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Is modern Christianity off track?

Is modern Christianity off track?

  • No, my church is right, etc

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
God is a personal name that is also used for Hebraic names of God. It is not a title being used as a name. God has more than one name, or title, and the English usage of God, as a name, conforms to the Hebraic usage.

No! That is not correct. A title is never a substitute for anyone's name, let alone the unique name of the Supreme God. Jehovah reveals his own name in the Bible. This is not a name given to him by men, but one he gave to Moses in Exodus 3:13-15. His name is יְהֹוָ֞ה (YHWH in Hebrew...Yahweh, Jehovah in English.)

From Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 3 (Parshah Shemot)

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"

14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי


The Jewish tradition of not uttering the Divine Name changed the way those verses read in English.
In Verse 15 where it says "The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."... if you look at the Hebrew you will clearly see God's name, יְהֹוָ֞ה

Verse 14 gives the meaning... (I Will Be What I Will Be)...אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה
And verse 15 gives us his personal name....Jehovah.... יְהֹוָ֞ה
Notice that God says that this is his name "forever"...to be used in every generation.....what happened to that?

Psalm 83:18...And they know that Thou -- (Thy name [is] Jehovah -- by Thyself,) [Art] the Most High over all the earth! (YLT)

KJV..."18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth."

Hollman..."May they know that You alone—whose name is Yahweh—are the Most High over all the earth."

Many Bible translations have stayed true to the Hebrew text and not replaced God's personal name with a title in some verses.
That would be tantamount to an established and well known human author having their own name on their published work substituted with the word "Author". How insulting!

The true God has always placed his name on his people. Even after Jesus pronounced sentence on the corrupted Jewish religion....."Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15:14)

God will associate his name with those who are faithful to him. He will strip it from those who don't treat it with due respect. That respect does not involve violating his command with a superstition.

Jehovah has only one name but many titles. Judaism took the Divine Name away from her people and they never anticipated what that would mean for themselves and others to come. (Matthew 23:37-39)

Therefore, the question, still stands, why do you use a "pagan" origin name for deity? I know why I use God as a name, but the question is, do you use God as a name, and if so, why.

The use of God's name is displayed throughout the Hebrew scriptures, some 7,000 times in fact. It is used hundreds of times just in the Psalms alone. God's pre-Christian servants used it often and with great reverence.....so should we if we know the God who is attached inextricably to his name and what it means.

Jesus said..."I have revealed Your name to the men You gave Me from the world." (John 17:6)

John 17:11....."I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name that You have given Me"

John 17:26....."I made Your name known to them and will make it known, so the love You have loved Me with
may be in them and I may be in them."


In the Lord's Prayer, what is the first thing Jesus said?....."Our Father who art in heaven hallowed by thy name".

Are you getting the sense that God's name is important? The scriptures could not be clearer.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Why would the Church even make Christianity spread if they were pagan at heart?
At Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus' words reveal a lot that can explain this.

Apparently, these leaders think Jesus is backing them.

Consider: if Jesus denounced these ones, then obviously, they wouldn't have his power -- or his Father's, of course. So the question is, from whom would they get this authority to perform these "powerful works"?

The devil is a Great Deceiver. Google "steeples on churches". The origin of those things may shock you! And everbody thinks they're a holy icon.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
You don't seem to understand the agenda at work here. Jesus warned that the devil would produce a counterfeit "Christianity" that would take people away from the worship of the true God. Its how he gains worship for himself, because what is taken away from God, goes to him by default. He is the only other real "god" in existence but he masquerades as any number of them. He goes by all sorts of names in all sorts of religions instituted by his dupes.....he doesn't care how he subverts worship, as long as it doesn't go to Jehovah.
If that was the case there still doesn't seem any point to dismantling paganism with a new religion. You know if they didn't spread it, we'd not have even heard of Christ.

The buildings that the first Christians used for worship were rather humble. There is a reason why the Temple that was destroyed in Jerusalem was never rebuilt. It was no longer needed for God's worshippers once the Messiah had fulfilled his role. The temple and priesthood were pictorial of heavenly things. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)
Most religions start that way. When rich and powerful join, they get more impressive as time goes by.

