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Russia is Rounding up Jehovah's Witnesses.

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I understand. That's more a thing for the "insiders" I think.
You are an atheist. Am I correct to assume you believe:"heaven,hell don't exist, so going there is not even an issue"?
To clear up any dust. I do not believe in "heaven,hell". But in some conversations I hypothetically take it into account.
Sometimes I might go into it fully, and even feel "the heat of the hell" so to speak, in which I do not believe of course.

I'm an atheist, and don't believe in heaven or hell, apart from the occasional use of them in a figurative sense when I write.

My only interest in them is their impact on human behaviour.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you not have freedom of speech where you are? That is, aren't you entitled to express your opinions as you please? Can't you get up on a soapbox and rant away, should you so choose?

.....and isn't proselytizing just attempting to persuade others to your point of view? According to the dictionary, proselytizing is an attempt to convert someone from one religion, belief or opinion to another. In fact, every single politician, debater or arguer of any point, religious, scientific, philosophical or political is proselytizing. We all have the right to do that.

At least, I think we do and at least where I live I can express what I think about it. These rights do not change simply because the topic being discussed is religion...or 'spiritual life."

BTW, your statement that 'spiritual life" is an 'inward path,' and that a 'personal connection' with the Divine shouldn't be 'taken outside,' is your opinion about religion, and by stating it, YOU are proselytizing.

Oh, and by figuring that your opinion regarding 'spiritual life' trumps those of others who go out and preach on street corners is advocating a denial of freedom of speech.

I know, I know, that comes as an uncomfortable thought, the idea that freedom of speech and freedom of religion means that people you disagree with have just as much right to believe, and act according to those beliefs, as you do, but.....hey. If you want to keep your rights, you MUST acknowledge theirs. Even if they annoy you.

It's just part of the deal, y'know?
I think you should redefine your definition of proselytizing.
@stvdv doesn't censure anyone. @Deeje does that.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thank you for sharing "the Jehovah's Witnesses are all about eliminating them by God". I am quite sure you don't fantasize that, being in a debate post;) [or you would be a masochist; soon to be eaten alive in debate]. I got some big slaps on the wrist about my "Hell" misinterpretation. But when I read your line, then this is exactly what I picture with Hell used by Christians.

Your "hell" comments were dead wrong. "Hell" is Christendom's concept of conscious suffering and torment for all eternity for those who are deemed to be wicked. How is that even close to what the Bible teaches about the condition of the dead? There is no consciousness after death for any of us, according to the Bible. There is a 'resurrection for both the righteous and the unrighteous', but not for the wicked, whom God will leave in death, never to see life again. That is a far cry from the "hell" taught by the churches.

According to scripture, at the judgment time, those who are considered "goats" by God (not humans) will be consigned to the same place as the devil and his hordes.

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world......Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:31-46)

This "everlasting fire" Jesus called "gehenna". In the Revelation, it is called "the lake of fire" but it is not a literal place of conscious suffering in eternal flames....it is a symbolic place representing complete destruction of all that goes to that place. Death and hades (the grave) are said to go to that place too. It represents what "gehenna" was to Jews, which was the city's garbage dump where the fires were kept burning day and night to dispose of refuse. The Bible makes it clear that there are things that God considers to be "garbage".....and that is all that offends him. False gods, false religion and failure to credit creation to its Creator are high on his list. Immoral conduct and failure to "love" (agape) our fellow man are also way up there.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1974448?q=death+hades+lake+fire&p=par

He has made it clear to us what is acceptable to him and what is not, but he allows us to choose our own course. He just doesn't give us a choice of outcome. If we choose to follow a path in opposition to him, there is only one outcome. That is what we believe. If you don't want to believe that, that is up to you.

So again proof that my reply was quite accurate. And I am glad I didn't take this info out of my reply. I did apologize for wrongly wording it [I didn't know what I know now]. So afterall I think Deeje should apologize to me for interpreting my words wrongly. But as I have stated. That chapter I closed now. It's all fine. Afterall I was not accurate myself also. So we were both wrong.

