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Jesus' Second Coming

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
While Christ was here on earth, Yes Christ had a physical body while here on earth.

After the death and Resurrection of
Christ has a spiritual body and physical body as well.
What this means is, That Christ has a physical body, but not like our physical body.
Christ Jesus can appear and disappear
So the physical body of Christ Jesus, is not totally a physical body as we know a physical body to be.

As Christ Jesus sat with the disciple in the book of Luke 24:30,31,
As Christ Jesus sat with the disciple eating. Then all of sudden Christ vanished right before their eyes.
Therefore Christ Jesus does not have a physical body as we know a physical body to be. Which Christ Jesus can appear and then disappear in the spirit.


christ doesn't come and go. christ is all and in all. colossians 3:11
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 15:52 does not exclude believers seeing the return of Christ along with everyone else.


There are a whole series of tribulations in the book of Revelation. I tend to follow Barnes Notes on Revelation (amillennial view) but I am open to alternative meanings. Stars falling from heaven usually means the end of a nation or empire, or the end of the world. It is a common symbol, and was used to denote the end of Judaism as the world knew it in AD 70 in Mat 24; in Rev 6;13 probably the end of the Western Roman Empire by the Goths and Vandals, and in Mat 24 again (a dual prophecy) also to denote the second coming when worldly kingdoms and rulers will all fall.


I am not a premillennialist, if that is what you are inferring. I am an amillennialist and concur the "rapture" so-termed immediately precedes the end of the world and the last judgement, and so post-dates all tribulation of Revelation.

So what your saying, is that you would rather follow Barns notes on Revelation, Than follow what Christ Jesus has sat down in Revelation.

Stars in the book of Revelation are in reference to angels.
Revelation 1:20--"The seven stars, are the angels"
Therefore when the stars of heaven fall, which are Satan and his angels cast out of heaven. Revelation 12:7-12.

Again those stars in Revelation 6:13, are Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven. Revelation 12:7-12.

Revelation 6:12-13, pertains to Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven.
Revelation 12:7-12.

And then Revelation 6:14-17, Pertains to Christ Jesus of his coming.

Before Christ Jesus can return, The last Prophecy of Revelation which brings about Christ Jesus return, has to happen first.
That when this Prophecy happens, the tribulation is over.

So the Rapture will be no good. Seeing how by the time the Rapture is to happen before the tribulation, and seeing how Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy of Revelation happens first, That by the time the Rapture is supposed to happen the tribulation is over.

So what good is the rapture going to do, seeing the tribulation is over.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
christ doesn't come and go. christ is all and in all. colossians 3:11

Well maybe you should explain that to Christ Jesus, Seeing how Christ Jesus sat down with his disciples to eat, and then vanished right before their eyes.
Once Christ Jesus was there and then vanished.
Seems like Christ Jesus coming and going.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The answer to that is that after Jesus ascended in spirit, the attending angels asked the higher-ups for permission to accelerate time in the local area around Jesus' dead body so that it would disappear in a flash instead of taking years or decades to decompose, and the energies released from this high speed disolution process are probably/possibly, what caused the photographic type image in the chemicals in the Shroud of Turin.

No, seriously. You can read all about it in The Urantia Book. Here's a clip:

THE MATERIAL BODY OF JESUS

189:2.1 At ten minutes past three o’clock, as the resurrected Jesus fraternized with the assembled morontia personalities from the seven mansion worlds of Satania, the chief of archangels—the angels of the resurrection—approached Gabriel and asked for the mortal body of Jesus. Said the chief of the archangels: “We may not participate in the morontia resurrection of the bestowal experience of Michael our sovereign, but we would have his mortal remains put in our custody for immediate dissolution. We do not propose to employ our technique of dematerialization; we merely wish to invoke the process of accelerated time. It is enough that we have seen the Sovereign live and die on Urantia; the hosts of heaven would be spared the memory of enduring the sight of the slow decay of the human form of the Creator and Upholder of a universe. In the name of the celestial intelligences of all Nebadon, I ask for a mandate giving me the custody of the mortal body of Jesus of Nazareth and empowering us to proceed with its immediate dissolution.”

