can evolve but the new or modified species will still be of the same kind (genus).

I hope that makes some sense to you.

Can you demonstrate any of this?

 

[rrobs]

What is this God's definition of "good?"

Excellent question!

The Bible needs to be understood within the framework of the time and culture in which it was written. Genesis was written to a much different culture than our own and at a time that was much different that our own. It is incumbent upon us to learn what popped in the mind of the Jew of 6,000 years ago. Suffioce it to say, our ideas of good and evil are not the same as theirs.

The Hebrew word for good is tov. It has little to do with morality which is how we in the modern West think of the word good. The upshot of the the word tov could be thought of as something that is functional or something that works right. When your car runs right it is tov. It works as it was designed to work.

Evil is the Hebrew word ra. Ra means something that is dysfunctional or that doesn't work in such a way as to make life work in a beneficial way. When your car has problems it is ra or evil because it does not function in such a way that it takes you from your house to your workplace or grocery story.

When God said everything He created was good He simply meant that the universe worked correctly. When Adam sinned (by his God given free will. It wasn't God's idea for Adam to disobey) evil came on the scene. In other words, the world no longer worked they way it was originally designed. It, along with people, became dysfunctional. I'd say dysfunctional is an accurate way to describe the current state of world affairs.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Excellent question!

The Bible needs to be understood within the framework of the time and culture in which it was written. Genesis was written to a much different culture than our own and at a time that was much different that our own. It is incumbent upon us to learn what popped in the mind of the Jew of 6,000 years ago. Suffioce it to say, our ideas of good and evil are not the same as theirs.

The Hebrew word for good is tov. It has little to do with morality which is how we in the modern West think of the word good. The upshot of the the word tov could be thought of as something that is functional or something that works right. When your car runs right it is tov. It works as it was designed to work.

Evil is the Hebrew word ra. Ra means something that is dysfunctional or that doesn't work in such a way as to make life work in a beneficial way. When your car has problems it is ra or evil because it does not function in such a way that it takes you from your house to your workplace or grocery story.

When God said everything He created was good He simply meant that the universe worked correctly. When Adam sinned (by his God given free will. It wasn't God's idea for Adam to disobey) evil came on the scene. In other words, the world no longer worked they way it was originally designed. It, along with people, became dysfunctional. I'd say dysfunctional is an accurate way to describe the current state of world affairs.

Of course the morality of people who lived thousands of years ago was different from our current version of morality. Which makes it pretty obvious to me that morality and religion are man-made and not inspired by any deities.