Coming out as creationists: fear.

[Hockeycowboy]

​

I was wondering why you were putting up definitions of evolutionist, I have no problem with that being applied to me. But then I saw you were concentrating on the word "belief".

Really? This silly argument? Again? Do you really think that you are the first Creo who has tried this nonsense.


I am not one of those "evos" who are afraid to use the words "believe" or "faith". However, I do understand the English language. I am aware that many words have two very different meanings. One of those words is ...

faith
fāTH/
noun

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More

2.strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine​

I'm willing to bet that you, and other Creos, do know that there are two completely different meanings of the word faith. But that doesn't stop you from trying to conflate them and go: "Ya ya ya ya - you evilutionists have nothing but your blind faith - Ya ya ya ya.

But, please, don't let me stop you from continuing to show your ignorance of all things big and small.

​

Am I supposed to be impressed that you took the time to cut and paste a bunch of stuff from JW publications?

God’s Kingdom Comes to Power in the Midst of Its Enemies — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
The March of World Powers in Prophecy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Search — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY​

I can cut and paste too...(my emphases)

1914 - Failed Watchtower prophecy - Falsified History

144,000 All Resurrected to Heaven
The 144,000, also known as the "body of Christ" or "the saints", were to all be in heaven by 1914, prior to the completion of Armageddon.

"That the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest, since the deliverance of fleshly Israel, as we shall see, is appointed to take place at that time... Just how long before 1914 the last living members of the body of Christ will be glorified, we are not directly informed;..." Studies In the Scriptures - Thy Kingdom Come (1908 ed.) p.228
​

One hundred fifty years later the 144,000 are still waiting.

Instead of cutting and pasting JW propaganda (and not showing your source), please comment on just the quote from Studies In the Scriptures - Thy Kingdom Come (1908 ed.) p.228.

None of what I posted came from the JW site, at least, not from my end.
Don’t they have their sources quoted? So what’s the problem?
Oh, you must not like the information.

At one time we believed in the cross. We believed that all good people were going to heaven. We celebrated holidays. We didn’t appreciate the importance of neutrality. But through study, once we discovered that the Scriptures don’t teach or approve of these things, we were willing to adjust our understanding.

You need to stop accusing people of being ignorant.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Oh please...this is a response to valid questions? That is a very twisted version of what I said, but it obviously suits you to say it.

Shooting the messenger obviously works for you.....tell twisted half truths and all of a sudden its a basis for dismissal....gotta warn everyone in case they might think my arguments are actually valid.
I find your avatar to be quite appropriate since you seem to be big on tantrums and short on evidence.

You've stated as much yourself, Deeje.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I agree....all those things are demonstrable...not really theories anymore, are they?.....they are proven to exist.....shame about macro-evolution though.....not even in the same ballpark....IMO.

They are still scientific theories.

 

[Jose Fly]

None of what you quoted me as saying was true in context. Twisted half-truths seem to be your specialty....is it all you need....no wonder you support evolution.

Find my statements in context, including the whole post....since you are so good at quoting what I supposedly said.

October 3, 2016: "No one will ever convince me that the billions of amazing lifeforms on this planet evolved from a single organism that somehow sprang to life in some primordial soup billions of years ago. That fantasy is less believable than an act of creation by an intelligent and purposeful Designer."

October 27, 2017: "You do realise what is at stake in this question when people accept what "might have" taken place according to science's theory, compared with what "might have" taken place if we are a product of an Intelligent Designer? Science has no reason for our being....to them, life is just a fluke that popped into existence one day and somehow morphed itself into all we see on Earth today......and it gives us no future to look forward to, except what has already taken place under human rulership....On the other hand, the Creator tells us that there is a reason for our existence".

May 24, 2017: "I have a reasonable explanation for everything and answers to every question I have ever asked from the Bible.....what could you possibly give me that is better than what I already have? No purpose, no meaning, no future....no thanks!...

