Why Does God Permit Evil?

[dfnj]

You said:

Yet you do not provide any scriptures, nor verses for which one can determine which verses you had in mind, nor can verify if your interpretation holds any validity, etc.
Therefore, it seems the best I can do is thank you for sharing your philosophy.

Dumb thread.

 

[Thanda]

You asked:
If it is neither good nor evil and God is good then whatever God creates from it must be good no? And if what God only creates good then from where does the evil comes? Where do the evil desires of human beings come from? Who gave it to them?

You said:
Evil is doing that which is against the will of God.

Evil is anything that goes contrary to God, or his will. Therefore, when intelligent creation made decisions to go against God - enter evil.
The reason being, if God always existed, and as the Bible says of him, he is Holy - that is - pure to the superlative degree - nothing can tarnish, nor corrupt him. Then evil did not exist. Just as there is no darkness with him - for he is light. (If you take away light, there is darkness).
So to go in the opposite direction of good, is evil or bad.
Agreed?

No comment on the last paragraph.

Agreed, but you have not answered where the desire for evil comes from. God has no desire for evil, so where did man get his? Who gave to him the desire to rebel against God and his teachings? For it is place that notwithstanding the power to choose man could never commit evil unless he first had the desire to do so. The question then is from whom came this desire?

 

[nPeace]

Agreed, but you have not answered where the desire for evil comes from. God has no desire for evil, so where did man get his? Who gave to him the desire to rebel against God and his teachings? For it is place that notwithstanding the power to choose man could never commit evil unless he first had the desire to do so. The question then is from whom came this desire?

A desire to rebel?
If you are eating a Popsicle, or Ice pop, and rather than suck it, you decide to bite it. Why do you do that?
Maybe you think it's melting too quickly, and you want all of it to end up in your stomach, and not on the ground.
Whatever the reason, it a choice you make based on the knowledge you have in your mind.

Every decision one makes does not come from God, does it?
Did the decision to make and use the atom bomb come from God? No it didn't.
The choices we make come from our ability to think, formulate, and act on our thoughts and ideas.

 

[columbus]

I was wondering why you didn't respond to my response though. I spent an entire morning writing it, along with the conclusion.

My apologies. I misremembered, thinking it was in the "Why don't you believe in god?" thread. But I could see that you invested effort into it.

But frankly, it wasn't too memorable. It looks more aimed at the KenS. You ignored my point, and repeated a lot of things I have already heard a zillion times.

Let me repeat my point. The father in the story shows no sign of existing, much less caring, much less communicating with any of my siblings.
When I look around at the world, that's exactly what I see. No God, except a character that humans claim to know and who agrees with them about whatever they think is important. A fictional character, that humans create in their own image and for their own purposes.
Tom

 

[nPeace]

My apologies. I misremembered, thinking it was in the "Why don't you believe in god?" thread. But I could see that you invested effort into it.

But frankly, it wasn't too memorable. It looks more aimed at the KenS. You ignored my point, and repeated a lot of things I have already heard a zillion times.

Let me repeat my point. The father in the story shows no sign of existing, much less caring, much less communicating with any of my siblings.
When I look around at the world, that's exactly what I see. No God, except a character that humans claim to know and who agrees with them about whatever they think is important. A fictional character, that humans create in their own image and for their own purposes.
Tom

In that case, it seems like the Janes and the Jacks outnumber the Toms in how they see their father.
Even if there were more Toms, it would still be a case of something is wrong with the way some of the children are seeking.

This doesn't interfere with the father's desire for a united family, even if it excludes Toms, and include Jacks and Janes.

 

[columbus]

In that case, it seems like the Janes and the Jacks outnumber the Toms in how they see their father.

Doesn't mean that they are any better informed than overwhelming majority who believed that Creation was a lumpy plane, solidly fixed, with the sun revolving around it.