The Pope lives in a gold inlaid palace with servants...when did Jesus do that? When did Jesus ignore the poor to give undue attention to the rich and fraternize with world leaders? (James 4:4) Jesus' lifestyle was just the opposite of what Christendom displays. (Matthew 8:20)
Still doesn't answer why you would distmantle pagan institutions, get the bible in books and spread that new religion.

The Pharisees were the biggest hypocrites on the planet according to Jesus. Read his denunciation at Matthew 23 and see why Jesus exposed them.
As far as I can tell they started out as people criticizing how pagan their country was becoming and criticizing outside influences.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If that was the case there still doesn't seem any point to dismantling paganism with a new religion. You know if they didn't spread it, we'd not have even heard of Christ.

If you understand that there are only two kinds of religion in the world from God's perspective...true worship, directed to the true God and practiced according to his rules....and false worship directed by the pretender, then you will understand that if the devil can get people to think that they are worshipping God in the right way and to behave in a way that offends him, he has accomplished his mission.....he has subverted their faith by creating a counterfeit version of it. These are the ones mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23....

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

Jesus likened his followers to sheep in a flock, with him as their shepherd. Satan is stealing sheep who think they belong to Jesus, and claiming them for himself. Its the deception that is his stock in trade.

The clue is is his words...."I never knew you"...."Never" means "not ever". Since the formation of Christendom and her defection from the true teachings of Christ, Jesus has never acknowledged Christendom as real Christianity. There is a long list as to why....

Most religions start that way. When rich and powerful join, they get more impressive as time goes by.

Christianity is the antithesis of a materialistic lifestyle. We are supposed to be content with sustenance and covering....(1 Timothy 6:8)....a far cry from the world's standard of materialism. We are supposed to help our brothers, not glorify ourselves at their expense.

1 John 2:15-17.... "Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world. 17 Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever." (NABRE)

Do you see what is to be avoided? "The world and its enticements" are to 'pass away'...but those who do the will of God "remain"...they stay, whilst the unfaithful along with this wicked world are dispatched.

Still doesn't answer why you would distmantle pagan institutions, get the bible in books and spread that new religion.

As explained above.....yes it does. Its the battle of good against evil....God against the devil....true worship over false worship. There will only be one winner, and we already know who it is. Who would choose the losing side....unless you thought it was the winning side?
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As far as I can tell they started out as people criticizing how pagan their country was becoming and criticizing outside influences.

By the time Jesus came to John to be baptized, the Jews had been under Roman domination for almost 100 years....God had sent his last prophet Malachi to correct his wayward people over 400 years before. Jesus certainly did not paint the Jewish leaders in a good light. They had never accepted correction graciously. They were chafing under Roman rule and expecting their Messiah to come and liberate them and establish his Kingdom on earth. Jesus was nothing like what they expected....so they rejected him. As God's final prophet, Jesus was sent to gather the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". The parable that Jesus gave foretells what the Jews were going to do....(Read Luke 20:9-19)
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Btw the concept of heresy is very relative. The word heresy means "choice", so I think each choice should be respected.

Problems arise when you make a religion more and more dogmatic (as Augustine did) and less pragmatic.
Well put, and I add did not Jesus in the gospels rebuke his disciples for their heated disagreements? What does James say to do? He says our quarrels come from evil motivations, and hasn't that been demonstrated enough times in church history? Why continue to exclude those who do not agree about the trinity or about the nature of atonement or icons or wine vs grape juice or dunking versus sprinkling. I think both the gospels and James would rebuke such arguing as petty. When christ touches a leper he does not become unclean, but instead the leper is cleansed. Then I hear another witness who declares "Who are you to judge another man's servant," but we claim to do it out of love. Doing so out of love is as impossible as salt water from a fresh spring. With the same tongue we bless God but curse men, and that ought not to happen. The other day Tumah commented on how condescending it seemed for one christian to make it their business to correct anothers doctrines. To stop doing so is not easy however. Sometimes it feels so important, but it the opposite is true. If we love our brother we ought to listen instead of trying to correct them.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
No! That is not correct. A title is never a substitute for anyone's name, let alone the unique name of the Supreme God.
Hence everytime you use the name God to refer to JHVH, you are contradicting yourself. And God is a name, it is a name, and name/title, that correlates to the Hebraic usage,, name and name /title. Whether you believe that it is correct to use God as a name, is a separate argument from what it actually is, means, and how it is used.
Jehovah reveals his own name in the Bible. This is not a name given to him by men, but one he gave to Moses in Exodus 3:13-15. His name is יְהֹוָ֞ה (YHWH in Hebrew...Yahweh, Jehovah in English.)
The reason why JHVH is translated as Lord, is because it is another name, /according to the one God concept, of the text, of God. This follows the differentiation of the names, and makes it clear which name is being used. JHVH Elohim, is used in the same manner, theologically speaking, in the text, and would be an unnecessary repetition according to your theory.

From Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 3 (Parshah Shemot)

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"

14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי


The Jewish tradition of not uttering the Divine Name changed the way those verses read in English.
In Verse 15 where it says "The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."... if you look at the Hebrew you will clearly see God's name, יְהֹוָ֞ה

Verse 14 gives the meaning... (I Will Be What I Will Be)...אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה
And verse 15 gives us his personal name....Jehovah.... יְהֹוָ֞ה
Notice that God says that this is his name "forever"...to be used in every generation.....what happened to that?

Psalm 83:18...And they know that Thou -- (Thy name [is] Jehovah -- by Thyself,) [Art] the Most High over all the earth! (YLT)

KJV..."18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth."

Hollman..."May they know that You alone—whose name is Yahweh—are the Most High over all the earth."

Many Bible translations have stayed true to the Hebrew text and not replaced God's personal name with a title in some verses.
That would be tantamount to an established and well known human author having their own name on their published work substituted with the word "Author". How insulting!

You're contradicting yourself everytime you use God in the usage of a name, and not just a title. Titles alone need specification, otherwise they could mean many things, in this context. If you believe the text literally reads that vaguely, that is your belief, but it makes no sense, and you could not even know which god is being referred to, in order to present your argument with any evidence. You are using God as a name, without even realizing it, in other words.

The true God has always placed his name on his people. Even after Jesus pronounced sentence on the corrupted Jewish religion....."Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15:14)

God will associate his name with those who are faithful to him. He will strip it from those who don't treat it with due respect. That respect does not involve violating his command with a superstition.



Jehovah has only one name but many titles. Judaism took the Divine Name away from her people and they never anticipated what that would mean for themselves and others to come. (Matthew 23:37-39)




The use of God's name is displayed throughout the Hebrew scriptures, some 7,000 times in fact. It is used hundreds of times just in the Psalms alone. God's pre-Christian servants used it often and with great reverence.....so should we if we know the God who is attached inextricably to his name and what it means.

Jesus said..."I have revealed Your name to the men You gave Me from the world." (John 17:6)

John 17:11....."I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name that You have given Me"

John 17:26....."I made Your name known to them and will make it known, so the love You have loved Me with
may be in them and I may be in them."


In the Lord's Prayer, what is the first thing Jesus said?....."Our Father who art in heaven hallowed by thy name".

According to your theory, Jesus should have used JHVH, or Yahweh, in that prayer. Yet He doesn't, He teaches to use 'our father'.

Are you getting the sense that God's name is important? The scriptures could not be clearer.

You're argument contradicts Scripture; instead of clarity, you have a name and title mix up that makes Scripture a vague, contradictory, and completely subjective text, relating to God's names and their usage.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hence everytime you use the name God to refer to JHVH, you are contradicting yourself. And God is a name, it is a name, and name/title, that correlates to the Hebraic usage,, name and name /title. Whether you believe that it is correct to use God as a name, is a separate argument from what it actually is, means, and how it is used.

Did the Bible writers refer to God both by his name and by his title?
"God" is what he is...."Jehovah" is who he is. It isn't just a handle....it is a statement of his intention to "Be" whatever he needs to be in any given situation to accomplish his purpose.