189:2.2 And when Gabriel had conferred with the senior Most High of Edentia, the archangel spokesman for the celestial hosts was given permission to make such disposition of the physical remains of Jesus as he might determine.

189:2.3 After the chief of archangels had been granted this request, he summoned to his assistance many of his fellows, together with a numerous host of the representatives of all orders of celestial personalities, and then, with the aid of the Urantia midwayers, proceeded to take possession of Jesus’ physical body. This body of death was a purely material creation; it was physical and literal; it could not be removed from the tomb as the morontia form of the resurrection had been able to escape the sealed sepulchre. By the aid of certain morontia auxiliary personalities, the morontia form can be made at one time as of the spirit so that it can become indifferent to ordinary matter, while at another time it can become discernible and contactable to material beings, such as the mortals of the realm.

189:2.4 As they made ready to remove the body of Jesus from the tomb preparatory to according it the dignified and reverent disposal of near-instantaneous dissolution, it was assigned the secondary Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb. The larger of these two stones was a huge circular affair, much like a millstone, and it moved in a groove chiseled out of the rock, so that it could be rolled back and forth to open or close the tomb. When the watching Jewish guards and the Roman soldiers, in the dim light of the morning, saw this huge stone begin to roll away from the entrance of the tomb, apparently of its own accord—without any visible means to account for such motion—they were seized with fear and panic, and they fled in haste from the scene. The Jews fled to their homes, afterward going back to report these doings to their captain at the temple. The Romans fled to the fortress of Antonia and reported what they had seen to the centurion as soon as he arrived on duty.

189:2.5 The Jewish leaders began the sordid business of supposedly getting rid of Jesus by offering bribes to the traitorous Judas, and now, when confronted with this embarrassing situation, instead of thinking of punishing the guards who deserted their post, they resorted to bribing these guards and the Roman soldiers. They paid each of these twenty men a sum of money and instructed them to say to all: “While we slept during the nighttime, his disciples came upon us and took away the body.” And the Jewish leaders made solemn promises to the soldiers to defend them before Pilate in case it should ever come to the governor’s knowledge that they had accepted a bribe.


189:2.6 The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the “empty tomb.” It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

189:2.7 The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the “dust to dust,” without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

189:2.8 The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.[/QUOT
The answer to that is that after Jesus ascended in spirit, the attending angels asked the higher-ups for permission to accelerate time in the local area around Jesus' dead body so that it would disappear in a flash instead of taking years or decades to decompose, and the energies released from this high speed disolution process are probably/possibly, what caused the photographic type image in the chemicals in the Shroud of Turin.

No, seriously. You can read all about it in The Urantia Book. Here's a clip:

THE MATERIAL BODY OF JESUS

189:2.1 At ten minutes past three o’clock, as the resurrected Jesus fraternized with the assembled morontia personalities from the seven mansion worlds of Satania, the chief of archangels—the angels of the resurrection—approached Gabriel and asked for the mortal body of Jesus. Said the chief of the archangels: “We may not participate in the morontia resurrection of the bestowal experience of Michael our sovereign, but we would have his mortal remains put in our custody for immediate dissolution. We do not propose to employ our technique of dematerialization; we merely wish to invoke the process of accelerated time. It is enough that we have seen the Sovereign live and die on Urantia; the hosts of heaven would be spared the memory of enduring the sight of the slow decay of the human form of the Creator and Upholder of a universe. In the name of the celestial intelligences of all Nebadon, I ask for a mandate giving me the custody of the mortal body of Jesus of Nazareth and empowering us to proceed with its immediate dissolution.”

189:2.2 And when Gabriel had conferred with the senior Most High of Edentia, the archangel spokesman for the celestial hosts was given permission to make such disposition of the physical remains of Jesus as he might determine.