(when asked if you could be an "evolutionist" and still be a Jehovah's Witness)...Those who leave our ranks have already been discussed. It is clear that once you learn "the truth"....you can't "unlearn" it. And since we can see that no one else teaches it, who would we turn to?...and why would we receive 'defectors' back into our ranks only to have them spread their poison. Let them commiserate with each other....that is all they can do apparently. They have nowhere to go. Like a ripe piece of fruit, they can't go back to being 'green'....they just go rotten.

If I became a defector, and a slanderer I would expect and deserve the same treatment."

March 29, 2017: "I will never compromise my religious beliefs because I believe that they are true."

February 7, 2017: "It is true that my beliefs govern my opinion about intelligent creation, but then so does my God-given intelligence and sense of logic." "Since science and the originator of science cannot be separated in our way of thinking, the Creator remains for us, the logical answer to all questions."

January 26, 2017: "Science wants us all to take an enormous leap of faith and believe what they say.....there is no Creator....but my leap is already taken. I have full confidence in my Maker to reveal himself in his own good time. I have a purpose to my being and a future to look forward to. What has evolution given you?"

January 16, 2017: (when asked if you could be a Jehovah's Witness and an "evolutionist") "No, as a believer, I could never compromise my views on this subject. Evolution is used to make God either disappear or to make him out to be a liar....neither of which can be true according to my very strongly held beliefs."

January 12, 2017: "There is no separation between God and science for us....separating the creation from its Creator will never answer the big questions of life for those who need an answer (like me.) Only God can do that and he does so very well in the Bible."

January 13, 2017: "Genesis is not ambiguous so there is no room for "God used evolution". That is just nonsense." "If it disagrees with the Bible, then God is not the Creator. True science does NOT disagree with the Bible...evolution does."

January 10, 2017: "How do you separate creation from the Creator? Of course its a religious issue for me."​

In looking back through all that, I was fascinated to find that this isn't the first time I've described your position in this way only to have you accuse me of dishonesty, acting as if you'd completely forgotten that you'd said any of it.

CLICK HERE and CLICK HERE

And I'll repeat what I stated back on May 25, 2017...

You paint a very bleak and depressing picture of all the things that you would have to endure, were you to admit that evolution has supporting evidence. If you were to do that, it would be like divorcing your family; you would be breaking a vow with God; you would be dishonoring God; you would no longer have answers to important life questions; your life would lose all purpose and meaning; you would have no future; you would be labeled a slanderer and a defector from the Jehovah's Witnesses, and treated like rotten fruit or someone spreading poison.

That's horrible....terrible. I don't care who a person is or what the subject is, No one wants to go through that for any reason. I would never ask anyone to put themselves through that over something in science. Lose all meaning and purpose for your life? Just by admitting that evolution has supporting evidence?

No wonder you behave the way you do here. It's far better to be thought of as dishonest and delusional by a handful of "evolutionists" on a message board than to lose all reason for living. In every interaction with someone here you have all those horrible, terrible consequences hanging over your head. Every time someone posts a scientific paper or tries to walk you through some of the science, all those things you described are looming over you. And that obviously affects your ability to think about this subject rationally and objectively. I mean, surely you're not going to tell me that a person who stands to lose all meaning and purpose to their existence if evolution were true is able to examine the science behind evolution in an objective and rational manner, right?

Simply put Deeje, you're as emotionally biased on this subject as a person can possibly be. The only question now is, do you realize it?​

give us conclusive evidence that what science teaches about macro-evolution is actually true.

Pick up where we left off: CLICK HERE

why are you continually trying to divert attention away from this fact by insulting me?

I'll ask again.....why do you think quoting your own words back to you is "insulting you"?

And why would you post those statements and then expect everyone to ignore them?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Ummmm....can I ask why general statements are taken personally? Since there are exception to every rule, I wasn't specifically talking about you LnM.....I have always found you to be fair minded in your disagreement. I respect you for that.

Because I think you're talking about the exceptions.
Regardless of their ongoing consideration of God, we still live in a society where the majority of atheists were raised in a house with a belief in God.
Admittedly, that's changing.

