no hell

[Katzpur]

It was a poor attempt of seeing it differently.

I see only death as certain; life is not. We see people live one day and though healthy die the next. I almost got hit by two cars by inches but then someone who has no illness nor crossing the wrong street dies the next day. I honestly see it as taking life for granted.

Okay, I see what you mean. Yes, death is definitely certain, but so is life, at least while we're here. But, as you pointed out, the circumstances of our lives can change drastically within a split second, so we can never take for granted the good things we have.

If I said to god, "hey, I know you offer me eternal life, family, and good means of living but I rather live how I am now because through my suffering and Knowledge of death, I live a purposeful life" and say, "I cant see that in what you give...."

Id see that as coming to god and saying I truely found purpose elsewhere, and thats my honest approach.

Why would god see it as a disadvantage for me to go away from him if it were in the best interest of my wellbeing and not just his? (Edit)

My feelings are, and have been for a very very long time, that some people are simply predisposed to believing in God and that others simply aren't. I don't think God needs us to love Him or believe in Him for His well-being, and I don't think for one minute that non-belief in God is going to make God say, "Okay, I'll show you! It's off to Hell for you. That'll teach you not to believe in me." I feel that I am a better person because of my belief in God and because I am convinced that my best efforts at living a good life are important to Him. It's not so much about what I'm able to accomplish but where I set my sights and how committed I am to being a better person when I die than I was when I was old enough to make my first wrong choice.

 

[Milton Platt]

I agree. The doctrine of hell comes with an assumption that it is entirely the individual's decision to be sent to hell, and that God only passes the judgement that the individual has decreed for him/her self. So it's nothing to do with God's sadism but man's responsibility.

Come on....nobody decides they want to be tortured. That is a ridiculous statement. And when it comes to responsibility, the responsibility of the outcome of any system lays at the feet of the person, or god, who designed the system to work that way.

 

[InChrist]

But part of "the information they have" is that God didn't see fit to stop the rapist/murderer/thief/whatnot. Apparently, it aligns with God's plan. Who are we to second-guess God, right?

No, that is not part of the information. The only information police officers have is that rape, murder, and thief is against the law and their job is to enforce the law.

 

[InChrist]

I'm sorry, but if God COULD give a serial child killer a heart attack before they kill an additional 18 kids and chooses not to, then clearly God DOES want those additional children to die. You claim that He wants them to die because of some 'big picture'. If God's big picture requires the death of those children and God wants the big picture to come to pass then clearly God DOES want those children dead. And if that's the case then God also WANTS the serial killer to behave in the cruel and immoral manner in which he does. After all, if the killer suddenly changed heart after killing only 2 of the 20 children and God's big picture REQUIRES that all 20 children die in such a horrible manner, then by ignoring his desire to kill those additional children he would somehow thwart God's plan for the big picture.

The reality is that this world is full of harmful evil perpetuated by human beings toward one another, including the murder of children, which by the way includes abortion. If God were to intervene and take everyone out who commits any kind of evil, not too many people would be here, including all the offspring who would never be born due to the fact that their parents or grandparents had heart attacks, as you suggest is the answer. At present, God is allowing humanity this temporary time to choose good... or reject good which results in harming self and others. Eternal life is God's goal. All children who die young are safe and alive for eternity, but woe to those who have harmed them.

Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Luke 17:1-2

 

[InChrist]

Come on....nobody decides they want to be tortured. That is a ridiculous statement. And when it comes to responsibility, the responsibility of the outcome of any system lays at the feet of the person, or god, who designed the system to work that way.

The biblical scriptures do not indicate torture. They reveal more the idea that one's eternal destiny will be one of love, light, joy, beauty, and peace in God's Presence, as God is the Source of life or one in self-inflicted torment due to rejecting God's goodness, therefore living in a state of separation and darkness from the Source of all love, light, joy, beauty, and peace.

 

[Milton Platt]

The biblical scriptures do not indicate torture. They reveal more the idea that one's eternal destiny will be one of love, light, joy, beauty, and peace in God's Presence, as God is the Source of life or one in self-inflicted torment due to rejecting God's goodness, therefore living in a state of separation and darkness from the Source of all love, light, joy, beauty, and peace.

No matter.......nobody chooses torment, self-inflicted or otherwise unless they are masochists, right? And as I said, if your god chose deliberately to design a system in which this occurs, then he incurs the ultimate responsibility for any and all results. Is your god limited in imagination or power and this is the best he could do? If so, then why call him "god"?

 

[InChrist]

No matter.......nobody chooses torment, self-inflicted or otherwise unless they are masochists, right? And as I said, if your god chose deliberately to design a system in which this occurs, then he incurs the ultimate responsibility for any and all results. Is your god limited in imagination or power and this is the best he could do? If so, then why call him "god"?

Okay, so if you don't plug in you phone or computer it will eventually run out of power. If a person eats only junk food or lives on illicit drugs or alcohol they will eventually get sick, have discomfort or maybe die a painful death. God designed His creatures to live in connection with His love and beauty, it is His power which sustains us. Rejecting this life-giving sustenance is self-inflicted and brings torment upon oneself.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I guess I'm not following you. If the soul is destroyed, how can "someone like us" live again? Maybe it's that we're using the word "soul" differently. I suspect that if we were each to try to define the word, that would be the case.

