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Critical thinking versus "go with the flow, its much safer"

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I wish basic logic was taught starting in junior high school. Ideas such as truth tables and valid rules of inference should be common knowledge. Not so long ago, geometry was once the linchpin to later studies of logic, but that, sadly, no longer seems to be the case. An exposure to the notion of mathematical proof and some of the standard logical errors should be much more common than it is. Even if the math is never used again, the precision of thought is invaluable training.

In regards to religion, I have seen some absolutely silly arguments made about the impossibility of infinite regresses that some basic set theory would shed light upon. Other notions, such as partial orders and equivalence relations would, I believe, help philosophers immensely if they would just take a bit of time to learn them. If nothing else, it would fix some very poor arguments about 'greatest' things necessarily existing, etc.

Maybe too much for many, basic logic would be something though but some religions forbid even saying their gods name let alone question it.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Once travelling back to the uk from Toulouse, dropped our bags and went for breakfast. Just sat down and the tannoy instructed me to immediately go to security. Two big, beefy officers grilled me about what i had in my bag, if i packed it myself etc. Very sternly I was told to open my case. The officers backed away and placed their hands on their guns. I was petrified but managed to unlock the case. "Oh, its only pastis, thank you madam" one said.

Two bottles of pastis next to each other with the lead for my phone charger draped over them. They though it was a binary explosive.

After a release of tension laugh i returned to my breakfast which was cold and my hubby laughed all the way home.

LOL, that sounds hilarious, I would have laughed too.
Today is a classic, we have Germans in the hotel and they are expecting a hotel inspector so told not to work today.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
LOL, that sounds hilarious, I would have laughed too.
Today is a classic, we have Germans in the hotel and they are expecting a hotel inspector so told not to work today.

Definitely a Faulty Towers moment.

This morning we had our French culture lesson, the tutor is German ;-/

She actually was born French buy took German nationally.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Definitely a Faulty Towers moment.

This morning we had our French culture lesson, the tutor is German ;-/

She actually was born French buy took German nationally.

LOL,that funny, been to a market, plenty of wild mushrooms and cheese but not much else other than fruit and veg, stopped at a bar and there's me and the barman, that's it
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
LOL,that funny, been to a market, plenty of wild mushrooms and cheese but not much else other than fruit and veg, stopped at a bar and there's me and the barman, that's it

French rural life...

Here the market in winter consists of a fruit and veg stall and vin de Domme vendor (not half bad local plonk). Over the last month things began improving include a cheese seller, a saucisson stall, flowers and the ubiquitous strawberry seller. This week the wine seller got his summer competition with a monbazillac seller (my fave wine). And of course the separate truffle market.

Looking forward to next month when the night markets start. If you are still in France i recommend you give one a try.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
For some people, 'go with the flow' means something altogether different. It doesn't mean to follow the crowd, to follow the dogma, to obey your scripture, or anything like that.

It means to follow your insights or your gut, or your intuition, obtained from inner meditation, or flashes of insight. It can mean absolutely going against the flow of the kind you're talking about.

So it's not critical thinking at all, via the intellect, but it's also not following the masses ... a third alternative, if you will.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Don't just about all ideologies? Is there any significant way that religion differs from, say, Ayn Rand in that regard?
I feel compelled to point out that there are, at least, a lot more objects of discussion with absolutely no basis in reality within religious ideologies. Sure, someone might make up a few terms, and make some fairly big assumptions/leaps/stretches about the nature of people in non-religious ideologies... but for the most part they don't take flying leaps into realms of fantasy the way religion does. At least in my experience.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I agree in some ways, I mean you could get excommunicated or decapitated if you dare question some religions but apart from the mentally infirm we all have the ability to question don't we?.

I believe the "French Acquaintance" is at once both right and wrong about human nature.
I believe Sunstone hit the nail on the head. "Human Nature". As I think about it, there isn't corner market on who does critically think and who doesn't as human nature is prevalent in all sectors.

Whether it is BREXIT, politics or whatever, there are those who think critically and those who don't. One could question, if "everyone agrees" on a topic, are they just going with the flow?

And perhaps if "religion" was the only subject that created "heated discussion", could it be that was the only topic that had critical thinking implemented and on all other subjects everyone was just going with the flow? :D (This was a just a ribbing moment - I'm sure that there was critical thinking involved)
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
French rural life...

Here the market in winter consists of a fruit and veg stall and vin de Domme vendor (not half bad local plonk). Over the last month things began improving include a cheese seller, a saucisson stall, flowers and the ubiquitous strawberry seller. This week the wine seller got his summer competition with a monbazillac seller (my fave wine). And of course the separate truffle market.

Looking forward to next month when the night markets start. If you are still in France i recommend you give one a try.

