Contradictions Challenge

[Deeje]

In other words, God was perfectly okay with the vile immoral type of slavery that was practiced in the US for hundreds of years. Now that is NOT a God worthy of my worship... and if you are a moral person, this god shouldn't be worthy of your worship either.

In a time when slavery was part of everyday life in a world with no social security, I believe that you are mistaken. You are shaking your fist at the wrong person.

If slaves were given food and clothing and shelter and their alternative was starvation, homelessness and death, don't you think it was reasonable to expect that they would do what was expected of them? If they did their job, there were no beatings.
No one is condoning slavery, but in those times, it served a purpose.

Israelites were not allowed by law to mistreat their slaves, regardless of whether they were fellow believers or not. You cannot transfer today's sensibilities onto yesterday's lifestyle. Nor can you compare it to the kind of slavery practiced in the southern states of America by so called "Christians".

In my mother's young days in England, kids left school at 14 and went to work. They were often kicked out of home because there was no room or money to feed younger siblings. There were boarding houses where these young people lived with strict rules, which if they were violated, meant eviction with nowhere to go. Who today would expect that kind of life for a 14 year old?

God did not invent slavery...he merely accommodated it by giving his people laws to make it as tolerable as possible.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

OK....now I get it. I didn't read past this statement. No point in trying to adjust your thinking because nothing short of a physical encounter will suffice. Your mind is set....and that is your choice.

That "inter-subjectively verifiable event that proved His existence beyond an ability to logically question" will have to suffice....but when it happens, what do you expect the outcome to be?

If God deliberately stepped out of the picture to allow humans to prove to themselves what happens without him, and he only invites people of faith to become participants in his future plans for planet earth once he has cleansed it of all wickedness, where does that leave people who have no faith? (1John 2:17)

If all we have is the Bible as God's only instruction manual for the human race, and we ignore it because we have no faith in it, or its author....where does that leave those who demand absolute proof? Disappointed? Without hope or direction? Lost?

The thing is, people of faith need no proof. God proves himself to us in ways that unbelievers apparently cannot imagine. We don't have this confidence based on wishful thinking....we know our God and he knows us. It's the difference between being spiritually "alive" and spiritually "dead". "Dead" people see nothing and feel nothing.

We believe that the "event" you need to "see" is not too far away, based on what the Bible says. It's not a case of "if" for us...but "when". I guess we will all just have to wait and see.....?

Hahaha... you TOO? With the "I didn't read past..." Boy... some Christians are getting pretty uncomfortable in here.

So you didn't get to the best part of my post, at the very end. Actually, if I had to guess, you DID read my last point/question, and it was just too awkward for you to consider answering - I mean, you already dodged it once before in this thread - so instead you saw an easy way out and took it. My guess is also that @Hockeycowboy also read my whole post, but also took the easy way out due to discomfort - either of you is completely free to refute me... though I can hear you formulating another "out" now - "It's beneath me to respond", or some such. If I'm right - good luck with that!.

Anyway... I'll post my questions again, just for kicks:

Would JESUS want you to turn around and rob the people you just beat into the ground? Would JESUS want you to beat people into the ground in the first place?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Seeing you have no knowledge about what the Bible will say, on the matter about having bondmen's and bondmaidens, which are slaves.

In the Bible book of Leviticus 25:10--"And you shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants there of, it shall be a jubile unto you, and you shall return every man unto his family"

Therefore if a man or woman be slave, in the year of the jubile they are to be returned unto their family.

Verse 13--"In the year of this jubile, you shall return every man unto his possession"
There are no discrepancies of who every man is. So it could be taken as Slaves and those of Israel. Are to be returned back to their family in the 7th year of the jubile.

Man or woman that be a slave, are to be returned unto their family with all their possession in the year of the jubile to their family.

But there is no where that slaves are beaten. As you want to claim they are.

Again, are you blatantly lying or are you just ignorant about what the bible actually says?