 

[Deeje]

I worship no superhuman god. You know that because my profile states that I am an atheist. So, once again you show your ignorance of basic English.

I know what I see....you appear to 'worship' men of science....these are your 'gods'. You have faith in their writings which you treat as your 'scripture' and the hallowed halls of academia are the temples where your gods are worshipped and where your 'devotees' are educated in 'the faith'. You can deny it, but that is what is apparent to me. You have no proof that your 'gods' are correct in the scenario that they promote. If you have an unprovable theory then teach kids that it is......not that it is irrefutable fact.
By the time they leave High School they are well and truly indoctrinated. Minds are closed.

I didn't have to prove anything wrong to myself. 1914 came and went. It wasn't the start of anything as predicted by your JW leaders. Facts are facts. I accept them, you choose to ignore them.

I believe I explained this already. It came and went because we realized that it was the beginning of the last days...not the end. Everything gets clearer as the day draws closer. All the things Jesus predicted for this time period have come true. People can either see it clearly, or they are "blind". (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) This "blindness" only affects certain people.

As you are welcome to your beliefs. My beliefs are based on evidence; yours are based on indoctrination, probably from an early age.

I'm sorry but that is not true. Your beliefs are based on faith that what science cannot prove is actually true. You are as indoctrinated as what you believe we are. We will allow time to tell then...shall we?

Many years later I learned about evolution. No indoctrination involved.

None that you are aware of. Do you understand the power of suggestion? What about perception management? Never been a victim?
You can't make people "believe" anything unless you can change their perceptions. How does the advertising industry do this to sell products to people that they don't even need? Its simple manipulation of their perceptions.
You don't think anyone with a powerful agenda can accomplish this? Think again.

That you cannot understand the difference between evidence and blind faith just shows how deeply indoctrinated you really are.

Now, that just made me laugh out loud!

How 'deeply indoctrinated' are you?

 

[Deeje]

Wow....you seriously did that....what do you think that says about your level of desperation Mr Fly?

October 3, 2016: "No one will ever convince me that the billions of amazing lifeforms on this planet evolved from a single organism that somehow sprang to life in some primordial soup billions of years ago. That fantasy is less believable than an act of creation by an intelligent and purposeful Designer."

Followed by...."How did the life begin? There are too many fortunate mutations in your scenario for it to be believable at all to me. The whole thing comes unstuck at the very beginning. The one question evolution cannot answer is the most important question of all.....if there is an all powerful Creator, your whole theory goes down the gurgler.
I guarantee that you will believe in him one day." (context)

October 27, 2017: "You do realise what is at stake in this question when people accept what "might have" taken place according to science's theory, compared with what "might have" taken place if we are a product of an Intelligent Designer? Science has no reason for our being....to them, life is just a fluke that popped into existence one day and somehow morphed itself into all we see on Earth today......and it gives us no future to look forward to, except what has already taken place under human rulership....On the other hand, the Creator tells us that there is a reason for our existence".

Interesting choice of selective quoting....this was before your quote...
"Our conclusions are not only based on our own blind faith in Earth's Creator, but looking at the so called "evidence" that science itself presents for its conclusions. Upon scrutiny, it is clearly seen as a house of cards, built on a very flimsy foundation. It looks and sounds impressive but all that "overwhelming" evidence is found to be based entirely on supposition about what "might have" happened though it is presented as if it "must have".

And after...
"...and it gives us no future to look forward to, except what has already taken place under human rulership. All we can expect is more unanswered questions and a future in the hands of those who have already proven that they are dismal failures at ruling other humans who put their faith in them. Are you confident, moving into the future under their leadership?"

May 24, 2017: "I have a reasonable explanation for everything and answers to every question I have ever asked from the Bible.....what could you possibly give me that is better than what I already have? No purpose, no meaning, no future....no thanks!...