Because of free will, Jehovah will not preempt our decisions, but allows us the freedom to make our choices, then he responds to them, living up to the meaning of his name.

By the use of a capital letter, we make known which "god" we are referring to. In the Bible satan is called a god, but always with no capital letter. Jesus called human judges "gods" but he was certainly NOT elevating their status to Jehovah's level. He called them "gods" because of their divine authority to judge his people on his behalf. (John 10:31-36; Psalm 82:1)

The reason why JHVH is translated as Lord, is because it is another name, /according to the one God concept, of the text, of God. This follows the differentiation of the names, and makes it clear which name is being used. JHVH Elohim, is used in the same manner, theologically speaking, in the text, and would be an unnecessary repetition according to your theory.

Do you understand why the designation "Lord" is not a name either? In Israel, when they fell to worshipping "Baal", this god was nameless because "Baal" simply means "Lord".
Muslims worship "Allah" which also means "Lord"....so those who worship a nameless "Lord" could unwittingly be serving the "god" of this world...(2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Using God's personal name separates him from false gods, invented by satan....even the false trinitarian god worshipped by Christendom.

The Jews who stopped speaking the Divine Name did not have any command from Jehovah to do so. 7,000 substitutions when reading the Hebrew Scriptures was unauthorized and later caused the situation where the "Sovereign Lord Jehovah" came to be confused with the "Lord Jesus Christ". Christendom could never have created it's incomprehensible trinity if the Divine Name had remained in use and been used in Christian scripture.

According to your theory, Jesus should have used JHVH, or Yahweh, in that prayer. Yet He doesn't, He teaches to use 'our father'.

On one occasion, Jesus stood up in a synagogue and read a portion of the scroll of Isaiah.
The section he read was from Isaiah 61:1, 2....

"The spirit of the Lord God was upon me, since the Lord anointed me to bring tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to declare freedom for the captives, and for the prisoners to free from captivity.

אר֛וּחַ אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִ֖ה עָלָ֑י יַ֡עַן מָשַׁח֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֹתִ֜י לְבַשֵּׂ֣ר עֲנָוִ֗ים שְׁלָחַ֙נִי֙ לַֽחֲבֹ֣שׁ לְנִשְׁבְּרֵי־לֵ֔ב לִקְרֹ֚א לִשְׁבוּיִם֙ דְּר֔וֹר וְלַֽאֲסוּרִ֖ים פְּקַח־קֽוֹחַ
:

To declare a year of acceptance for the Lord and a day of vengeance for our God, to console all mourners.

בלִקְרֹ֚א שְׁנַת־רָצוֹן֙ לַֽיהֹוָ֔ה וְי֥וֹם נָקָ֖ם לֵֽאלֹהֵ֑ינוּ לְנַחֵ֖ם כָּל־אֲבֵלִֽים:"


God’s name appears in those verses. (Luke 4:16-21) Would Jesus have refused to pronounce the divine name there, substituting “Lord” or “God”? That would have meant following the unscriptural tradition of the Jewish religious leaders. Rather, we read: “He was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes.” (Matthew 7:29) And he said he had come to make his Father's name known to a people who had abandoned the use of it.

You're argument contradicts Scripture; instead of clarity, you have a name and title mix up that makes Scripture a vague, contradictory, and completely subjective text, relating to God's names and their usage.

It does not contradict scripture at all unless you twist scripture like the Scribes and Pharisees did.

After the 10 plagues of Egypt, God said to Pharaoh...."For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth. 16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth."

The use of God's personal name brings clarity....having more than one "Lord" is confusing.
If you use God's name in all the Hebrew scripture that is quoted in the NT, there is no confusion as to which "Lord" is being addressed. A trinity could never have developed from the "one God" of Israel. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I always thought that The Trinity was God unified in 3 persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They being one God because they are unified in one truth.