You know, like the authors of Scripture.
Tom

 

[nPeace]

Doesn't mean that they are any better informed than overwhelming majority who believed that Creation was a lumpy plane, solidly fixed, with the sun revolving around it.

You know, like the authors of Scripture.
Tom

You mean like Tom believes.
I guess we'll see.

 

[Milton Platt]

Isaiah 48:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

First of all, as you can see it's to purify people. Make them better. Suffering helps people grow and become better people.


Hosea 6:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Secondly, Without evil being in the world; you can't do any good. If everything was already good in the world then you could not show mercy to anyone because everyone would be taken care of already. So God allowed evil so that we could do good.

First, you do not have to have evil in the world to do good things....that's simply not true.

Second, the "purification" baloney is nonsensical. Explain how a Hurricane or tornado or tsunami wiping out a quarter million people is "purifying" them.
Explain how a child is "purified" by being raped..................
If that what it takes for your god to accept a child as "purified" (whatever that means), then he is an ***.

 

[osgart]

I was wondering why you didn't respond to my response though. I spent an entire morning writing it, along with the conclusion.
Here is the conclusion:
Connection:
Long before Tom is born...
The father had the desire for a huge united family.
God created both heaven and earth with the intention of having a universal family - in heaven and on earth. (Psalm 115:16)
One of God's sons in heaven became rebellious, and was later joined by others. The first human pair on earth also took a rebellious course, bringing suffering and death to all mankind. (1 John 3:8; Jude 6; Romans 5:12)
That's a lot of rebellious children, so of course things as not going as the father desired, but he hasn't given up on his present or future children. He is positive - 1000% sure he will have that united family.
God's purpose temporarily interupted, he promised a savior that would accomplish his purpose for a universal family. (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16; Ephesians 1:9, 10)
God first chose the Nation of Israel as his named people, through his promise to Abraham - a man of faith.
It was his means of blessing all mankind, through the Messiah - which was the promised (savior} seed of Abraham. (Genesis 22:18)
Unfortunately, the Nation failed to live up to their side of the promise to remain faithful to God. The priests became corrupt and oppressed and misguided the people. (Jeremiah 23)
More wayward children. Some of the siblings are obviously annoyed at their behavior.
God did not cast them off, until the seed - the Messiah did arrive. (Matthew 10:5, 6; Matthew 23:37-39)
Now that the Messiah has arrived God uses that one as a means of bringing pople to righteousness.
A child that truly listens to his father and obeys, is a blessing, not only to the father, but other family members.
When Jesus Christ came to earth, there were corrupt Jewish religious leaders who failed to teach the people the sacred laws of God. (Matthew 23)
The Messiah gathers people, and teaches them to carry out that ministry - bringing people to righteousness.
Yes many more children are listening and being obedient. They could see the conflict going on, and at times they have to defend their dad, and the truth about what their father said, but they must, because some of their sibling are rebellious, and good-for-nothing, and having a negative impact on some of the others.
The True Christian congregation formed by the apostles of Christ, and grew in the midst of these corrupt Jewish leaders. (Acts 2; Acts 11:26)
A period of time came when some among those who came in, became good-for-nothing, and started distorting the teachings given by the Messiah. (Acts 20:29, 30)
Throughout this dark period, many searched in vain for truth. Bits and pieces of it remained but it was distorted by those who taught falsehood.
At that time Tom is grown, and searching for answers, but the situation with the family's disunited had come a far way.
Some people never gave up in their search though, and bits and pieces kept being found and joining together.
Some of Tom's siblings still try to get close to their father.
God used those who were willing to keep searching, and applying truth, and spreading it to others.
In time he gathered them as one, and chose them as his named people - to bring people to righteousness. (Luke 10:1; Matthew 24:14)
Some of those siblings are greatly valued by the father because of their love for him, and their willingness to obey. So he fully trusts them to convey his words to all the other siblings. He still listens and speaks to them, but he instructs them as to which of the siblings they should listen to. (Matthew 17:5; 2 Corinthians 5:20; Matthew 28:19, 20)
Many of the other siblings listen to, and follow these instructions, and benefit greatly from having a closer relationship with their father, and other brothers and sisters, (Psalms 133:1; Acts 2:42-47) despite the fact that many of the others are disunited, wayward, disobedient, and contentious. (Matthew 7:13-23).
Some allow the negative they see around them to stumble them - like Tom.
Well he has a choice.
He can either try, and keep trying to draw close to his father (James 4:8), or he can draw away (Hebrews 3:12).
The father loves him, but he's not going to force him.
If Tom responds favorably he will benefit from a united family that are in a close relationship with their father, and look forward to the time when their father's desire will be a reality - one universal family in love.

