Faith

[stvdv]

OK , then. Let's start with faith. I'd like to point out something that often bothers me about the skeptical's take on faith. it's rather insulting to a believer.

You [OP] have been an atheist first 20+ years. So you remember Christians using emotional blackmail on atheists "you go to hell to mention just 1".

So rather then pointing out "atheists can be insulting to a believer", I think it's more complete and honest to say "Christians still insult atheists so badly for 2000 years already, so atheists have all the right to to mirror Christians bad behavior. I fully understand. But I do hope Christians grow up one day and start giving the right example and naturally atheists will stop insulting".

 

[blü 2]

OK , then. Let's start with faith. I'd like to point out something that often bothers me about the skeptical's take on faith. it's rather insulting to a believer. Faith isn't blind, it's something that is built up through knowledge. Its like the faith one establishes over time in a relationship, with a friend or spouse, for example. You build trust in someone by getting to know them. Because they give you no reason to feel otherwise.

I have no argument with faith that remains open to new ideas, and is capable of change.

I have many arguments with faith that replaces learning, faith that has no curiosity to find what's true in reality.

 

[whirlingmerc]

OK , then. Let's start with faith. I'd like to point out something that often bothers me about the skeptical's take on faith. it's rather insulting to a believer. Faith isn't blind, it's something that is built up through knowledge. Its like the faith one establishes over time in a relationship, with a friend or spouse, for example. You build trust in someone by getting to know them. Because they give you no reason to feel otherwise.

Test even the inspired expression. (Acts 17:11 / 1 John 4:1-3 / 2 Thessalonians 2:2)

Saving faith is a leap toward the light. Blind faith doesn't represent that.
One might say 'I once was blind but now I see' but that isn't what is meant by blind faith.

Jesus said in John 3 that judgement is based on loving darkness or light

 

[shunyadragon]

You have been an atheist 20 years ago. So you remember Christians using emotional blackmail on atheists "you go to hell to mention just 1".

Who are you referring to here as 'you' who as been an atheist for 20 years?

So rather then pointing out "atheists can be insulting to a believer", I think it's more complete and honest to say "Christians still insult atheists so badly for 2000 years already, so atheists have all the right to to mirror Christians bad behavior. I fully understand. But I do hope Christians grow up one day and start giving the right example and naturally atheists will stop insulting".

 

[Earthling]

Hi..........

Your sentence, above, is a contradiction within itself.
I have never heard of a Christian Knowledge, or Christian Certitude.
Never......

You learn something new every day.

 

[Earthling]

You don't know, you assume based on past experience. They may be one or many reasons the tree does not produce fruit. Example where I live is walnut country, last year a series of storms just when the fruit was setting effectively destroyed the harvest.

Then you learned that, through no fault of the trees, that you can't completely have faith in their producing fruit. This is wisdom.

You are still laboring under the mistaken premise that faith is more than the definition.

Good idea. Let's define faith. It turns out it has tow applications, this word faith. 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something. 2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Wikipedia adds the following: "In the context of religion, one can define faith as confidence or trust in a particular system of religious belief, within which faith may equate to confidence based on some perceived degree of warrant."

There is a point of law which boils down to "ignorance of the law is no excuse"

So we are responsible for our own faith. If we are ignorant of a promise being deprived of us, we are responsible or accountable for that willful ignorance, but there is nothing wrong with being ignorant of something you haven't had the opportunity to educate yourself on. We are responsible for knowing the law. You don't get behind the wheel of a car without being responsible and accountable to the law.

Sin is different. Sin is a Hebrew word that means, literally to miss the mark. If, in the Bible archers and stone or spear throwers missed their target it was a sin. In order to sin against someone you have only to miss the mark set by them. If your boss says be at work at 6:00 AM sharp and you show up at a quarter after you have sinned against your boss. If you don't know that the mark has been set then how can you be held responsible or accountable to it? You can not, in all fairness.

However, if you are born into sin that means you inherit it. Like an innocent child of someone who committed and is imprisoned for a crime, though not responsible for the crime the child is nevertheless, effected negatively by the results. Whether they know it or not. In order for those negative effects to be lifted justice must be served.

 

[Earthling]

Who are you referring to here as 'you' who as been an atheist for 20 years?

Frank, you seemed to have mistakenly attributed the following to me in the above post: "So rather then pointing out "atheists can be insulting to a believer", I think it's more complete and honest to say "Christians still insult atheists so badly for 2000 years already, so atheists have all the right to to mirror Christians bad behavior. I fully understand. But I do hope Christians grow up one day and start giving the right example and naturally atheists will stop insulting."

Since I didn't say that can I assume that you intended to address it to me? I think that's an unhealthy attitude, and as one sided as you claimed my original offense at the implication of ignorance on the part of the atheists.

this is a generalization, but I think Christians tend to have the illusion of superior morality and the atheists tend to have an illusion of superior intelligence. We each need to come to understand this, and make necessary adjustments.

 

[ChristineM]

Then you learned that, through no fault of the trees, that you can't completely have faith in their producing fruit. This is wisdom.



