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the trinity

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is only 1 God.

John 4:24 says that the 1 God is a Spirit (Note it says a Spirit not 3 persons)

Ephesians 4:4 lets us know there is only 1 Spirit

In 1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul said that to us there is but 1 God - the Father

God is a Spirit and he is holy. He said in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Joel 2:

So the Holy Spirit is not another person - it is one and the same Spirit. Who was the Father in Matthew 1:18-20? She was found with child of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Father, not another person of the Godhead.

YHWH, The God of the old testament was a Spirit and didn't have blood to shed for man's sin. He looked out across the expanse of time, and saw that there would be no one without sin, to be that perfect sacrifice. He said My arm is not shortened, I will do it myself. He overshadowed the virgin Mary, and made himself a body. He was the Father of that body, so he could call it his son. But he dwelt in that body, and he sacrificed the fleshly body for the sins of the world. It wasn't another person, it was God himself dwelling in a fleshly body. The scripture says God was manifest in the flesh - he appeared in a body.

To wit or to know that God was in the Messiah reconciling the world to himself. 2 Corinthians 5:19

That's why the Messiah said things like, I and my Father are one. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father that dwelleth in me he does the works. John 14:7-10 Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

It wasn't that fleshly body doing the miracles, it was the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body that worked the miracles. It wasn't that fleshly body that was before Abraham, it was the Spirit dwelling in the body.

He was both Father and Son, the flesh was the son, and the eternal Spirit dwelling in the flesh was the Father, just like the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6 had said - Unto us a Son is given - He shall be called the Mighty God, and the everlasting Father.

There is a lot more proof,
but I will leave it at this for now. Hope this helps. If you have questions, please ask.
What you just spelled out above is a form of the Trinitarian concept.

In Catholicism, it's referred to as "the Mystery of the Trinity", namely that the exact relationship cannot be fully determined because our human minds are finite.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
What you just spelled out above is a form of the Trinitarian concept.

In Catholicism, it's referred to as "the Mystery of the Trinity", namely that the exact relationship cannot be fully determined because our human minds are finite.

I don't see that as what I said at all. But have a great day.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't see that as what I said at all. But have a great day.
Let me explain.

The minute one equates Jesus and the HS as being God in any way, that's Trinitarian. That's where it's derived from. The alternative, which is not Trinitarian, is not seeing Jesus and/or the HS as actually being divine in any way except for what they teach/influence. IOW, Jesus is just a real man with a divine message.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What you just spelled out above is a form of the Trinitarian concept.

In Catholicism, it's referred to as "the Mystery of the Trinity", namely that the exact relationship cannot be fully determined because our human minds are finite.

The statement is obvious and not meaningful in the context that all theist religions consider the ultimate nature of God is unknowable, nothing new here, and not an adequate explanation. I believe this a dodge and shell game to describe it as a mystery, because the description of the Trinity is specific and at the core of the beliefs of the Roman Church.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The statement is obvious and not meaningful in the context that all theist religions consider the ultimate nature of God is unknowable, nothing new here, and not an adequate explanation. I believe this a dodge and shell game to describe it as a mystery, because the description of the Trinity is specific and at the core of the beliefs of the Roman Church.
But when one looks at the documents in the 2nd through 4th century Church, this ambiguity is what you see. There was overall consensus, but not universal agreement, that Jesus was more than just a prophet or even an angel, but beyond that there was dispute as to exactly what was Jesus' nature vis-a-vis God.

Who covers this dispute quite well, imo, is Bart Ehrman in his book "How Jesus Became God", and he is not a Catholic.


BTW, let me just add to the above that most Christian denominations believe in the Trinity. Personally, as you may remember, I personally have no such belief.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Let me explain.

The minute one equates Jesus and the HS as being God in any way, that's Trinitarian. That's where it's derived from. The alternative, which is not Trinitarian, is not seeing Jesus and/or the HS as actually being divine in any way except for what they teach/influence. IOW, Jesus is just a real man with a divine message.


Sorry, but the Trinity is a doctrine where there are 3 separate distinct persons, that are each totally and completely God , and each person is not the other person, and yet supposedly there is only 1 God.

That is nothing like what I said. For instance, I said the Father is the Holy Spirit. It is one and the same Spirit, not 2 separate persons. I'm sorry if you aren't able to see the distinction in the beliefs.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Sorry, but the Trinity is a doctrine where there are 3 separate distinct persons, that are each totally and completely God , and each person is not the other person, and yet supposedly there is only 1 God.