The End

Comments...
This is what I call wisdom.
God makes life both in heaven and earth, and give them free will /choice. They could choose to obey him, or otherwise.
Some in heaven choose to disobey. The ones on earth, choose to disobey, incited by one from heaven.
God allows the situation to run its course, while putting hs own measures in place.
A savior would come and open the way to salvation for all who choose to take it, and in the end he will remove all who choose otherwise.
What wisdom.

There is really no loss here God in his wisdom really allowed all intelligent being to either choose life or death.
In other words, to choose whether they wanted to live under his authority - which means abiding by his standards of what is right and just - or not. If you want to live by his standards, fine - life. If not - your choice - death.

It's the same as, if someone is dwelling under your roof, and you have some rules.
You know how it goes with some people, "Man, I couldn't care less about your rules."
So you make it clear, "You want to stay. Fine. Abide by the rules. You don't want to abide by the rules. Your choice. Leave."
We face that same situation today.

Are you saying Salvation was a mightily difficult task for God? Perhaps dealing with us on our level instead of in omnipotence.

What happens when the one who chooses life becomes a victim of the worst kinds of evils?

Is it the believer's reasonable service to endure evil unbounded?

Why make people fight the war?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The holy book says God cannot lie. Did he create lies, and liars?

So your god is limited?

Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, 2 Samuel 7:28, Psalm 119:160, Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18 all claim that your god cannot lie. However, 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chronicles 18:22, Jeremiah 4:10, Jeremiah 20:7, Ezekiel 14:9, and 2 Thessalonians 2:11 all claim that your god can and does lie. So it seems like a divided issue, but if your god is all-powerful and can do anything he wants because he's god-the-one-and-only, then it stands to reason that yes, he can lie.

It’s still disingenuous, no matter what you said, because you’re still pulling passages out of context, treating them in a dishonest way.

No, I'm not.

God didn’t literally say what you’re accusing God of having said. The author said that God said that.

Oh, so the bible isn't the word of your god? Infallible and written by your god through human hands? Isaiah 45 begins "Thus said the Lord to his anointed".

And for the record, you don’t know me well enough to comment on my “personal hang-ups.”

I may not know you personally or very well at all, but your hang-ups in this regard are written all over your responses; you don't think your god is capable of evil, and he's nothing but good and merciful. Neither was what I said ad hominem; this is literally why "The Devil" was created, because church leaders felt the need to justify and explain the existence of evil co-existing with an omnibenevolent deity. Biblical, as we can see, there's issue with this.

I make the comment even if I knew you personally; you're not a superman or holy man, so save me the "if you knew to whom you're speaking".

 

[74x12]

First, you do not have to have evil in the world to do good things....that's simply not true.

Sure you can do some good things without evil in the world. But there are some things you couldn't do. Could you be a doctor? Heal someone? And there are so many other things you couldn't do.

Second, the "purification" baloney is nonsensical. Explain how a Hurricane or tornado or tsunami wiping out a quarter million people is "purifying" them.
Explain how a child is "purified" by being raped..................
If that what it takes for your god to accept a child as "purified" (whatever that means), then he is an ***.