Good idea. Let's define faith. It turns out it has tow applications, this word faith. 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something. 2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Wikipedia adds the following: "In the context of religion, one can define faith as confidence or trust in a particular system of religious belief, within which faith may equate to confidence based on some perceived degree of warrant."



So we are responsible for our own faith. If we are ignorant of a promise being deprived of us, we are responsible or accountable for that willful ignorance, but there is nothing wrong with being ignorant of something you haven't had the opportunity to educate yourself on. We are responsible for knowing the law. You don't get behind the wheel of a car without being responsible and accountable to the law.

Sin is different. Sin is a Hebrew word that means, literally to miss the mark. If, in the Bible archers and stone or spear throwers missed their target it was a sin. In order to sin against someone you have only to miss the mark set by them. If your boss says be at work at 6:00 AM sharp and you show up at a quarter after you have sinned against your boss. If you don't know that the mark has been set then how can you be held responsible or accountable to it? You can not, in all fairness.

However, if you are born into sin that means you inherit it. Like an innocent child of someone who committed and is imprisoned for a crime, though not responsible for the crime the child is nevertheless, effected negatively by the results. Whether they know it or not. In order for those negative effects to be lifted justice must be served.

Yes that's essentially what i said.

Yes belief not fact/knowledge

Sin is irrelevant to people who don't follow a particular creed that uses the idea of sin as a weapon

If a boss says 6 and you arrive at 6:15 then you are late and may be docked 15 minutes wages. Where is the sin in a failed alarm, a breakdown or traffic congestion?

If the boss does not say then... No one is a mind reader.

As for your last paragraph, damned good job I'm not of the mind to blame children for the actions of parents. Its one of the aspects bof religion i truly hate.

 

[Earthling]

As a skeptic, the problem that I encounter is when I am talking with a theist and we're discussing the evidence for why I should trust in whatever god claim they are making, there comes a point at which they say something like, "You just have to have faith... or you just have to take it on faith..." because the evidence that I require to find the claim to be trustworthy isn't available. That is to say, at some point I must blindly trust or have blind faith in some aspect of their argument.

That's no kind of answer. I would never give that as an answer. I may say I don't know the answer, and I would try and find the answer but I would never say that you have to take it on faith. However, since we are talking about faith, blind or not, there may be times when you just have to have faith. That sounds like it could be a contradiction but we are making the distinction between some specific knowledge and faith.

Let me explain by example. I've been a student of the Bible for 22 years, I know fairly well what God's plans are for the world. I'm educated on the subject. The why, the what, but I don't know the when and man, I would love to see it. I would love to see the corrupt system torn down in front of my eyes. I know it will happen because God promises it, but I want to know when. I just have to have faith. It isn't blind faith, but it is faith.

It isn't knowledge in the sense that I can say for certain that it is going to happen. It isn't a fact that has transpired. It isn't yet past tense. But that doesn't mean it comes from ignorance nor that the faith is blind.

 

[Earthling]

New international version gives this:
Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord.

I think "fruits of the soil" just means "fruits that have been grown". It doesn't mean "rotten fruit" IMO.
[And easy seen when common sense is used "one offers to please God; so rotten fruit is highly unlikely"]

Absolutely, that they were fruit of the soil doesn't imply any fault on Cain's part, but the Bible makes the distinction that Abel chose his finest whereas Cain didn't.

 

[Thief]

OK , then. Let's start with faith. I'd like to point out something that often bothers me about the skeptical's take on faith. it's rather insulting to a believer. Faith isn't blind, it's something that is built up through knowledge. Its like the faith one establishes over time in a relationship, with a friend or spouse, for example. You build trust in someone by getting to know them. Because they give you no reason to feel otherwise.

Test even the inspired expression. (Acts 17:11 / 1 John 4:1-3 / 2 Thessalonians 2:2)

so you have no doubt?......in spite of what you see around you

 

[Earthling]

Concerning the scriptural basis for Christianity the skeptics have good reason to question any claims of Christianity concerning the 'evidence' claimed that the gospels date and authorship, and the lack of provenance and authorship of Genesis and the Pentateuch that would make it reliable as a basis of revealed scripture, which the church fathers and unknown authors and editors of the gospels claimed a literal interpretation.

Lets not get distracted and go off topic, I have my hands full responding to the posts now. Suffice it to say they most certainly do not. I refer you to my website, which you can access through the link in my signature, and then in the top menu under the heading The Bible.

Other than 'faith' what is the basis for this 'belief' and trust of the scripture?

Knowledge John 17:3

 

[Earthling]

You [OP] have been an atheist first 20+ years. So you remember Christians using emotional blackmail on atheists "you go to hell to mention just 1".

So rather then pointing out "atheists can be insulting to a believer", I think it's more complete and honest to say "Christians still insult atheists so badly for 2000 years already, so atheists have all the right to to mirror Christians bad behavior. I fully understand. But I do hope Christians grow up one day and start giving the right example and naturally atheists will stop insulting".