Exodus 21:20-21 English Standard Version (ESV)
20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

Yeah, right... NOWHERE does it talk about how you can beat your slaves to the verge of death.

Leviticus 25:44-46 New International Version (NIV)
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Note how it says SLAVES FOR LIFE. None of that jubile for the poor slaves that come from the nations around you.

So what is it? Were you unaware that these quotes are in your bible or are you just blatantly lying about it?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I actually wanted to reply to a few of your points also. It's not like me to simply not respond to questions and points others reply to me with - I just don't feel right about it. Anyway...

That "inter-subjectively verifiable event that proved His existence beyond an ability to logically question" will have to suffice....but when it happens, what do you expect the outcome to be?

First off, I don't expect there to be such an outcome. But if it DID happen, then I'd simply say "Do what you will, I know now I was wrong... but you get why I didn't believe in you, right? I mean COME ON..."

If God deliberately stepped out of the picture to allow humans to prove to themselves what happens without him, and he only invites people of faith to become participants in his future plans for planet earth once he has cleansed it of all wickedness, where does that leave people who have no faith? (1John 2:17)

It leaves me without faith here... or it leaves me without faith wherever God forces me to go. And if the punishment is as bad as I've heard, it leaves me with even less reason to worship than before.

If all we have is the Bible as God's only instruction manual for the human race, and we ignore it because we have no faith in it, or its author....where does that leave those who demand absolute proof? Disappointed? Without hope or direction? Lost?

I can tell you right now I am exactly none of those things. In fact:

• With my particular disposition, I almost never experience disappointment in much of anything. The situation literally has to be HUGE for me to even have expectations to get disappointed about in the first place. I'm not even exaggerating.
• And hope? My disposition is also such that I hold an understanding that not much personal "strife" that goes on in my life is anywhere near the worst others have suffered - and so I have this tolerance level that has me not even considering that I am suffering until conditions get really, really bad. Where others may fall like flies around me as the going gets "tough", you can see me still walking ahead asking "Tough? What's that?" So I almost always maintain a positive (or at the very least, neutral) outlook on things.
• Direction? Hmm... that's tough. I have to admit I sort of lack this in some areas I suppose. I strive for certain things - make sure my family members get what they need sustenance-wise, emotionally and mentally, I'm always after a greater base of knowledge, keep my strength/fitness up... but at the same time I also realize that a lot of "life goals" that most other people have aren't really that important. I'm not concerned with amassing wealth, not too concerned about achieving some end point on a "career path", not intent on acquiring anything material. Don't even care if I am "well-traveled" or "culturally significant."

The thing is, people of faith need no proof. God proves himself to us in ways that unbelievers apparently cannot imagine. We don't have this confidence based on wishful thinking....we know our God and he knows us. It's the difference between being spiritually "alive" and spiritually "dead". "Dead" people see nothing and feel nothing.

I don't feel I have "wishful thinking" - I believe that's what you and others like you have. I know what I know... and don't know what I don't know. I'm free to admit/own-up to both. Do you find this true of yourself?

We believe that the "event" you need to "see" is not too far away, based on what the Bible says. It's not a case of "if" for us...but "when". I guess we will all just have to wait and see.....?

Good luck with that - sounds like you're really happy about it. Me? I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[QuestioningMind]

In a time when slavery was part of everyday life in a world with no social security, I believe that you are mistaken. You are shaking your fist at the wrong person.

If slaves were given food and clothing and shelter and their alternative was starvation, homelessness and death, don't you think it was reasonable to expect that they would do what was expected of them? If they did their job, there were no beatings.
No one is condoning slavery, but in those times, it served a purpose.

Israelites were not allowed by law to mistreat their slaves, regardless of whether they were fellow believers or not. You cannot transfer today's sensibilities onto yesterday's lifestyle. Nor can you compare it to the kind of slavery practiced in the southern states of America by so called "Christians".