You left no room in your overall assessment of our beliefs to even provide a reason for an apology. You can't change the goalposts to justify posting things that are not true and then assume that what I said was false. We have no "hell"....period.

You need to check your facts before offering an opinion that has no connection to the truth. You seem to do this a lot. It is my request that you stop doing this.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sorry, I have no clue what you mean by 'liberalish thing'.
It's just this feeling I have about how liberalism can go wrong (I'm not saying liberalism is a bad thing; I'm saying it can be a bad thing).

When you give too many rights to splinter groups (the old "Umbrella" of the Democrat party), you can start to outlaw things that seem politically incorrect, like people who demand that their religion is the truth. Do you get what I'm saying?

It's like "No prayer in public schools" gone too far. Does that help?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Rounding them up?? I thought they just come to your door with pamphlets!

Yes...its such a threat to life as we know it....:eek:

A government has to raid peace-loving Christians with assault rifles and combat gear and haul them before the courts on trumped up anti-terrorism charges. Go figure? Who thought bringing a message of peace could be so threatening? :shrug:

I think it has more to do with the Russian Orthodox Church trying to eliminate anyone who disagrees with them. :rolleyes:
Same thing happened to Jesus with the Pharisees. (John 15:18-21)
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It's just this feeling I have about how liberalism can go wrong (I'm not saying liberalism is a bad thing; I'm saying it can be a bad thing).

When you give too many rights to splinter groups (the old "Umbrella" of the Democrat party), you can start to outlaw things that seem politically incorrect, like people who demand that their religion is the truth. Do you get what I'm saying?

It's like "No prayer in public schools" gone too far. Does that help?

Well...it might help me understand what you meant. But if I'm understanding you correctly I completely disagree.

Which right do you think the JWs are pushing too far?
How does that equate to liberalism, given that neither the JWs nor those rounding them up would be even loosely describable as 'liberals'??
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Yes...its such a threat to life as we know it....:eek:

A government has to raid peace-loving Christians with assault rifles and combat gear and haul them before the courts on trumped up anti-terrorism charges. Go figure? Who thought bringing a message of peace could be so threatening? :shrug:

I think it has more to do with the Russian Orthodox Church trying to eliminate anyone who disagrees with them. :rolleyes:
Same thing happened to Jesus with the Pharisees. (John 15:18-21)
Let us not forget China and Russia are second rate countries at this time.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well...it might help me understand what you meant. But if I'm understanding you correctly I completely disagree.

Which right do you think the JWs are pushing too far?
How does that equate to liberalism, given that neither the JWs nor those rounding them up would be even loosely describable as 'liberals'??
I don't know if liberalism or conservatism is doing it. This is due to Jehovah Witnesses insisting theirs is the true religion is my understanding.

I like what I said about not having prayer in public school going too far.

Sorry... I feel like I've already answered you.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I think you should redefine your definition of proselytizing.
@stvdv doesn't censure anyone. @Deeje does that.

Not my definition. It's the dictionary definition, and it's not an insult. "Proselytizing' is just about attempting to teach and persuade. it doesn't become a horrible thing to do just because you don't like whatever it is that the proselytizer wants to convince you of.

I mean, really; the entire movie industry proselytes for liberalism. I can't remember the last time, for instance, that I saw a movie where the President of the United States (if fictional...and sometimes not then. Lincoln was a Republican, after all, and all the movies about him do like to forget that) was portrayed as a good guy if he was a Republican, or a bad guy if he was a Democrat. THAT is proselytizing. It's funny and obvious, and definitely proselytizing.

Everytime an atheist pipes up and argues that religion is a bad thing and should be outlawed in schools and in parades and on street corners, he's proselytizing.

.....and yeah, when a young Mormon missionary stands on the street corner handing out 'tracts' and talking to people, he's proselytizing. I don't see a problem with either person attempting to advance his point of view.
 