That is nothing like what I said. For instance, I said the Father is the Holy Spirit. It is one and the same Spirit, not 2 separate persons.
But the Trinitarian concept does not say nor imply that they are "2 separate persons" but says that they are intertwined whereas all three are essentially Divine.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
But the Trinitarian concept does not say nor imply that they are "2 separate persons" but says that they are intertwined whereas all three are essentially Divine.
The Trinitarian concept does say that the trinity members are separate persons, because each has an indivdual "hypostasis" which means "a separate underlying reality or substance, as opposed to attributes."

Can it really be said that the Logos is "not" an attribute of God? Is not the Holy spirit also an attribute of the divinity? The philosphical definitions break down before the concept of the infinite.

For what is objectionable is not separate revelations of God, because after all, Christ was conceptually separate from the Father, as is the Holy Spirit conceptually separate when he does his work on earth, but separateness does not infer division, as the concept of "personhood" always does.

The concept of person when applied to divinity is the converse of what the bible teaches, which is that man is made in the image of God, not vice versa. Thus even if reverse anthropomorphism is practically useful when engaging with explicating God's actions and communications and judgements, when dealing with the "underlying reality of God," anthropomorphisms do not work well where the "hypostasis of God" is not altogether conceptually conceivable by men.

Thus God is defined in terms of himself. "I AM." To define "the persons of God" as having separate "hypostases" is very presumptuous, as we just have no knowledge of such things. Such words are meaningless from our point of view, because we do not know to what they refer. We know that Christ the man is the image of the hypostasis of God (Heb 1:3), but Christ the man has returned to God. What the bible also teaches is that Christ is not absorbed by the concept of God as there remains a hierarchy within God, Father Son Holy Spirit, but as to hypostasis, what man is presented with is a spiritual unity .

So as I see it, we must be careful not to go beyond the revelations, lest we try to be too clever and end up speaking of God as a pagan trinity. We should not fall into the trap of thinking that we can define God ourselves, when we can't. That would attract the charge of trying to exalt ourselves over God, a charge that is made of the man of sin 2 Thess 2 "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God..."

Is not such a thing typified in trying to philosophize the "hypostasis of God"?
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
But the Trinitarian concept does not say nor imply that they are "2 separate persons" but says that they are intertwined whereas all three are essentially Divine.

Any way you want to look at it - they have 3 Gods. They claim it is only 1 because they know that is what the scripture says, but they have 3. Look up the definition of the Trinity. They have the Son sitting on a throne, next to the Father. If they are separate persons, and both are God - well that's more than one God.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Is not such a thing typified in trying to philosophize the "hypostasis of God"?
Which is why Catholics use the terminology "Mystery of the Trinity", because it goes beyond human understanding, and if you were to go through the early writings of the Church you'd see how this discussion, with plenty of disagreements, went, and why the word "Mystery" is used as such. It's actually sort of a compromise word because there was no solid agreement, plus no strong emphasis on this relationship beyond that Jesus was of God in some way..

The best coverage on this that I have read comes from Bart Ehrman in his book "How Jesus Became God", as he goes through the various hypotheses on the interrelationship of Jesus and the HS vis-a-vis God, and Ehrman is not a Catholic.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Any way you want to look at it - they have 3 Gods. They claim it is only 1 because they know that is what the scripture says, but they have 3. Look up the definition of the Trinity. They have the Son sitting on a throne, next to the Father. If they are separate persons, and both are God - well that's more than one God.
The concept of the Trinity has always been known as the "Three in One" concept, so they simply are not, and have never been, viewed as being completely separate or being three gods. Here:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Greek τριάς and τριάδα, from Latin: trinus "threefold") holds that God is one but three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases-- the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios). -- Trinity - Wikipedia

I think a reasonably close analogy can be found in Hinduism, whereas there are various manifestations of Brahman (God), and yet there is only one God.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Which is why Catholics use the terminology "Mystery of the Trinity", because it goes beyond human understanding, and if you were to go through the early writings of the Church you'd see how this discussion, with plenty of disagreements, went, and why the word "Mystery" is used as such. It's actually sort of a compromise word because there was no solid agreement, plus no strong emphasis on this relationship beyond that Jesus was of God in some way..

The best coverage on this that I have read comes from Bart Ehrman in his book "How Jesus Became God", as he goes through the various hypotheses on the interrelationship of Jesus and the HS vis-a-vis God, and Ehrman is not a Catholic.
Ehrman does not need to be a Catholic, as the Trinity infects the daughter churches of Rome as much as Rome itself. Servetus called Calvin and the Pope antichrist. Wyclif only called the Pope antichrist. Wyclif did not understand that in the philosophy of the Trinity lay the Roman Church's power. It's called a mystery only to protect its theologians who cannot ultimately explain it. DIsbelief in the trinity is eternal damnation - even if one believed in Christ as the son of God. As some have said Servetus was put to death only for calling Jesus the son of God, not God the Son.