In my mother's young days in England, kids left school at 14 and went to work. They were often kicked out of home because there was no room or money to feed younger siblings. There were boarding houses where these young people lived with strict rules, which if they were violated, meant eviction with nowhere to go. Who today would expect that kind of life for a 14 year old?

God did not invent slavery...he merely accommodated it by giving his people laws to make it as tolerable as possible.

I've heard you make this same pathetic argument in an attempt to excuse this vile immorality before. It's the exact same argument that Southern slave owners used to make. "We feed, clothe , and house them. They're SO much better off under our care. We're doing them a FAVOR. It serves a vital PURPOSE."

'Israelites were not allowed by law to mistreat their slaves, regardless of whether they were fellow believers or not.'

Exodus 21:20-21 New International Version (NIV)
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Okay, now you're blatantly lying. I've pointed out the above quote to you before, so you can't pretend as if you weren't aware of it. Pathetic that you would claim that someone allowed to beat a person to the verge of death isn't mistreating them. You have a rather sick definition of morality.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It's the exact same argument that Southern slave owners used to make. "We feed, clothe , and house them. They're SO much better off under our care. We're doing them a FAVOR. It serves a vital PURPOSE."

This point can't be emphasized enough. We have extensive experience with human nature. Saying that people who hold the opinion/belief that they literally "own" other people aren't going to mistreat those others is absolutely ludicrous.

@Deeje - the proof IN THE BIBLE ITSELF is that beatings TO DEATH happened frequently enough that the writers of The Bible felt the need to address it in a religiously themed text. How does this not speak for itself?

 

[Faithofchristian]

YOU need to re-read it again.

Exodus 9:3 CEB
the Lord will send a very deadly disease on your livestock in the field: on horses, donkeys, camels, cattle, and flocks.

Exodus 9:3 JUB
behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy livestock which are in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the cows, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous pestilence.

Exodus 9:3 TLB
the power of God will send a deadly plague to destroy your cattle, horses, donkeys, camels, flocks, and herds.

Exodus 9:3 NASB
behold, the hand of the Lord will come with a very severe pestilence on your livestock which are in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the herds, and on the flocks.​

Exodus 9:3 NLT
the hand of the Lord will strike all your livestock—your horses, donkeys, camels, cattle, sheep, and goats—with a deadly plague.​

.

​

For one thing, I could careless what all those other books will say

As I only go by the KJV 1611.

Maybe you should go back and re-read it again.
There is no where in Exodus 9:3 that says God killed or destroyed all the horses of Egypt.

Look Exodus 9:3--"Behold, the hand of the Lord is upon your cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camel's, upon the open, and upon the sheep, there shall be a very grievous murrain"

Now where in the Verse above, does it say, that God killed all the horses of Egypt ?

If you take the word ( grievous ) and break it down to get to the root of what is being said ( grievous ) means ( severe pestilence)
Which is a Plague.

Now for the word ( Murrain ) which means
A Command, power, promise, purpose, plague.

As it is not all the horses of Egypt face the server pestilence. Of the plague.

As you can see in Exodus 14:9.

There is no where in Exodus 9:3 that say all the horses of Egypt as having the server pestilence, Plague.

All it said, (upon the horses) So you want to take this as meaning all the horses in Egypt.
But in Exodus 9:3, that it couldn't possibly mean all the horses, as we find ( all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh in 14:9)

Back in Exodus 9:3, the horses here are those of the Egyptian people and not of Pharaoh's army of Egypt. Those things of Pharaoh comes much later.
God is striking those animals around Egypt first, then those things of Pharaoh comes next.
So you would have to prove in Exodus 9:3 where it's written that all the horses of Egypt died from the severe pestilence,Plague ?

All it says is ( upon the horses) and nothing about ( all the horses of Egypt) As you wish it did.