That's a one sided way to look at it this topic. Not everything evil that happens is to purify. Yet we know that suffering can have that effect. So that is one thing that it does do. It's just not the only thing it does.

 

[Milton Platt]

Sure you can do some good things without evil in the world. But there are some things you couldn't do. Could you be a doctor? Heal someone? And there are so many other things you couldn't do.

That's a one sided way to look at it this topic. Not everything evil that happens is to purify. Yet we know that suffering can have that effect. So that is one thing that it does do. It's just not the only thing it does.

Not one sided...objective.
Just for the sake of the argument, how do you tell evil that purifies from evil that does not?
I would suggest that any god that can only purify something through unspeakable suffering is a weak, evil being.

And would you define "purify"?

 

[nPeace]

Are you saying Salvation was a mightily difficult task for God? Perhaps dealing with us on our level instead of in omnipotence.

No. I'm not saying that?
I believe it was wisdom on God's part to determine who would live forever in his righteous world, by allowing us to choose whether we want to live by his standards of righteousness, or not.

What happens when the one who chooses life becomes a victim of the worst kinds of evils?

All good questions.
According to God's word in scripture, that one still gets life at the end of the day. A life where he never has to go through evil or suffering again.

Romans 8
Good News Translation (GNT)
The Future Glory
18 I consider that what we suffer at this present time cannot be compared at all with the glory that is going to be revealed to us. 19 All of creation waits with eager longing for God to reveal his children. 20 For creation was condemned to lose its purpose, not of its own will, but because God willed it to be so. Yet there was the hope 21 that creation itself would one day be set free from its slavery to decay and would share the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that up to the present time all of creation groans with pain, like the pain of childbirth. 23 But it is not just creation alone which groans; we who have the Spirit as the first of God's gifts also groan within ourselves as we wait for God to make us his children and set our whole being free. 24 For it was by hope that we were saved; but if we see what we hope for, then it is not really hope. For who of us hopes for something we see? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Is it the believer's reasonable service to endure evil unbounded?

Why make people fight the war?

As the scripture above shows, it's not unbounded.
Consider though... Suppose that everyone born, just lived one day and then died. Or suppose no one was ever born.
Which do you prefer? One of the above, or to be alive, even though suffering, but having a sure hope that the suffering will end some day, not just for you, but for the entire world.
Furthermore, the suffering you endure will be like one millisecond, completed compared to millenniums?

Millions of people who have hope in God's promise of everlasting life free of suffering, evil, and death, are happy to endure. They appreciate their privilege to be alive, and get to know of their creator's qualifies and his purpose.

Everyone has the opportunity to know of this hope.
All it takes is a humble heart, and a hunger for truth, as well as an honest assessment of both.

 

[nPeace]

So your god is limited?

Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, 2 Samuel 7:28, Psalm 119:160, Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18 all claim that your god cannot lie. However, 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chronicles 18:22, Jeremiah 4:10, Jeremiah 20:7, Ezekiel 14:9, and 2 Thessalonians 2:11 all claim that your god can and does lie. So it seems like a divided issue, but if your god is all-powerful and can do anything he wants because he's god-the-one-and-only, then it stands to reason that yes, he can lie.

I read each of those scriptures, and none of them says God lies.
They do show that he can allow persons to believe a lie, or allow a person to follow their own lying course.

Can God become darkness?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I read each of those scriptures, and none of them says God lies.

Then you're reading what you want to read. Kings and Chronicles tell of your god putting "lying spirits" in peoples mouths and making them lie. So there's "creating liars", as was asked. Jeremiah 4:10 says "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem" Jeremiah 20:7 says "O LORD, thou hast deceived me" Ezekiel says "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet". Thessalonians says "God shall send them strong delusion"

And if your god creates darkness, then it only stands to reason that he can become darkness.

Is your god all-powerful and all that there is? Or is he limited by your positive hopes, sharing a stage with an evil figure that's able to thwart him constantly?