189:2.3 After the chief of archangels had been granted this request, he summoned to his assistance many of his fellows, together with a numerous host of the representatives of all orders of celestial personalities, and then, with the aid of the Urantia midwayers, proceeded to take possession of Jesus’ physical body. This body of death was a purely material creation; it was physical and literal; it could not be removed from the tomb as the morontia form of the resurrection had been able to escape the sealed sepulchre. By the aid of certain morontia auxiliary personalities, the morontia form can be made at one time as of the spirit so that it can become indifferent to ordinary matter, while at another time it can become discernible and contactable to material beings, such as the mortals of the realm.

189:2.4 As they made ready to remove the body of Jesus from the tomb preparatory to according it the dignified and reverent disposal of near-instantaneous dissolution, it was assigned the secondary Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb. The larger of these two stones was a huge circular affair, much like a millstone, and it moved in a groove chiseled out of the rock, so that it could be rolled back and forth to open or close the tomb. When the watching Jewish guards and the Roman soldiers, in the dim light of the morning, saw this huge stone begin to roll away from the entrance of the tomb, apparently of its own accord—without any visible means to account for such motion—they were seized with fear and panic, and they fled in haste from the scene. The Jews fled to their homes, afterward going back to report these doings to their captain at the temple. The Romans fled to the fortress of Antonia and reported what they had seen to the centurion as soon as he arrived on duty.

189:2.5 The Jewish leaders began the sordid business of supposedly getting rid of Jesus by offering bribes to the traitorous Judas, and now, when confronted with this embarrassing situation, instead of thinking of punishing the guards who deserted their post, they resorted to bribing these guards and the Roman soldiers. They paid each of these twenty men a sum of money and instructed them to say to all: “While we slept during the nighttime, his disciples came upon us and took away the body.” And the Jewish leaders made solemn promises to the soldiers to defend them before Pilate in case it should ever come to the governor’s knowledge that they had accepted a bribe.


189:2.6 The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the “empty tomb.” It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

189:2.7 The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the “dust to dust,” without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

189:2.8 The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.
I am not familiar with whatever it is you quoted. No matter, it must be some form of commentary. Interesting, but it has no authority.

I will stay with the source that has the authority to speak on these matters.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
While Christ was here on earth, Yes Christ had a physical body while here on earth.

After the death and Resurrection of
Christ has a spiritual body and physical body as well.
What this means is, That Christ has a physical body, but not like our physical body.
Christ Jesus can appear and disappear
So the physical body of Christ Jesus, is not totally a physical body as we know a physical body to be.

As Christ Jesus sat with the disciple in the book of Luke 24:30,31,
As Christ Jesus sat with the disciple eating. Then all of sudden Christ vanished right before their eyes.
Therefore Christ Jesus does not have a physical body as we know a physical body to be. Which Christ Jesus can appear and then disappear in the spirit.
It has nothing to do with the nature of Christ's physical body, it has everything to do with his omnipotence, he can do whatever he chooses to do, There is no physical law that he is bound by.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I never said I was the one who commands Jesus. Are you a twister? Twisting what people say is a dumb, dishonest game. I said that (in my opinion, which goes without saying that it's my opinion, in my opinion) Jesus is not coming back any time soon. He's only been gone for 2 of his days. Perhaps Melchizedek will stop in after the coming wars and help us put the pieces back together, but if you're a Christian hyped up on the idea that Jesus is returning as soon as Trump can get the next war started, I think you're in for a disappointment. He clearly said that no one knows when he's coming back, but nevertheless, Christians can't seem to stop trying to second guess what Jesus is going to do next, and I know there are a lot of them who think they can force Jesus' hand in the matter if only they can get the proper end times wars going.
First, your idea that Christians are trying to force God's hand by starting a war is repugnant, Anyone who believes that can't be a Christian.

Second, We certainly don't know the exact time of Christ's return, but indicators are given, it's called prophecy. most, if not all have been fulfilled regarding his return.

Third, you say, properly, that no one knows the time of his return, then you promptly violate that by saying it won't be any time soon. I suggest you re read the story of the wise and foolish virgins.