But I already know, it does fit into your logic of things, but then you haven't proved a thing, only that your taking things out of context.Thats all

 

[Faithofchristian]

Again, are you blatantly lying or are you just ignorant about what the bible actually says?

Exodus 21:20-21 English Standard Version (ESV)
20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

Yeah, right... NOWHERE does it talk about how you can beat your slaves to the verge of death.

Leviticus 25:44-46 New International Version (NIV)
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Note how it says SLAVES FOR LIFE. None of that jubile for the poor slaves that come from the nations around you.

So what is it? Were you unaware that these quotes are in your bible or are you just blatantly lying about it?

Well it's evidence that you have no knowledge or understanding about the bible.
Now show as to where in the new testament scriptures, where people are to make slaves of other people.

What you Quoted is the old testament scriptures, But after Christ Jesus has come, we are now under the new testament scriptures and not the old testament scriptures.of how things were done.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Well it's evidence that you have no knowledge or understanding about the bible.
Now show as to where in the new testament scriptures, where people are to make slaves of other people.

What you Quoted is the old testament scriptures, But after Christ Jesus has come, we are now under the new testament scriptures and not the old testament scriptures.of how things were done.

Which is you saying it was okay for people to hold slaves in the past, and that it was okay for The Bible (and therefore God - because it is His word right?) to have basically condoned slavery in the past. It basically served as an advertisement for slavery back in that time when you think about it.

I'm also not sure how this isn't a cut-and-dry example of how God had to end up admitting He was wrong and CHANGED HIS MIND. Meaning that "morality" also changed at that point. So much for morality being "objective," right? I mean... if God can be wrong about it, and then define it and redefine it however He wants, it means it is SUBJECT to His whims.

 

[Deeje]

Hahaha... you TOO? With the "I didn't read past..." Boy... some Christians are getting pretty uncomfortable in here.

No we just understand when it's time to "shake the dust off our feet". You don't listen anyway. What is the point?

So you didn't get to the best part of my post, at the very end. Actually, if I had to guess, you DID read my last point/question, and it was just too awkward for you to consider answering - I mean, you already dodged it once before in this thread - so instead you saw an easy way out and took it. My guess is also that @Hockeycowboy also read my whole post, but also took the easy way out due to discomfort - either of you is completely free to refute me... though I can hear you formulating another "out" now - "It's beneath me to respond", or some such. If I'm right - good luck with that!.

Oh please....I think you have a very exaggerated view of your own opinion....

Anyway... I'll post my questions again, just for kicks:

Would JESUS want you to turn around and rob the people you just beat into the ground? Would JESUS want you to beat people into the ground in the first place?

And this was worth repeating....again?

Here is exactly what I mean about your own laxity in reading our responses to you. This has been answered....go back and see what was said about Jesus and his teachings. Who wants to talk to people who have their fingers in their ears whistling Dixie....? Seriously.

This point can't be emphasized enough. We have extensive experience with human nature. Saying that people who hold the opinion/belief that they literally "own" other people aren't going to mistreat those others is absolutely ludicrous.

@Deeje - the proof IN THE BIBLE ITSELF is that beatings TO DEATH happened frequently enough that the writers of The Bible felt the need to address it in a religiously themed text. How does this not speak for itself?

Again, you missed the point. This is not what God required, but what individuals did in disobeying God's law. Such ones were themselves punished. Read the Bible and you will see that it is full of good examples and bad ones....all are lessons in outcomes or consequences for obedience or disobedience. Each contribute to an historic record that will serve mankind for the rest of forever.

What speaks for itself, is some people's inability to take in information that will alter a mind set in concrete. If you are happy with what you believe, so be it.....but what do hope to achieve by asserting that the Creator is somehow wrong and you are right? Who are you really trying to convince?

If God doesn't exist, then humans have nothing to worry about except from other humans....I would find that a more worrying prospect, personally.

At least God holds out some reward for enduring all this nonsense.
What do you have to look forward to?