Whole quote...
"I have already rejected evolution based on years of my own research into the subject. You reckon I would dismiss all that and go back to something I have already proven to be nonsense? I have a reasonable explanation for everything and answers to every question I have ever asked from the Bible.....what could you possibly give me that is better than what I already have? No purpose, no meaning, no future....no thanks!

(when asked if you could be an "evolutionist" and still be a Jehovah's Witness)...Those who leave our ranks have already been discussed. It is clear that once you learn "the truth"....you can't "unlearn" it. And since we can see that no one else teaches it, who would we turn to?...and why would we receive 'defectors' back into our ranks only to have them spread their poison. Let them commiserate with each other....that is all they can do apparently. They have nowhere to go. Like a ripe piece of fruit, they can't go back to being 'green'....they just go rotten.

If I became a defector, and a slanderer I would expect and deserve the same treatment."

LOL....Why would I even WANT to become an evolutionist when I have already proven to myself that it is absolute rubbish, based on nothing more that unsubstantiated assumptions. You are implying (something you do often) that if I just understood evolution that I would accept it.....I understand its precepts perfectly, but I REJECT it. Amazing isn't it? I can choose to be whatever I wish, just as you can.....you seem desperate to prove your point even to this bit of cherry picking.

Seriously I think this post of yours smacks of desperation.
I find it rather funny that you would take trolling to this level....not surprising though when you can present no real evidence for your theory so you have to resort to these tactics.....this is a pathetic excuse for presenting support for your case.

Is shooting the messenger all you know how to do?

 

[Deeje]

They are still scientific theories.

Semantics. Theories when proven have to become facts....don't they? If they are proven, why still call them theories? Oh yeah.....a "scientific theory" is just a fact waiting to be verified. Right?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Semantics. Theories when proven have to become facts....don't they? If they are proven, why still call them theories? Oh yeah.....a "scientific theory" is just a fact waiting to be verified. Right?

No, theories explain facts. Of course the theory of gravity explains the fact of gravity and the theory of evolution, explains the fact of evolution.

 

[Deeje]

Because I think you're talking about the exceptions.

I speak in generalities mostly, LnM.

Regardless of their ongoing consideration of God, we still live in a society where the majority of atheists were raised in a house with a belief in God.
Admittedly, that's changing.

I actually blame the church for a lot of the defection. YEC's have a lot to answer for in this regard IMO.
JW's don't argue with science unless there is very little in the way of actual evidence to support their claims.

If something is based on faith, then for me, the Creator wins hands down. Too many fortunate accidents to be blind chance creating such amazing variety of living things....and all the means to support that life just coincidentally....being there.

We have, in the last 50 years, seen God systematically "killed off" in the minds of this generation. I don't see that it has improved human behavior much though...do you? What hope do today's generation have for the future? Perhaps that is why they do not value their lives enough. "Eat, drink and be merry"...... Nothing to look forward to.

 

[Jose Fly]

Wow....you seriously did that....what do you think that says about your level of desperation Mr Fly?

So you challenge me to show where you said things, and when I show where you said them you say that's me being desperate?

Hilarious.

LOL....Why would I even WANT to become an evolutionist

Here is what's evident from your posts. If any of the following is inaccurate, feel free to provide correction.....

You are a Jehovah's Witness.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do not permit their members to be "evolutionists".

If a Jehovah's Witness were to be an "evolutionist", they would be treated quite poorly by their fellow members, potentially including being disfellowshipped.

Such an outcome would be devastating for you, including losing purpose and meaning for your existence and being treated very poorly by your JW friends and family.

You will not compromise your Jehovah's Witness beliefs.

You will not compromise your views on evolution.

Nothing anyone posts here will convince you to change your mind on evolution.​

Further, in going through our previous discussions I noted a couple of other things. Again, feel free to provide correction....

Your education in science is at the high school level.

You have no training or experience in science.​

You are implying (something you do often) that if I just understood evolution that I would accept it

It's the exact opposite. The unmistakable conclusion is that you cannot ever accept evolution as valid, lest your life lose purpose and meaning.