I remember in Genesis somewhere in the kjv, it says,' Let us make man in our image. '

That image being represented by body, soul, and spirit. Or also, heart, mind, and will. I suspect the number 3 is very important to Christianity.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Sure, in the sense that you have wishy-washy liberal relativists who are eviserating the faith to make it palatable to modern Western culture on one hand, and judgemental hateful hypocrites who are pretty much chasing people out of church in droves on the other hand.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The other day Tumah commented on how condescending it seemed for one christian to make it their business to correct anothers doctrines. To stop doing so is not easy however. Sometimes it feels so important, but it the opposite is true. If we love our brother we ought to listen instead of trying to correct them.

Since Jesus will judge every one of us, and he corrected the Pharisees' erroneous teachings at every opportunity, (even calling them "leaven" as an agent of corruption...Matthew 16:6; 11,12) if we are allowed to go on our merry way and believe whatever appeals to us, why would Jesus commission his disciples to preach? That preaching was a correction of the Jewish understanding about the Messiah and his Kingdom. He was correcting his own people....members of his own faith. His teachings left for us in the gospels keep doing that....but only for those who have a humble heart and an open mind....the "right soil" for the seed of truth to grow. (Matthew 13:1-9)

If correction was not important, why did Jesus do it?

Why will he judge some, whom he calls "workers of lawlessness" as those he "never knew" if he didn't give them opportunity to hear the truth and respond to it? He had to first inform them of what that "lawlessness" was so that they could make decisions about it. (Matthew 7:21-23) Obviously some practice a form of "Christianity" that is acceptable to them, but not acceptable to our judge....wouldn't we want to know we were on the wrong track so that we could correct our steps? :shrug:

The old story is true...."you can lead a horse to water...." its up to us whether we want to drink or not.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Did the Bible writers refer to God both by his name and by his title?

You mean name/titles. Yes, many times.
"God" is what he is...."Jehovah" is who he is. It isn't just a handle....it is a statement of his intention to "Be" whatever he needs to be in any given situation to accomplish his purpose.
That's incorrect, God is who He is, and JHVH is one of His names.

Because of free will, Jehovah will not preempt our decisions, but allows us the freedom to make our choices, then he responds to them, living up to the meaning of his name.

By the use of a capital letter, we make known which "god" we are referring to. In the Bible satan is called a god, but always with no capital letter. Jesus called human judges "gods" but he was certainly NOT elevating their status to Jehovah's level. He called them "gods" because of their divine authority to judge his people on his behalf. (John 10:31-36; Psalm 82:1)

No, the capital letter usage is an unnecessary and actually problematic invention, because it makes the names differentiated, where they shouldn't be. In the NT, the capital letter usage literally makes it theologically problematic in a way, that which the reader may have no idea what deity is being referred to.



Do you understand why the designation "Lord" is not a name either? In Israel, when they fell to worshipping "Baal", this god was nameless because "Baal" simply means "Lord".
Muslims worship "Allah" which also means "Lord"....so those who worship a nameless "Lord" could unwittingly be serving the "god" of this world...(2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Using God's personal name separates him from false gods, invented by satan....even the false trinitarian god worshipped by Christendom.
Using God's names incorrectly makes the Bible an obscure and contradictory text. JHVH, is a name, Elohim, is a name. Both are names of God, hence JHVH Elohim is using two names. The reason why JHVH is translated as Lord, is because it is a name in the pluralistic name grouping, yet specific. This does not mean that God has no other names.

The Jews who stopped speaking the Divine Name did not have any command from Jehovah to do so. 7,000 substitutions when reading the Hebrew Scriptures was unauthorized and later caused the situation where the "Sovereign Lord Jehovah" came to be confused with the "Lord Jesus Christ". Christendom could never have created it's incomprehensible trinity if the Divine Name had remained in use and been used in Christian scripture.





On one occasion, Jesus stood up in a synagogue and read a portion of the scroll of Isaiah.
The section he read was from Isaiah 61:1, 2....

"The spirit of the Lord God was upon me, since the Lord anointed me to bring tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to declare freedom for the captives, and for the prisoners to free from captivity.