We will all see soon enough I suppose.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Well it's evidence that you have no knowledge or understanding about the bible.
Now show as to where in the new testament scriptures, where people are to make slaves of other people.

What you Quoted is the old testament scriptures, But after Christ Jesus has come, we are now under the new testament scriptures and not the old testament scriptures.of how things were done.

Who cares? It doesn't change the fact that according to your bible your God in the OT was an immoral thug who condoned owning other people as property. And while Jesus of the NT never specifically condones slavery, he also makes no effort whatsoever to tell people that they should NOT own slaves, which suggests that he was a bit of an immoral thug as well.

 

[Deeje]

I've heard you make this same pathetic argument in an attempt to excuse this vile immorality before. It's the exact same argument that Southern slave owners used to make. "We feed, clothe , and house them. They're SO much better off under our care. We're doing them a FAVOR. It serves a vital PURPOSE."

'Israelites were not allowed by law to mistreat their slaves, regardless of whether they were fellow believers or not.'

Exodus 21:20-21 New International Version (NIV)
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Okay, now you're blatantly lying. I've pointed out the above quote to you before, so you can't pretend as if you weren't aware of it. Pathetic that you would claim that someone allowed to beat a person to the verge of death isn't mistreating them. You have a rather sick definition of morality.

Oh dear.....what a horrible and immoral person God must be in your mind. But you don't really know him or anything about him....all you see are the negative things that justify your own viewpoint. If you hate God, I think he already knows it. He doesn't force people to love him or to obey him....he gave you the freedom to make your own choices. You seem to despise God for doing that.

If God doesn't measure up to your view of what he should be, you don't consider what reasonable explanation there might be...you automatically assume that he is wrong. I can assure you, he never is. It is your misinterpretation of his laws and actions that is flawed.

I believe that one of the worst things humans did was to stop parents from giving their children a well deserved smack. Look at the kids nowadays and tell me how these selfish little brats are a pleasure to be around? No one is condoning violence....but a good open handed smack on the backside never damaged anything but their pride. Like the law of gravity, if you defy it, there is a painful and immediate result If you treat it with disrespect.

God created the law of gravity just like he created all his other laws....disobeying them should be painful....it is a good deterrent.

 

[blü 2]

I think that you're just putting two different spins on the same thing. Mark doesn't begin with Jesus' birth but that doesn't imply that Mark intended to establish some other view.

Some other view than what? in the opinion of the author of Mark there was nothing relevant or special about Jesus' birth. The first thing worth reporting is his adoption by God on his baptism - in accordance with Jewish precedent.

To me, the conclusion you've drawn of the irreconcilable is of a religious nature. One Hebrew and one Greek. I wonder, is there some continuation of that theme or is that pretty much it?

Yes, I spelt out for you that the adoption of Jesus in Mark is within Jewish tradition, whereas insemination by God is within Greek tradition. Yes, the point is religious, how do you get to be Son of God? In Mark, by adoption (Jewish tradition), and in Luke / Matthew by divine insemination (Greek tradition).

No, they're not the same thing, and you've made no case (beyond a figurative wave of the hand) that they are.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Who cares? It doesn't change the fact that according to your bible your God in the OT was an immoral thug who condoned owning other people as property. And while Jesus of the NT never specifically condones slavery, he also makes no effort whatsoever to tell people that they should NOT own slaves, which suggests that he was a bit of an immoral thug as well.

Oh really, Did not Jesus teach to love your fellow man, as in Love your neighbour as yourself.
So actually Jesus was against slavery.

Otherwise explain exactly how can someone love their fellow man as their self.but yet have their fellow man as their slave ?

You see people like yourself is always saying things and doing things, that have no idea or clue about anything.

So if your so bothered about slavery
as your showing yourself to be,
then why are you not complaining about those Muslim countries that still have African's as slaves in to days world.