I understand its precepts perfectly

Perfectly? How did you come to that level of understanding given that you have only a high school level education and zero training or experience in evolutionary biology?

but I REJECT it. Amazing isn't it?

Not at all. You rejecting evolution is completely expected, as it is for all Jehovah's Witnesses.

not surprising though when you can present no real evidence for your theory

Again, pick up where we left off: CLICK HERE

Is shooting the messenger all you know how to do?

Again, all I've done is repeat your own words back to you. Why would you post such statements and then expect everyone to ignore them?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Well...at least in my country I have the impression that there are people out there (lay, ecclesiastical...it doesn't matter...) who believe in Creationism, but are too afraid of admitting it publicly, out of fear of being ridiculed.
Statistically speaking, I think almost nobody in the society I live in would say they're proud to believe in creation...the only people who did were a couple of JW's.
Or maybe in the US the Creationist pride is more vivid...while in Europe it's repressed?

Evolution: true or false?

I think it's true that many countries are less tolerant of skepticism towards evolution than the U.S.

I don't think that's coincidence,. America became a global leader in science over the last century by respecting and rewarding practical accomplishment in science over the vagaries of academic fashion.

People like the Wright brothers, Edison, Gates, who made this internet forum possible, were academic failures, they practiced science the method, not the culture.

And so things like evolution, global warming, the more academic v tangible sciences are still more popular within old world academia

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think it's true that many countries are less tolerant of skepticism towards evolution than the U.S.

I don't think that's coincidence,. America became a global leader in science over the last century by respecting and rewarding practical accomplishment in science over the vagaries of academic fashion.

People like the Wright brothers, Edison, Gates, who made this internet forum possible, were academic failures, they practiced science the method, not the culture.

And so things like evolution, global warming, the more academic v tangible sciences are still more popular within old world academia

Why try to besmirch science by calling it "academic"? Evolution applies to farming and medicine. I am sure that a biologist could give you more examples. Understanding the fact of evolution is helpful in oil exploration and I am sure of other applications. And you don't get much more practical than global warming. Ignoring a major problem will not make it go away. If we don't start contributing to a solution we may face united action by countries that are doing so. Luckily most Americans are not as immoral as Trump and his cronies. I don't seen him hanging around in 2020.

 

[Deeje]

Is this 50 questions? Do I get a prize?

Or is this designed to lead the Witness your Honor? (pun intended)

Are you sure you've never worked in advertising?

Here is what's evident from your posts.

I think you need to qualify that statement...this is what YOU find "evident" from my posts after you have twisted what I said all out of shape....

You are a Jehovah's Witness.

Yes indeed for the last 45 years. Never had a moment's doubt about any of my beliefs. Never once been shown anything that was even remotely convincing from any evolutionists.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do not permit their members to be "evolutionists".

Wrong. JW's do not accept evolution in any way. It isn't a matter of "not permitted" but more a matter of finding the whole theory to be based on nothing that can be substantiated except by assumption. You are good at assuming, so perhaps that is why you believe in evolution.

If a Jehovah's Witness were to be an "evolutionist", they would be treated quite poorly by their fellow members, potentially including being disfellowshipped.

Wrong again. If one who was baptized as a JW, decided that evolution was too attractive to disbelieve, then what makes you think they would want to remain as a JW in congregation meetings every week, talking about the Creator? We have enough information in our literature for people to make a decision about the Creator's existence, before they take the step of baptism.

There would be no disfellowshipping if that person just quietly walked out the door never to return. However, if that person then took it upon themselves to try and subvert the faith of others, then we would take a dim view of that. Disfellowshipping would follow and we would have nothing more to do with that person. God hates rebels...and we don't want them either.We make no apology for that. Everyone knows exactly where they stand.

Such an outcome would be devastating for you, including losing purpose and meaning for your existence and being treated very poorly by your JW friends and family.

Oh good grief! Emotional appeals now.