אר֛וּחַ אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִ֖ה עָלָ֑י יַ֡עַן מָשַׁח֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֹתִ֜י לְבַשֵּׂ֣ר עֲנָוִ֗ים שְׁלָחַ֙נִי֙ לַֽחֲבֹ֣שׁ לְנִשְׁבְּרֵי־לֵ֔ב לִקְרֹ֚א לִשְׁבוּיִם֙ דְּר֔וֹר וְלַֽאֲסוּרִ֖ים פְּקַח־קֽוֹחַ
:

To declare a year of acceptance for the Lord and a day of vengeance for our God, to console all mourners.

בלִקְרֹ֚א שְׁנַת־רָצוֹן֙ לַֽיהֹוָ֔ה וְי֥וֹם נָקָ֖ם לֵֽאלֹהֵ֑ינוּ לְנַחֵ֖ם כָּל־אֲבֵלִֽים:"


God’s name appears in those verses. (Luke 4:16-21) Would Jesus have refused to pronounce the divine name there, substituting “Lord” or “God”? That would have meant following the unscriptural tradition of the Jewish religious leaders. Rather, we read: “He was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes.” (Matthew 7:29) And he said he had come to make his Father's name known to a people who had abandoned the use of it.

And yet you constantly use God as a name, since you don't understand that God is a name, and a name title.



It does not contradict scripture at all unless you twist scripture like the Scribes and Pharisees did.

Of course it contradicts Scripture. The texts don't even make sense with your methodology.

After the 10 plagues of Egypt, God said to Pharaoh...."For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth. 16 But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth."

The use of God's personal name brings clarity....having more than one "Lord" is confusing.

Except that your methodology uses a subjective understanding, that can be interpreted in any number of ways. It does not offer clarity.
If you use God's name in all the Hebrew scripture that is quoted in the NT, there is no confusion as to which "Lord" is being addressed. A trinity could never have developed from the "one God" of Israel. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

That is incorrect methodology, no matter what your personal beliefs are. They used 'God' where it means either the pluralistic name/ titles, or the name , and they used 'Lord' when it meant JHVH.

Titles or word usage like 'false god', or Ba'al, the lord Ba'al, are contextual, no different from 'the god Thor', or what not.

Lord is used contextually to mean Jesus, and your personal belief that Jesus is not God, really isn't my problem, or a Scriptural problem. Lord is read to mean the same as LORD, as intended; ie the Godhead, pluralistic singular 'God', / Here, God is a name/title.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I always thought that The Trinity was God unified in 3 persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They being one God because they are unified in one truth.

There is one God in the Hebrew Scriptures, who has one name that distinguishes him from all the false gods invented by men. Monotheism does not allow God to become a three way split personality. There is no trinity in the Bible...it was invented by an apostate church centuries after Jesus and the apostles died.

I remember in Genesis somewhere in the kjv, it says,' Let us make man in our image. '

Yes, in Genesis Jehovah is speaking to the one who was used as the agent of creation...his beloved son.
The apostle Paul wrote of Jesus...."He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

Jehovah is the Creator and Jesus (in his pre-human state) used the raw materials that his Father brought into existence to fashion all things in heaven, in the universe and on earth. (Proverbs 8:30-3; John 1:2-4)

That image being represented by body, soul, and spirit. Or also, heart, mind, and will. I suspect the number 3 is very important to Christianity.

Nowhere in scripture will you find God described that way. Humans are sometimes described that way, but God isn't. Jesus never once said he was God.....nor did he ever tell anyone to worship him.
Christendom will use these analogies to support their trinity. To place Jesus on equal footing with the Father is to violate the first commandment. (Exodus 20:3) Nowhere in scripture is the holy spirit ever called God either.

Jehovah is not a "soul"...humans and animals are. The word in Hebrew is only ever used to describe a living, breathing creature...never a disembodied spirit.

Numbers are often used in the scriptures symbolically. The number six represents imperfection and is used often to refer to matters of Satan and his organization of wicked spirits and humans. e.g. The number of Satan’s wild-beastlike organization on earth is "six hundred sixty and six", or three multiples of six, and characterizes its imperfection and wickedness (Revelation 13:18).
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
God is who He is, and JHVH is one of His names.

Jehovah has no other names...he just has titles. Titles are not names any more than "President" is a name.
If you attach a name to the President then people know who you mean.