Last edited:

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Your "hell" comments were dead wrong. "Hell" is Christendom's concept of conscious suffering and torment for all eternity for those who are deemed to be wicked. How is that even close to what the Bible teaches about the condition of the dead? There is no consciousness after death for any of us, according to the Bible. There is a 'resurrection for both the righteous and the unrighteous', but not for the wicked, whom God will leave in death, never to see life again. That is a far cry from the "hell" taught by the churches.

According to scripture, at the judgment time, those who are considered "goats" by God (not humans) will be consigned to the same place as the devil and his hordes.

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world......Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:31-46)

This "everlasting fire" Jesus called "gehenna". In the Revelation, it is called "the lake of fire" but it is not a literal place of conscious suffering in eternal flames....it is a symbolic place representing complete destruction of all that goes to that place. Death and hades (the grave) are said to go to that place too. It represents what "gehenna" was to Jews, which was the city's garbage dump where the fires were kept burning day and night to dispose of refuse. The Bible makes it clear that there are things that God considers to be "garbage".....and that is all that offends him. False gods, false religion and failure to credit creation to its Creator are high on his list. Immoral conduct and failure to "love" (agape) our fellow man are also way up there.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1974448?q=death+hades+lake+fire&p=par

He has made it clear to us what is acceptable to him and what is not, but he allows us to choose our own course. He just doesn't give us a choice of outcome. If we choose to follow a path in opposition to him, there is only one outcome. That is what we believe. If you don't want to believe that, that is up to you.



You left no room in your overall assessment of our beliefs to even provide a reason for an apology. You can't change the goalposts to justify posting things that are not true and then assume that what I said was false. We have no "hell"....period.

You need to check your facts before offering an opinion that has no connection to the truth. You seem to do this a lot. It is my request that you stop doing this.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know if liberalism or conservatism is doing it. This is due to Jehovah Witnesses insisting theirs is the true religion is my understanding.

I like what I said about not having prayer in public school going too far.

Sorry... I feel like I've already answered you.

I don't think you owe me any answers. I'm just saying I disagree.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
@stvdv

What Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to believe.

God's will is for the whole Earth to become a paradise like they believe it was for the real man the Bible calls Adam.

They believe all the words of the Bible are the real words of God and except for the practical matters of life, the Bible is all that a believer in God needs to know to serve God the right way. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

In the late 1800s, God chose a group of people who disagreed with mainstream Christianity for them to be the faithful and discreet slave which it is written would be assigned the task of teaching the people of the Earth God's will be done. Matthew 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

The people who will submit to the faithful and discreet slave are called sheep and the people who will not submit are called goats. The sheep will be granted everlasting life on the Earth and the goats will be destroyed. Matthew 25:31-46

They believe it is God's will that they convert people to their way. Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Their way is what the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses say it is. The men of the governing body search the scriptures for the wisdom to teach God's people and they trust that The Holy Spirit is with them. They also believe that Jesus is with them and only with them. They call what they teach 'eating at the table of Jehovah'. If anyone is not taking in the knowledge of the governing body the alternative is to eat at the table of demons.

The people who have had the opportunity to eat at their table of Jehovah but refuse to do so are guilty of a sin deserving death.

Now for the 144,000. They believe it is a definite number and that the total is made up of the people who were personally chosen by God even from the beginning of time and that they will exist with Jesus to judge the Earth. But, every one of them is a person who died after Jesus died.

Any number of other people who respect, trust, and obey the 144,000 and Jesus will gain the life which has been promised by God. The rest will be removed, but their removal will be as garbage is removed. They will all just perish forever.

Thank you for explaining in detail JW view. Good to hear this from an ex-insider who gives a clear objective view. I am happy to see you are not bitter, being able to write about it so objectively. Amazing. Your JW descriptions takes away the bad vibes I got from "D" about JW. Of course JW is still not my thing to follow, but I am glad you could give me a more positive picture of JW doctrine [HockeyCowboy also gave me a more positive feeling]. I don't like to feel negative about any religion/sect.