Boo hoo....if I was disfellowshipped, it would more likely be for breaking God's moral laws, which is the primary reason for most disfellowshipping in our ranks. They are not common, thank goodness. But in all my years as a JW, I never once met anyone who swapped Jehovah for evolution. Its such a bad trade.

God's laws are not negotiable and if we break them, just as we would if we broke the laws of the land...there will be a penalty. If we were more concerned with losing our family and friends, don't you think it would be a good idea not to break the law in the first place? We think so because that is what the Bible teaches. Weigh up your options carefully and there can be no mistakes resulting in heartbreak.

You will not compromise your Jehovah's Witness beliefs.

We believe by choice, because we have spent a good deal of time on our research. No one is forced to believe anything. What JW's taught just made perfect sense to me....they still do.

You cannot join Jehovah's Witnesses....you have to choose to become one, and only after you have qualified to call yourself one. Wishy-washy indecisive people are nauseating, so we really have no place for such people. (Revelation 3:15-16) When we choose Jehovah over the musings of men that could all change tomorrow, we are in a committed relationship with the Creator of the Universe. Its a nice place to live. I have never wanted to move onto that shaky ground that the majority have chosen.
Tell me what is remotely attractive about it?

You will not compromise your views on evolution.

I will not compromise on any view that I hold with conviction. Will you? Is there anything I could present to you about creation that would touch any part of your apparently stony heart Mr Fly? I think not.
Your responses on these threads demonstrate how desperate you are to maintain your own convictions. Heaven forbid that anyone might believe the Bible and not science!

Nothing anyone posts here will convince you to change your mind on evolution.

There is no convincing evidence....how can you not understand this? Nothing that you or anyone else have presented to date is even remotely convincing to me. I have been given link upon link and I can dismantle all of them by simply highlighting the suggestive nature of the claim. NO facts mean that you have nothing with which to convince me. Can I make that any clearer? You are welcome to the guesswork.
I have so much more than that.

Again, all I've done is repeat your own words back to you. Why would you post such statements and then expect everyone to ignore them?

Oh please ....all you did was twist my words by taking them out of context. I hope if anyone cares to check that they will use the opportunity to go to my old thread ("Just Accidental") which still adds about 100 hits a day since it was closed last year, because there are some good posts in that thread. It has topped 101,000 at last count. So.....someone is interested.

EDIT: Did you spark a landslide Mr Fly? I just checked...that thread had over 1300 hits overnight. How awesome!

The unmistakable conclusion is that you cannot ever accept evolution as valid, lest your life lose purpose and meaning.

Hog wash......the reason why I cannot accept what you accept is because I think its illogical nonsense based on nothing substantive. You have this monumental structure that all the devotees so admire, but it is built on toothpicks. A crash is inevitable.....sorry.

How did you come to that level of understanding given that you have only a high school level education and zero training or experience in evolutionary biology?

I have researched many things on science websites over the years, I can read you know....and I am not devoid of intelligence, if that is what you are suggesting....? I don't have zero education in the right knowledge. You do understand what "training" is don't you......I can do that with my dog.

You rejecting evolution is completely expected, as it is for all Jehovah's Witnesses.

If we thought for one moment that Jehovah wasn't real and that he wasn't the supreme first cause of everything, then we might be open to the suggestions made by science because we would have little in the way of other choices, would we? I like my choice and I will keep it because you have nothing better to put in its place, nor will you ever have. "Eat, drink and be merry" Mr Fly.

Again, all I've done is repeat your own words back to you. Why would you post such statements and then expect everyone to ignore them?

No you haven't...you have selected parts out of context to suggest things I never said....you like suggestions better than actual truth, apparently.

Your education in science is at the high school level.

Do I have degrees in science...am I trained like a seal to believe it? Nope. But I have read extensively and the things I have read all say the same things...."might have"..."could have" "must have"....there is nothing but suggestion backing the entire proposition. I don't consider that real science.

You have no training or experience in science.

And your training leads you where?

Can you back up a single thing with proof?
NO! Because science doesn't deal in proof....if there's no proof, there are no facts....no foundation
for your beliefs that are any more substantial than mine.