No, the capital letter usage is an unnecessary and actually problematic invention, because it makes the names differentiated, where they shouldn't be. In the NT, the capital letter usage literally makes it theologically problematic in a way, that which the reader may have no idea what deity is being referred to.

The capital letter differentiates a "god" from "the God". In Greek there are no capital letters or punctuation. There is no indefinite article either ("a" or "an") there is only a definite article ("the") so when referring to the God of Israel, the Greeks had to use the definite article to distinguish "a god" from "the God".
John 1:1 is a classic example of this.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is how it is rendered in most modern Bibles....but in the Greek there were no capitals to distinguish "a god" from "the God" so let's read it in Greek and see what happens....

In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.

Note the use of the definite article "ho" (the) in this verse.
Understanding that "ho logos" (the Word) was with "ho theos" (THE God") and that "ho Logos" was "theos" without being "ho theos" makes a difference in its rendering. Some translations simply say that "the Word was divine". It is possible for Jesus then to be "divine" but not "The God".

The word "theos" was used for any "divine mighty one"...including Jehovah because that is what it meant. In Greek polytheism, all their gods had names...but collectively were simply called "the gods". Without the Divine name, it is too easy to mix "the Lord Jesus" up with his Father. If God's name had remained in use that scripture would have read....

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah, and the Word was divine.".....and it would have conveyed the exact meaning.

To his Jewish audience, Jesus even confessing to be "the Son of God" was considered blasphemy! Imagine what they would have said if he claimed to be God!? (John 10:32-36) No devout Jew would have followed him.

Using God's names incorrectly makes the Bible an obscure and contradictory text. JHVH, is a name, Elohim, is a name. Both are names of God, hence JHVH Elohim is using two names. The reason why JHVH is translated as Lord, is because it is a name in the pluralistic name grouping, yet specific. This does not mean that God has no other names.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia explains what took place some time after the Jews returned from their Babylonian exile in the sixth century B.C.E. It says: “The name Yahweh [the Tetragrammaton with vowels added] began to be considered with special reverence, and the practice arose of substituting for it the word ADONAI [Lord] or ELOHIM [God]. . . . The practice led in time to forgetfulness of the proper pronunciation of the name Yahweh.” Thus, people stopped using God’s name. Eventually, the exact ancient pronunciation was lost and the divine name became ineffable to them.

"Elohim" simply means "God" and "Adonai" means "Lord"...neither of them are "names" but titles substituted for the Divine Name.

Christendom does not acknowledge God's name because they have substituted Jesus for God the Father.....something Jesus would never have sanctioned. He did all things for the glory of his Father, not himself.
Not once in all of the NT is Jesus called "God the Son" and the holy spirit is never called "God" at all.

And yet you constantly use God as a name, since you don't understand that God is a name, and a name title.

If I spoke of an American "President" which one would I mean? The one that is President now or a long list of former Presidents? The title describes the position not the individual who occupies the office. Understand?

The apostle Paul said...."Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 RS)

Who was the "one God" that Paul spoke of? Not Jesus because he is mentioned separately.

Of course it contradicts Scripture. The texts don't even make sense with your methodology.

The only reason they don't make sense is because you subscribe to the teachings of Christendom, which is not true Christianity. It is the "weeds" that Jesus warned about. (Matthew 13:37-43) The truth agrees with the whole Bible....not misinterpreted parts of the NT. No Jews believed that God was a trinity.....Jesus was Jewish and he was the one who taught us about his Father saying that it was to "him alone" that worship was to be directed. (Luke 4:8)

Lord is used contextually to mean Jesus, and your personal belief that Jesus is not God, really isn't my problem, or a Scriptural problem, if Lord is read to mean the same as LORD, as intended, ie the Godhead, pluralistic singular 'God', / Here, God is a name/title.

I believe that you have been horribly misled.....but you are free to worship whomever you wish. It is apparent that my God is not your God. So who is Jesus' God, even in heaven? (Revelation 3:12)
 
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osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Jehovah has no other names...he just has titles. Titles are not names any more than "President" is a name.
If you attach a name to the President then people know who you mean.