 

[nPeace]

Then you're reading what you want to read. Kings and Chronicles tell of your god putting "lying spirits" in peoples mouths and making them lie. So there's "creating liars", as was asked. Jeremiah 4:10 says "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem" Jeremiah 20:7 says "O LORD, thou hast deceived me" Ezekiel says "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet". Thessalonians says "God shall send them strong delusion"

And if your god creates darkness, then it only stands to reason that he can become darkness.

Is your god all-powerful and all that there is? Or is he limited by your positive hopes, sharing a stage with an evil figure that's able to thwart him constantly?

Still does not say he lied. Can you deceive someone without lying? I can.

I already been through the darkness bit. You see it how you want. No blood spilled.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Can you deceive someone without lying?

No, you cannot. Playing fast-and-loose with words doesn't make you honest in deception. A lie is a lie.

 

[nPeace]

No, you cannot. Playing fast-and-loose with words doesn't make you honest in deception. A lie is a lie.

I think we need other opinions on that.
Difference between Lying and Deception

Another accepted distinction claims that a lie is a type of deception, while not all deceptions are based on lies. This is similar to banana is a type of fruit but not all fruits are bananas. Lying includes deceiving someone, while not all types of deceit are considered as lying. A person could intentionally leave out information, that can result in deceit but it won’t be considered lying. Similarly, magic would not be considered as lying. If the magician says I’m going to make a particular object disappear, he is not lying. He is making the object disappear, but he is deceiving the viewer by using a trick. A lie can be told for the benefit of someone, while deceit is not always done with good intentions. However, magic is an exception of this.

Lying is a form of deception. Deception, however, does not always involve lying.
Difference Between Lying and Deception | Lying vs Deception
• Lying is to make a deliberate false statement.
• Lying is usually verbal.

• Deception is causing to believe something false.
• Deception can both be intentional or else unintentional in which case the person becomes self-deceived.

• Lying is only one form of deception.

However, everyone has their opinion.
I'm not going to argue over it, if someone continues to hold to their opinion.

 

[74x12]

Just for the sake of the argument, how do you tell evil that purifies from evil that does not?

If you're a child of God then the evil in the world has the work of making you better. Because you are not a conqueror without a battle. For example the happiness that the mountain climber feels when they plant a flag on the peak is because the climb was so difficult. This is how evil purifies your faith, love, joy and any virtue because it is tested and therefore it's strengthened because it overcame temptation.

So just like a climber needs to actually climb mountains to improve their climbing skills. The same thing to improve your moral character. Or just like anyone must exercise to grow their muscles.

Or take courage. You can say it or show it.
Faith you can say it, or show it.
Faithfulness, you can say it or ... you get my point?

I would suggest that any god that can only purify something through unspeakable suffering is a weak, evil being.

May I suggest that maybe God knows more than you about this topic? And this is not the only way that God purifies. The main way that God purifies is through the unmerited favor of God. That is God working within someone to make them better. Not you, but the love of God in you. (Galatians 5:22-23)

And would you define "purify"?

Do you want a dictionary definition or my take on it or something else? I don't know what to expect when people ask me to define a word.

The analogy is of refining of gold. You have to heat up and melt gold to make it pure. Otherwise it's just gold "ore". It's not necessarily that beautiful.

 

[sojourner]

Then you're reading what you want to read. Kings and Chronicles tell of your god putting "lying spirits" in peoples mouths and making them lie. So there's "creating liars", as was asked. Jeremiah 4:10 says "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem" Jeremiah 20:7 says "O LORD, thou hast deceived me" Ezekiel says "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet". Thessalonians says "God shall send them strong delusion"

And if your god creates darkness, then it only stands to reason that he can become darkness.

Is your god all-powerful and all that there is? Or is he limited by your positive hopes, sharing a stage with an evil figure that's able to thwart him constantly?

You’re still taking passages out of context, glomming them together, and drawing conclusions that were clearly not intended.