This is what 'training' results in.

 

[ecco]

None of what I posted came from the JW site, at least, not from my end.
Don’t they have their sources quoted? So what’s the problem?
Oh, you must not like the information.

I copied some of the words from some of your quotes into Google. Each time it came up with a JW site, as I showed. How did you find all these quotes? Did you do a Google search on JW Failed predictions?

At one time we believed in the cross. We believed that all good people were going to heaven. We celebrated holidays. We didn’t appreciate the importance of neutrality. But through study, once we discovered that the Scriptures don’t teach or approve of these things, we were willing to adjust our understanding.

People adjusting their understandings is one thing. Religious cult leaders making failed predictions about the end of times is something else altogether. Continuing to believe these leaders is ridiculous.

You need to stop accusing people of being ignorant.

I don't think I called anyone ignorant. I have pointed out to some people that they were ignorant of some specific things. Do you not understand the difference?


I notice you made no comments on your failed attempt to conflate the two different meanings of the word "belief".

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How did you find all these quotes?

Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

 

[Estro Felino]

I think it's true that many countries are less tolerant of skepticism towards evolution than the U.S.

Well...I think that in Europe Darwinism has always had a strong cultural imprint. I was raised in a strongly Catholic country and yet I was taught that Evolution is the solid scientific truth, and any other alternative is absurd.

When you are wired to think like that, something like Intelligent Design seems unthinkable to you.
I swear it...the first time I heard of ID was in this forum...and it really surprised me as a concept.

 

[exchemist]

Well...I think that in Europe Darwinism has always had a strong cultural imprint. I was raised in a strongly Catholic country and yet I was taught that Evolution is the solid scientific truth, and any other alternative is absurd.

When you are wired to think like that, something like Intelligent Design seems unthinkable to you.
I swear it...the first time I heard of ID was in this forum...and it really surprised me as a concept.

Naturally. It is an entirely unscientific idea, pretending to be science!

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think it's true that many countries are less tolerant of skepticism towards evolution than the U.S.

I don't think that's coincidence,. America became a global leader in science over the last century by respecting and rewarding practical accomplishment in science over the vagaries of academic fashion.

People like the Wright brothers, Edison, Gates, who made this internet forum possible, were academic failures, they practiced science the method, not the culture.

And so things like evolution, global warming, the more academic v tangible sciences are still more popular within old world academia

Wait...youre offering Bill Gates as an example of American pragmatism, with the topic being why Creationist arguments are better received in the States?
Really??

 

[exchemist]

No, I have difficulty understanding how something that is not provable can be taught as fact.

It isn't....or at least, should not be.

It is true that in scientific discussions or teaching we do not preface every reference to a theory with a caveat about its formally unproven status. This is understood and taken for granted, given the context.

Where I think you could have a valid criticism is that we probably do not make enough occasional references to this, to remind ourselves of the humility with which we should regard our theories. This can be especially true in teaching for non-scientists, e.g. on TV by some of these ebullient showmen.

The chemistry teacher who inspired me to study the subject at university had a notable habit. If he asked the class a question about a theory and somebody gave a good answer, he would never say "That's right". He would always say, "Yes, this is one model." Perhaps in chemistry particularly, the scientist is continually confronted with the existence of more than one model for the same phenomenon. Thus we have the "valence bond" and "molecular orbital" theories of chemical bonding, we have the organic chemist's representation of reaction mechanisms by what a physical chemist would dismiss as mere "arrow-pushing", and so on. We quite happily select the model to use according to the task at hand, only occasionally thinking how these models relate to one another.

My avatar represents an organic molecule that is famous for forming an ion (the norbornyl cation) that defies the normal laws of organic chemical bonding. It does not fit the model! That's why I chose it.

This awareness that we deal in models, not "facts", is just there tacitly, in the background: we do not need to spell it out to one another continually.

P.S. I Iook forward to your reply to post 149, whenever you are ready.