By you writing about it, now I understand when I get good vibes and when I get bad vibes. Good vibes I get when they give objective information without judging me in the process [my religion/feeling; my BeliefSystem/soul/spirit is most true to "what I really am", so attacking that I call "Ad Hominem" in the worst way. Others are free to attack me physically, emotionally, calling me names I don't care. But my "soul" is off limits].

Wauw, finally, your "positive and non judgmental way of replying" made it suddenly completely clear. Thanks a lot SavageWind [you feel to me more like SweetBreeze now] . This is what I felt all the time when others criticize my Believe System [soul level]. Below picture explains it well for me [I added red layer = soul myself]
GrahamDisagreement[SoulAdded]

You also answered my questions clearly about how JW see themselves in connection to other religions and the rest of the world. Very clear.

Thanks for the explanation of the number 144,000. I am glad I asked this, because this is first time I hear it this way. At least good to hear that many more will be saved than only the 144,000. Doom scenarios are not my thing.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not my definition. It's the dictionary definition, and it's not an insult. "Proselytizing' is just about attempting to teach and persuade. it doesn't become a horrible thing to do just because you don't like whatever it is that the proselytizer wants to convince you of.

I mean, really; the entire movie industry proselytes for liberalism. I can't remember the last time, for instance, that I saw a movie where the President of the United States (if fictional...and sometimes not then. Lincoln was a Republican, after all, and all the movies about him do like to forget that) was portrayed as a good guy if he was a Republican, or a bad guy if he was a Democrat. THAT is proselytizing. It's funny and obvious, and definitely proselytizing.

Everytime an atheist pipes up and argues that religion is a bad thing and should be outlawed in schools and in parades and on street corners, he's proselytizing.

.....and yeah, when a young Mormon missionary stands on the street corner handing out 'tracts' and talking to people, he's proselytizing. I don't see a problem with either person attempting to advance his point of view.
I think you are describing what it means to propagandize and I agree that it is what we do here.
It means to get others to think along the same line as whatever you are trying to prove to another honestly or dishonestly. :)


To proselytize means to get others to LIVE according to the same way you do.

Thinking is what some people do sometimes. Living is what all people do all the time.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I think you are describing what it means to propagandize and I agree that it is what we do here.
It means to get others to think along the same line as whatever you are trying to prove to another honestly or dishonestly. :)


To proselytize means to get others to LIVE according to the same way you do.

Nice distinction. I rather like it. However, I think propagandize is a bit stronger, usually by larger organizations and aimed at a larger audience...I think.

proselytize is more personal, perhaps? Quieter?

I don't know. nuances make my head ache. ;)

Thinking is what some people do sometimes. Living is what all people do all the time.

Harsh. Wish it weren't true. (grin)
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nice distinction. I rather like it. However, I think propagandize is a bit stronger, usually by larger organizations and aimed at a larger audience...I think.

proselytize is more personal, perhaps? Quieter?

I don't know. nuances make my head ache. ;)



Harsh. Wish it weren't true. (grin)
An awake person. Very good!
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nice distinction. I rather like it. However, I think propagandize is a bit stronger, usually by larger organizations and aimed at a larger audience...I think.

proselytize is more personal, perhaps? Quieter?

I don't know. nuances make my head ache. ;)

It is not true that usually larger organizations do it. It is common even in families. I am glad my husband finally decided to divorce me because his persistent propaganda at me might have finally been the death of me.

My definition of propaganda is this; a message, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a particular point of view. He would exaggerate my faults and instead of saying, "can I help you?" he would use angry insults at me even when the insult was not warranted at a particular time.

Gas-lighting is a type of propaganda people use to get their way or just to have some evil fun.

To proselytize means to advise another person that there is a better way to go with better people.
 
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