 

[blü 2]

I think that you're just putting two different spins on the same thing. Mark doesn't begin with Jesus' birth but that doesn't imply that Mark intended to establish some other view.

Some other view than what? in the opinion of the author of Mark there was nothing relevant or special about Jesus' birth. The first thing worth reporting is his adoption by God on his baptism - in accordance with Jewish precedent.

To me, the conclusion you've drawn of the irreconcilable is of a religious nature. One Hebrew and one Greek. I wonder, is there some continuation of that theme or is that pretty much it?

Yes, I spelt out for you that the adoption of Jesus in Mark is within Jewish tradition, whereas insemination by God is within Greek tradition. Yes, the point is religious, how do you get to be Son of God? ─ in Mark, by adoption (Jewish tradition), and in Luke / Matthew by divine insemination (Greek tradition).

No, they're not the same thing. The Luke method leads to all the silliness of Jesus' Y chromosome and the Mark method doesn't.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I see that he still has not dealt with the ten year long pregnancy of Mary according to the author of Luke.

 

[Earthling]

Some other view than what? in the opinion of the author of Mark there was nothing relevant or special about Jesus' birth. The first thing worth reporting is his adoption by God on his baptism - in accordance with Jewish precedent.
Yes, I spelt out for you that the adoption of Jesus in Mark is within Jewish tradition, whereas insemination by God is within Greek tradition. Yes, the point is religious, how do you get to be Son of God? In Mark, by adoption (Jewish tradition), and in Luke / Matthew by divine insemination (Greek tradition).

No, they're not the same thing, and you've made no case (beyond a figurative wave of the hand) that they are.

It doesn't make any sense to me. It's like being stopped on a busy street by someone who whispers ominously to you that "The smokey silver top hat of the suburban field mice has slowly dissipated to the 57th quadrant of the institution of the sublime." And then winks at you.

What could you possibly say to something like that?

 

[Deeje]

Hmmm...I seem to have missed this in amongst it all.....

First off, I don't expect there to be such an outcome. But if it DID happen, then I'd simply say "Do what you will, I know now I was wrong... but you get why I didn't believe in you, right? I mean COME ON..."

Oh, I think God completely "gets" why people don't believe in him...and that is the point. He allows us the freedom to choose what is important to us as individuals. "Faith is not the possession of all people"...it says in the Bible. Do you ever wonder why?

Why would God seemingly hide himself from so many?...and reveal himself to relatively few? The reason might surprise you. But since you don't believe in him anyway, I won't bore you with the details.

It leaves me without faith here... or it leaves me without faith wherever God forces me to go. And if the punishment is as bad as I've heard, it leaves me with even less reason to worship than before.

What "punishment" have you heard about? As far as the Bible is concerned, there are only two outcomes that God ever offered....Life or death. Either we merit everlasting life or everlasting death.....we choose.....there is nothing else.

With my particular disposition......

I have that sort of disposition too. But it still allows me to feel for those who are suffering and want reasons for why a God of love would allow such a world to exist.

Direction? Hmm... that's tough. I have to admit I sort of lack this in some areas I suppose. I strive for certain things - make sure my family members get what they need sustenance-wise, emotionally and mentally, I'm always after a greater base of knowledge, keep my strength/fitness up... but at the same time I also realize that a lot of "life goals" that most other people have aren't really that important. I'm not concerned with amassing wealth, not too concerned about achieving some end point on a "career path", not intent on acquiring anything material. Don't even care if I am "well-traveled" or "culturally significant."

Direction is something we either choose for ourselves, or we just allow others to steer us....to go with the flow. Some people can't take direction, whilst others need it.
There are 'leaders' and 'followers' in this world....we just have to be certain that the leader we choose is going in the right direction, or if we are the leader, then we have a responsibility to those who follow us.

If I was concerned about what other people thought, I would not have chosen to become a JW.
I care more about what God thinks of me than other people. I also know what makes complete sense when looking at the big picture instead of concentrating on what appear to be anomalies.