Buddhism asserts rebirth. They picture a soul as almost a flame, that everything distinct about the person is burned up, but the essence is used to "light" another person. This is distinct from reincarnation which sees the soul as having been largely maintained and possessing a new body.

Kinda like this.

The word soul is difficult to define as there are different religions. Christianity typically sees a soul as something going somewhere when it dies. But it you line up Buddhism with Christianity, the idea of burning away in a lake of fire suddenly doesn't sound like eternal torture. Just burning up the self and starting over.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, that is not part of the information. The only information police officers have is that rape, murder, and thief is against the law and their job is to enforce the law.

Their job is to work against the greater good? You told us that when God allows something like that to happen, it's because God knows that good will come out of it in the end. The only crimes that a police officer could stop are the ones that God didn't stop. No?

 

[QuestioningMind]

The reality is that this world is full of harmful evil perpetuated by human beings toward one another, including the murder of children, which by the way includes abortion. If God were to intervene and take everyone out who commits any kind of evil, not too many people would be here, including all the offspring who would never be born due to the fact that their parents or grandparents had heart attacks, as you suggest is the answer. At present, God is allowing humanity this temporary time to choose good... or reject good which results in harming self and others. Eternal life is God's goal. All children who die young are safe and alive for eternity, but woe to those who have harmed them.

Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Luke 17:1-2

Yeah, if God took out all of the people who commit evil, we'd have a world without evil. Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[Desert Snake]

why do priests promote the torment hell?

Because it's traditional belief in Xian religion.

Because it's an integral part of the Christian doctrine.

Basically.

the fire that judges the wicked is to annihilate them, not to torture them. the wicked do not ''exist'' after death in eternal tortures. that's sadistic.

Actually, the word annihilate in the english Bible is from a word that means eternal annihilation, annihilation without end, ie it's even worse than you thought.

There is more than one "hell", in the Bible, btw; they used the same word to describe more than one Hell reality. You know which Hell is being referred to, contextually.

 

[InChrist]

Yeah, if God took out all of the people who commit evil, we'd have a world without evil. Sounds pretty good to me.

I think you may be missing something here, because that would include you, as well as everyone. It's so easy to look at all those "evil people out there", comparing ourselves with them and conclude we're not too bad, but by God's standard even thoughts of hate or wrongful anger is murder in the heart.

 

[InChrist]

Their job is to work against the greater good? You told us that when God allows something like that to happen, it's because God knows that good will come out of it in the end. The only crimes that a police officer could stop are the ones that God didn't stop. No?

First, you are presuming that humans are on the same level as God to be able to comprehend the outcome of any given situation which I don't see as the case. Secondly, if God were not to allow any person to exist who commits crime...then you, I, or no one would exist in this world.

 

[syo]

So they aren't annihilated?

they are. the wickedness of their self is annihilated. their spirit returns to god without the ''self''. the wicked ''self'' is destroyed. wicked people don't get eternal life, because they didn't follow a path of virtue.

 

[syo]

Keeps em from leaving.

many people abandon christianity because of a torturing hell.

 

[syo]

I kind of think this isn't solving the inherent issue, just the auxiliary one about cruelty because in my view destroying people for all eternity is still an infinite punishment for a finite an temporary crime.

Does your theology have an answer to that part of the equation? I have trouble seeing such a justification since it's so final and the alledged crimes so temporary.

people who have sinned can repent. so they can be saved if they repent.

 

[syo]

So what happened to the terribly immoral God of the OT? Did Jesus kill him and take his place? Since the OT is OLD does that mean we can ignore everything that's in it? If so, why is it even included in the bible?

of course we can ignore the OT because the NT is that counts. the OT is included in the bible because it has the profecies of jesus coming. historical purposes. the OT alone means nothing, it's dead. only the NT counts.

 

[syo]

You know, I agree with you that the teaching that God is "a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment [in] hell" should stop. Personally, though, I find the notion that He would annihilate them to be just as abhorrent. So, I don't think that idea should be taught either. On second thought, though, I guess everybody has the right to teach what they genuinely believe. It's just up to us to choose wisely what voice we're going to follow.

if they are not annihilated, then what happens to the wicked? but the wicked can repent if they want, and thus they can be saved. but if they don't repent?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

First, you are presuming that humans are on the same level as God to be able to comprehend the outcome of any given situation which I don't see as the case.

No, I’m not. I’m presuming that God is trustworthy and wise. Don’t you agree?

Secondly, if God were not to allow any person to exist who commits crime...then you, I, or no one would exist in this world.

So what crimes do happen - and there are a lot of them - God, in his infinite wisdom, has allowed. Why should we try to prevent them?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Sorry about that. I'd say God does, but with one caveat. I believe He genuinely wants all of us back in His presence, and will give us every conceivable opportunity (for many, this will be after death as they await the resurrection) to accept the sacrifice Jesus Christ made on their behalf. Ultimately, almost all will, some more grudgingly than others, though. The only ones who will end up eternally separated from God are the ones who, in the end, essentially stand before Him and say, "I know who you are and I want nothing to do with you. I would rather spend eternity far away from you than in your presence." They'll get their wish, as God won't force anyone into complying with His desires.

So in essence, God decides that those that will not comply with His desires will live eternally in Hell.

But we want "[the]sadistic ruler that sends people to torment [in] hell" stigma to go away. Given the belief that He does send people to torment in hell, I really don't see this going away.