Fourth, what do you mean by " two of His days" ?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Well maybe you should explain that to Christ Jesus, Seeing how Christ Jesus sat down with his disciples to eat, and then vanished right before their eyes.
Once Christ Jesus was there and then vanished.
Seems like Christ Jesus coming and going.


john 21:15 jesus refers to other christs as lambs.

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
so as melchizedek and jesus, you don't believe he reincarnated?

As the Word, I AM, and Melchizedek he was himself acting in different ways (Melchizedek was not a human, though perhaps may have appeared so in the same manner as angels may appear as humans). When he was Christ, it was the only time he was literally born as a human (for the purpose of experiencing that which we do in order to better serve as intercessor -among other things).

It depends what you mean by reincarnated.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
As the Word, I AM, and Melchizedek he was himself acting in different ways (Melchizedek was not a human, though perhaps may have appeared so in the same manner as angels may appear as humans). When he was Christ, it was the only time he was literally born as a human (for the purpose of experiencing that which we do in order to better serve as intercessor -among other things).

It depends what you mean by reincarnated.

exodus 3:14 implies everything and everyone. it doesn't imply exclusively some things vs other things.

understanding this is the revelation and

John 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


incarnate again, or anew.

to come in the flesh more than once. jesus, elisha, adam, melchizedek, are all one and the same spirit
 

Furchizedek

Member
I am not a twister. I am very new here, and read the rules, and remembered the below rule. I myself try to not forget IMHO when stating my opinion as a definitive matter of fact. And it really feels different when reading [with IMHO]. How you write it above makes all the difference; I would never have replied the way I did. I must admit I used to forget it myself, and after being 40days on the forum I really think this is the best lesson I learnt here.

You are very new here I see now. So I should not have done it this way. My mistake.

RF Rules
8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.

Alright, to be in compliance with the fine print, I will henceforth declare, unnecessarily, in my opinion, that everything I say here is my opinion or my belief. How anyone could take my BELIEFS as fact when they are in fact, beliefs, is beyond me. Isn't religion ALL about beliefs? Is there anyone here with religious beliefs that are facts? I think not. Not even the existence of God can objectively be said to be a fact. Like the turtles** it's beliefs all the way down. Sorry, what I objected to was seeing what I had said come back to me so paraphrased that it looked like I had said something else (if that's what happened, and maybe I misread it). How could I command Jesus to return on MY schedule? I just happen to think that He's not coming back here anytime soon. That's my opinion. A thousand years on earth is as one day in heaven (according to the bible). So he's been gone for two days. And I know Christians anticipate His imminent return and I think that in some Christian circles they are even trying to help the process along. I think they're going to be disappointed.

**Turtles all the way down - Wikipedia
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
exodus 3:14 implies everything and everyone. it doesn't imply exclusively some things vs other things.

understanding this is the revelation and

John 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


incarnate again, or anew.

to come in the flesh more than once. jesus, elisha, adam, melchizedek, are all one and the same spirit
I do believe that I AM THAT AM means that God (The Word and the Father are "one" -in agreement and inseparable -though technically two persons) is essentially everything that exists -even that we are essentially made from a part of all that is God -but separate in that he allowed us individual decision-making power, creativity, etc.

I do not believe that he was the same "person" as Adam and Elisha, however.
Christ is called "the firstborn of many brethren". He is in authority over us under the Father, but we will be made like him in perfection of righteousness and by being given an eternal body.
Adam was most certainly a sinner -as was Elisha, etc. -whereas Christ was without sin.
Adam and Elisha will be among the children of God -but are not the same person as the firstborn.
 

Furchizedek

Member
jesus is made after, not before, the order of melchizedek. the order is not jesus. the pattern is melchizedek.

WAIT! Wait! Don't you have to state that the above is just your opinion, your belief? You can't state it as you have, as if it's a fact, from what I now understand about the rules here. Will someone please explain to me who has to abide by this rule and who doesn't?