Thanks for the info it's appreciated
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I believe Sunstone hit the nail on the head. "Human Nature". As I think about it, there isn't corner market on who does critically think and who doesn't as human nature is prevalent in all sectors.

Whether it is BREXIT, politics or whatever, there are those who think critically and those who don't. One could question, if "everyone agrees" on a topic, are they just going with the flow?

And perhaps if "religion" was the only subject that created "heated discussion", could it be that was the only topic that had critical thinking implemented and on all other subjects everyone was just going with the flow? :D (This was a just a ribbing moment - I'm sure that there was critical thinking involved)

I think religion is a different kettle of fish from other topics such as brexit, its possible I voted leave but if there is another referendum I may choose to vote remain, there is no penalty either way and only on the result of the referendum.

Now on a child indoctrinated into a religion may not even be allowed to question critically his/her religion, there may be consequences Of this, psychological or physical, Islam is an example of this so although I think there are devoutly religious people capable of critical think they simply can't so "go with the flow".
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
For some people, 'go with the flow' means something altogether different. It doesn't mean to follow the crowd, to follow the dogma, to obey your scripture, or anything like that.

It means to follow your insights or your gut, or your intuition, obtained from inner meditation, or flashes of insight. It can mean absolutely going against the flow of the kind you're talking about.

So it's not critical thinking at all, via the intellect, but it's also not following the masses ... a third alternative, if you will.

Imo many go with the flow, after all isn't that what they are told to do, isn't that what the pope and imams preach.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Don't just about all ideologies? Is there any significant way that religion differs from, say, Ayn Rand in that regard?

True, but some are more rational and substantiated than others. Of course, all of them should be approached critically and objectively.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Imo many go with the flow, after all isn't that what they are told to do, isn't that what the pope and imams preach.
Yes they do. But 'flow' means something else to me entirely. Let go of attachment so one can flow with the river of life. All depends on context I guess.
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So here in France after a nice dinner and a glass or two of vin ordinaire and a discussion on politics and the EU brexit thing and charli hebdo it then moved on to religion, after some heated discussion about these topics a French aqaintence said "devout religious people are incapable of critical thinking, they just go with the flow, its safer", I agree in some ways, I mean you could get excommunicated or decapitated if you dare question some religions but apart from the mentally infirm we all have the ability to question don't we?.

My dinners here in France are not normally that exciting ;)

I don't think it's a matter of religion or at least, not just religion. The ability to think critically is part genetic and part cultural. Religion might have an influence in some cases but I don't think it's the only factor.
For example, a few years ago I worked with a group of people form south Asia and all of them were very meek and obedient. They did whatever they were told, always with a smile, never argued back. For me that was the weirdest thing. In time I realized that it was simply the way they were raised. They accepted things that for me were out of the question because where they come from that's the way things work. Were they incapable of critical thinking? Maybe. But that's probably because when they were growing up no one trained to think and analyse and search for logic.
I think critical thinking can be developed and improved with training.
"Going with the flow" is safer in some cases. If people know that their lives will be in danger, I understand that they prefer to let it be. I know some cases of people who are secretly atheists and kept that from their families to avoid a punishment that can be very severe, even to death.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
So does atheism.

Atheism isn't an ideology, has no doctrine or tenets, doesn't make promises or fill gaps with unsubstantiated presumptions, etc. so I can only assume that you made that comment out of butthurt and bitterness.
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
My dinners here in France are not normally that exciting ;)

I don't think it's a matter of religion or at least, not just religion. The ability to think critically is part genetic and part cultural. Religion might have an influence in some cases but I don't think it's the only factor.
For example, a few years ago I worked with a group of people form south Asia and all of them were very meek and obedient. They did whatever they were told, always with a smile, never argued back. For me that was the weirdest thing. In time I realized that it was simply the way they were raised. They accepted things that for me were out of the question because where they come from that's the way things work. Were they incapable of critical thinking? Maybe. But that's probably because when they were growing up no one trained to think and analyse and search for logic.
I think critical thinking can be developed and improved with training.
"Going with the flow" is safer in some cases. If people know that their lives will be in danger, I understand that they prefer to let it be. I know some cases of people who are secretly atheists and kept that from their families to avoid a punishment that can be very severe, even to death.

I can't remember a boring dinner in France, politics and religion, peas from the same pod,maybe try some new dinner guests.

I agree with you that some, well in fact many in the world may have in fact used critical thinking in regards to their religion and concluded that "I don't want to go to chop chop Square".

Some religions breed their own, from birth they are indoctrinated physically into a religion, I'll spare the details, then once they can learn they are taught what their parents were taught, monkey see monkey do, they aren't ever taught to question critically, some not even allowed to say the name of who they worship, those that do and there have been many have suffered for it physically or psychologically.

I don't think you need a course on critical thinking,anyone can do it if we are allowed to.
 
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