If what you say is true about the Trinity really being a mystery, it is the ultimate hypocrisy because despite being a "mystery" it or rather Justinian law which is based upon it has been used for putting many to death as heretics. Putting people to death on account of a mystery? How can the church of Rome escape judgement?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The concept of the Trinity has always been known as the "Three in One" concept, so they simply are not, and have never been, viewed as being completely separate or being three gods. Here:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Greek τριάς and τριάδα, from Latin: trinus "threefold") holds that God is one but three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases-- the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios). -- Trinity - Wikipedia

The description give describe the three persons (Gods) as distinct, which contradicts your first statement. This is the contradiction, and will always remain a problem that God in the Roman Church is a form of Tritheism (Polytheism) despite the denials of the Roman Church.

I think a reasonably close analogy can be found in Hinduism, whereas there are various manifestations of Brahman (God), and yet there is only one God.

Actually in Hinduism the comparison is not valid. There is ultimately only one unknowable Brahman, and there are lesser manifestation of the Brahman.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The description give describe the three persons (Gods) as distinct, which contradicts your first statement. This is the contradiction, and will always remain a problem that God in the Roman Church is a form of Tritheism (Polytheism) despite the denials of the Roman Church.
That's simply not true as Ehrman covers, plus one can read much the same in Hitchcock's "History of the Catholic Church".

The Eastern and Western church had different takes on this for one, but there were other takes as well. In Catholic theology, it is explained that it's beyond our mortal minds to understand this and that only if we get to heaven are we likely to finally know, which leaves me out. :(

Actually in Hinduism the comparison is not valid. There is ultimately only one unknowable Brahman, and there are lesser manifestation of the Brahman.
Which is why I said "reasonably close". The basic idea I was pointing to is that the Trinitarian concept shows three basic "manifestations" of God, but there are some differences as well since Jesus is also considered "true man".
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I did notice a verse, in the English translation, that changes the literal word, however, since this is not consistent, throughout Scripture, it could be assumed, it a matter of making the verse more specific, or such. The actual inference to the nature, of Jesus, ie that He is God, is translated literally, elsewhere.


If the intent were to change the inference of Scripture, the English translation, either did a bad job, at it, or did not consider the verses important, or direct, enough, to change, the literal word. This would be in the realm of speculation, and an argument against the English Bible. Directly, it is a sketchy argument, though.

That argument could be refuted at various places, as such,
/We note, for example, Hebrews 1:8. In the English Bible
Which is a direct statement, of the Father, calling Jesus, God.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
If I may :p

God is one spirit
Christ is one spirit
The holy spirit Is a spirit
They are connect=tri-nity (Tri-spirits work as one-nity)

@TrueBeliever37

There is only 1 God.

John 4:24 says that the 1 God is a Spirit
(Note it says a Spirit not 3 persons)

Ephesians 4:4 lets us know there is only 1 Spirit

In 1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul said that to us there is but 1 God - the Father

God is a Spirit and he is holy. He said in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Joel 2:

So the Holy Spirit is not another person - it is one and the same Spirit. Who was the Father in Matthew 1:18-20? She was found with child of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Father, not another person of the Godhead.

YHWH, The God of the old testament was a Spirit and didn't have blood to shed for man's sin. He looked out across the expanse of time, and saw that there would be no one without sin, to be that perfect sacrifice. He said My arm is not shortened, I will do it myself. He overshadowed the virgin Mary, and made himself a body. He was the Father of that body, so he could call it his son. But he dwelt in that body, and he sacrificed the fleshly body for the sins of the world. It wasn't another person, it was God himself dwelling in a fleshly body. The scripture says God was manifest in the flesh - he appeared in a body.

To wit or to know that God was in the Messiah reconciling the world to himself. 2 Corinthians 5:19

That's why the Messiah said things like, I and my Father (duality) are one. If you have seen me you have seen the Father (image of/connection/(duality)

The Father that dwelleth in me he does the works. John 14:7-10 Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

It wasn't that fleshly body doing the miracles, it was the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body that worked the miracles. It wasn't that fleshly body that was before Abraham, it was the Spirit dwelling in the body.

He was both Father and Son, the flesh was the son, and the eternal Spirit dwelling in the flesh was the Father, (trinity)

Just like the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6 had said - Unto us a Son is given - He shall be called the Mighty God, and the everlasting Father.

There is a lot more proof,
but I will leave it at this for now. Hope this helps. If you have questions, please ask.

Father (Job 4:17)
Son (Gospels)
Holy spirit (Judges 3:10-14; John 3:6-8)
Work together (2 Corinthians 13:14) aka Trinity

Please. Please. Disprove this. Then, I will let ex-trinitarians be.
 
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