The capital letter differentiates a "god" from "the God". In Greek there are not capital letters or punctuation. There is no indefinite article either ("a" or "an") there is only a definite article ("the") so when referring to the God of Israel, the Greeks had to use the definite article to distinguish "a god" from "the God".
John 1:1 is a classic example of this.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is how it is rendered in most modern Bibles....but in the Greek there were no capitals to distinguish "a god" from "the God" so let's read it in Greek and see what happens....

In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.

Note the use of the definite article "ho" (the) in this verse.
Understanding that "ho logos" (the Word) was with "ho theos" (THE God") and that "ho Logos" was "theos" without being "ho theos" makes a difference in its rendering. Some translations simply say that "the Word was divine". It is possible for Jesus then to be "divine" but not "The God".

The word "theos" was used for any "divine mighty one"...including Jehovah because that is what it meant. In Greek polytheism, all their gods had names...but collectively were simply called "the gods". Without the Divine name, it is too easy to mix "the Lord Jesus" up with his Father. If God's name had remained in use that scripture would have read....

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah, and the Word was divine.".....and it would have conveyed the exact meaning.

To his Jewish audience, Jesus even confessing to be "the Son of God" was considered blasphemy! Imagine what they would have said if he claimed to be God!? (John 10:32-36) No devout Jew would have followed him.



The New Catholic Encyclopedia explains what took place some time after the Jews returned from their Babylonian exile in the sixth century B.C.E. It says: “The name Yahweh [the Tetragrammaton with vowels added] began to be considered with special reverence, and the practice arose of substituting for it the word ADONAI [Lord] or ELOHIM [God]. . . . The practice led in time to forgetfulness of the proper pronunciation of the name Yahweh.” Thus, people stopped using God’s name. Eventually, the exact ancient pronunciation was lost and the divine name became ineffable to them.

"Elohim" simply means "God" and "Adonai" means "Lord"...neither of them are "names" but titles substituted for the Divine Name.

Christendom does not acknowledge God's name because they have substituted Jesus for God the Father.....something Jesus would never have sanctioned. He did all things for the glory of his Father, not himself.
Not once in all of the NT is Jesus called "God the Son" and the holy spirit is never called "God" at all.



If I spoke of an American "President" which one would I mean? The one that is President now or a long list of former Presidents? The title describes the position not the individual who occupies the office. Understand?

The apostle Paul said...."Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 RS)

Who was the "one God" that Paul spoke of? Not Jesus because he is mentioned separately.



The only reason they don't make sense is because you subscribe to the teachings of Christendom, which is not true Christianity. It is the "weeds" that Jesus warned about. (Matthew 13:37-43) The truth agrees with the whole Bible....not misinterpreted parts of the NT. No Jews believed that God was a trinity.....Jesus was Jewish and he was the one who taught us about his Father saying that it was to "him alone" that worship was to be directed. (Luke 4:8)



I believe that you have been horribly misled.....but you are free to worship whomever you wish. It is apparent that my God is not your God. So who is Jesus' God, even in heaven? (Revelation 3:12)

What version of the Bible do you read from again?

NIV?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Do you understand why the designation "Lord" is not a name either? In Israel, when they fell to worshipping "Baal", this god was nameless because "Baal" simply means "Lord".
Muslims worship "Allah" which also means "Lord"....so those who worship a nameless "Lord" could unwittingly be serving the "god" of this world...(2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Your methodology would mean that

Matthew 1:20

Could or should mean angel of Ba'al, so forth

It does not contradict scripture at all unless you twist scripture like the Scribes and Pharisees did.

My reading /interpretation of Scripture requires no revision, at all. That is your problem.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What version of the Bible do you read from again?

NIV?

I use a variety of translations from https://www.biblegateway.com

Using a variety of translations and comparing the renderings with The Hebrew Bible at https://www.chabad.org/library/bible and comparing what I read with Strongs Concordance makes for some interesting research. https://www.blueletterbible.org

I also love the NWT published by JW's because God's name has been restored to all the places where it has been substituted. Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Have you studied the Bible in depth? Its a wonderful journey of discovery. :)
 
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