I see the text in read was addressed to me, but written by you. I've responded to it as it was mistakenly attributed to me in a post by sunny dragon. Post # 47

And yes, I remember. My grandmother used to go to church on Sundays. I felt sorry for her going alone so I went with her once when I was about 5 or 6. I remember the Pastor, or whatever he was called looking down at me with contempt and saying: "Do you know what happens to little boys who don't go to church?" And I said "No." "They go to hell." he said. Now, my folks taught us that there was no words that were obscene, at least in the sense that us kids, even at that age, could say anything we heard them say, and to me at the time, going to hell was an insult. I didn't know anything more about it than that, so I said to him: "Well, you can go to hell."

The back of my grandma's hand came down hard across my face and I ran home in the rain, never to step foot in a church again. I guess I have the Pastor to thank for that. But I discovered much later that hell was a pagan myth adopted by apostate Christianity.

 

[shunyadragon]

Lets not get distracted and go off topic, I have my hands full responding to the posts now. Suffice it to say they most certainly do not. I refer you to my website, which you can access through the link in my signature, and then in the top menu under the heading The Bible. Knowledge John 17:3

I reviewed the information in your website and found it full of holes. In fact you had not addressed the dating of the Pentateuch prior to ~1000-700 BCE, for which there is no evidence. You side step the documentary hypothesis with an argument from ignorance and an accusation to atheists, which is a bogus argument. The documentary hypothesis is most definitely not presently an atheist argument, nor is it totally rejected as you claim.

A lot of the sources you cite are a bit old.

Where in the website do you give evidence for the Pentateuch prior to ~700 BCE?

 

[shunyadragon]

You learn something new every day.

The problem remains that the claim of Christian knowledge is terribly inconsistent from one church to another, and actually a justified criticism from the skeptical perspective. Claims as others are 'apostate' believers and we (whoever We is?) have the True Christian knowledge is too common..

 

[stvdv]

I see the text in read was addressed to me, but written by you. I've responded to it as it was mistakenly attributed to me in a post by sunny dragon. Post # 47

And yes, I remember. My grandmother used to go to church on Sundays. I felt sorry for her going alone so I went with her once when I was about 5 or 6. I remember the Pastor, or whatever he was called looking down at me with contempt and saying: "Do you know what happens to little boys who don't go to church?" And I said "No." "They go to hell." he said. Now, my folks taught us that there was no words that were obscene, at least in the sense that us kids, even at that age, could say anything we heard them say, and to me at the time, going to hell was an insult. I didn't know anything more about it than that, so I said to him: "Well, you can go to hell."

The back of my grandma's hand came down hard across my face and I ran home in the rain, never to step foot in a church again. I guess I have the Pastor to thank for that. But I discovered much later that hell was a pagan myth adopted by apostate Christianity.

Thanks for sharing. It proofs a 5 year old sometimes teaches a Pastor or grandma a lesson or 2. But also in my experience they usually don't get the lesson offered.

 

[shunyadragon]

Thanks for sharing. It proofs a 5 year old sometimes teaches a Pastor or grandma a lesson or 2. But also in my experience they usually don't get the lesson offered.

I still contend that claims of youthful beliefs in atheism are over rated.

 

[Earthling]

Yes that's essentially what i said.

Yes belief not fact/knowledge

Therein lies the dilemma. When an atheist says evolution is a fact or a believer says that creation is a fact they are both wrong. We each tend to present something as fact when it isn't. This abuse doesn't negate knowledge in either given subject.

Sin is irrelevant to people who don't follow a particular creed that uses the idea of sin as a weapon

The same could be said about the aforementioned evolution.

If a boss says 6 and you arrive at 6:15 then you are late and may be docked 15 minutes wages.

Correct.

Where is the sin in a failed alarm, a breakdown or traffic congestion?

Well, it would be wise to allow for such possible delays, but the law should be tempered with mercy as well.

If the boss does not say then... No one is a mind reader.

Correct, but if the bass left a memo and you simply neglected to bother with it it's an altogether different story.

 

[ChristineM]

Therein lies the dilemma. When an atheist says evolution is a fact or a believer says that creation is a fact they are both wrong. We each tend to present something as fact when it isn't. This abuse doesn't negate knowledge in either given subject.



The same could be said about the aforementioned evolution.



Correct.



Well, it would be wise to allow for such possible delays, but the law should be tempered with mercy as well.



Correct, but if the bass left a memo and you simply neglected to bother with it it's an altogether different story.

The evidence for evolution is beyond doubt, the evidence for god magic is nonexistent.

See above

Of course, i am woman, always correct


What law? I thought we were discussing working hours

Not saying so implies communication in any form.

 

[Earthling]

The problem remains that the claim of Christian knowledge is terribly inconsistent from one church to another, and actually a justified criticism from the skeptical perspective. Claims as others are 'apostate' believers and we (whoever We is?) have the True Christian knowledge is too common..

Well, no one wants to be a part of the religion that promotes itself as the untruth.