I don't feel I have "wishful thinking" - I believe that's what you and others like you have. I know what I know... and don't know what I don't know. I'm free to admit/own-up to both. Do you find this true of yourself?

Actually, I spent the first third of my life wondering about a great many things....then I discovered that the Bible actually gives us the answers to all the hard questions. So I spent the next two thirds of my life studying it. In that time I discovered who God is and what his intentions are. I also discovered that there are reasons for everything that happen which are not apparent to those who do not have the gift of God's spirit. There is no point in trying to explain it...it has to be experienced. (John 6:44) If God "draws" you, he is almost irresistible. I say "almost" because we can still exercise our free will.
If I am wrong I will admit it.....but you have to prove it to me better than God does.

Good luck with that - sounds like you're really happy about it. Me? I'll believe it when I see it.

I think all the unbelievers will believe then....but too late. Think about the example that Jesus himself used by referring back to the days of Noah. There is the scenario. Noah spent decades building a structure that would preserve himself, his family and animal kinds in safety, whilst onlookers disbelieved his message and ridiculed his efforts. How many "believed" once the water was swirling around their knees? (Matthew 24:37-39)

Like an anonymous commentator once said about WW1 (I think)....."there are no atheists in the foxholes". There will be no unbelievers at the end....

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hmmm...I seem to have missed this in amongst it all.....



Oh, I think God completely "gets" why people don't believe in him...and that is the point. He allows us the freedom to choose what is important to us as individuals. "Faith is not the possession of all people"...it says in the Bible. Do you ever wonder why?

Why would God seemingly hide himself from so many?...and reveal himself to relatively few? The reason might surprise you. But since you don't believe in him anyway, I won't bore you with the details.




What "punishment" have you heard about? As far as the Bible is concerned, there are only two outcomes that God ever offered....Life or death. Either we merit everlasting life or everlasting death.....we choose.....there is nothing else.



I have that sort of disposition too. But it still allows me to feel for those who are suffering and want reasons for why a God of love would allow such a world to exist.



Direction is something we either choose for ourselves, or we just allow others to steer us....to go with the flow. Some people can't take direction, whilst others need it.
There are 'leaders' and 'followers' in this world....we just have to be certain that the leader we choose is going in the right direction, or if we are the leader, then we have a responsibility to those who follow us.

If I was concerned about what other people thought, I would not have chosen to become a JW.
I care more about what God thinks of me than other people. I also know what makes complete sense when looking at the big picture instead of concentrating on what appear to be anomalies.



Actually, I spent the first third of my life wondering about a great many things....then I discovered that the Bible actually gives us the answers to all the hard questions. So I spent the next two thirds of my life studying it. In that time I discovered who God is and what his intentions are. I also discovered that there are reasons for everything that happen which are not apparent to those who do not have the gift of God's spirit. There is no point in trying to explain it...it has to be experienced. (John 6:44) If God "draws" you, he is almost irresistible. I say "almost" because we can still exercise our free will.
If I am wrong I will admit it.....but you have to prove it to me.



I think all the unbelievers will believe then....but too late. Think about the example that Jesus himself used by referring back to the days of Noah. There is the scenario. Noah spent decades building a structure that would preserve himself, his family and animal kinds in safety, whilst onlookers disbelieved his message and ridiculed his efforts. How many "believed" once the water was swirling around their knees? (Matthew 24:37-39)

Like an anonymous commentator once said about WW1 (I think)....."there are no atheists in the foxholes". There will be no unbelievers at the end....

We have gone over your love affair with the King James Version before. It is in outdated English that you do not understand. More modern translations are both more accurate and in English that you can understand. If you can't refute the modern translations then you can't refute the KJV either since they both say the same thing. They merely use English of different eras.

 

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It doesn't make any sense to me.

I take that for an honest answer.

Have a nice day.