Anyway, the above Christian doctrines of men about Jesus and Melchizedek is wrong, in my opinion.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Stars in the book of Revelation are in reference to angels.
Revelation 1:20--"The seven stars, are the angels"
Therefore when the stars of heaven fall, which are Satan and his angels cast out of heaven. Revelation 12:7-12.

Again those stars in Revelation 6:13, are Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven. Revelation 12:7-12.
The problem with this interpretation is that Rev 6;13 is the sixth seal. It is clearly future prophecy (things that are shortly to come to pass), and Rev 6 includes references to the Sun and the Moon which is classic Mat 24 termilogy and refers to political events. Rev 12 does not refer to the sun and the moon.

I don't believe a star is always an angel. It may be one. It may be some other luminary. It is lucifer/satan on occasions (the morning star). Genesis 37:9 shows plainly that a star may infer human potentates.

The key to understand Revelation is that sometimes it is chronological, but sometimes it goes backward in time to start from the beginning again. Revelation 12 refers to the woman and the dragon. These are events relating to Christ and the foundation of the church IMO. As Jesus made clear, Satan had already fallen from heaven in his life time. Luke 10;18. How many times can Satan fall from heaven? Once only, I think, unless Satan once fallen to earth is given renewed power and so ascends to heaven again. I need to think about that one, but I think that it is unlikely.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
WAIT! Wait! Don't you have to state that the above is just your opinion, your belief? You can't state it as you have, as if it's a fact, from what I now understand about the rules here. Will someone please explain to me who has to abide by this rule and who doesn't?

Anyway, the above Christian doctrines of men about Jesus and Melchizedek is wrong, in my opinion.
this isn't my opinion. it's a quote.

Psalm 110:4
The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


otherwise, please see the IMO below
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The problem with this interpretation is that Rev 6;13 is the sixth seal. It is clearly future prophecy (things that are shortly to come to pass), and Rev 6 includes references to the Sun and the Moon which is classic Mat 24 termilogy and refers to political events. Rev 12 does not refer to the sun and the moon.

I don't believe a star is always an angel. It may be one. It may be some other luminary. It is lucifer/satan on occasions (the morning star). Genesis 37:9 shows plainly that a star may infer human potentates.

The key to understand Revelation is that sometimes it is chronological, but sometimes it goes backward in time to start from the beginning again. Revelation 12 refers to the woman and the dragon. These are events relating to Christ and the foundation of the church IMO. As Jesus made clear, Satan had already fallen from heaven in his life time. Luke 10;18. How many times can Satan fall from heaven? Once only, I think, unless Satan once fallen to earth is given renewed power and so ascends to heaven again. I need to think about that one, but I think that it is unlikely.

its the difference between outward light and inward light to see by. see?



u are the light of the world, a city set on a hill.


Revelation 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


christ realized
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
First, your idea that Christians are trying to force God's hand by starting a war is repugnant, Anyone who believes that can't be a Christian.
Second, We certainly don't know the exact time of Christ's return, but indicators are given, it's called prophecy. most, if not all have been fulfilled regarding his return.
Third, you say, properly, that no one knows the time of his return, then you promptly violate that by saying it won't be any time soon. I suggest you re read the story of the wise and foolish virgins.
Fourth, what do you mean by " two of His days" ?

IMHO.
There are so many denominations of Christians. I think everyone is free to believe as he/she wants. Not for me to tell who is/isn't a Christian
And that thought did cross my mind, that some humans would love to coerce things if it helps prophecies getting fullfilled [I hope they won't!]
I read the story of the virgins: first thought crossing my mind was "foolish without oil were the ones who masterbated [spiritual juices gone]"
 

Furchizedek

Member
The problem with this interpretation is that Rev 6;13 is the sixth seal. It is clearly future prophecy (things that are shortly to come to pass), and Rev 6 includes references to the Sun and the Moon which is classic Mat 24 termilogy and refers to political events. Rev 12 does not refer to the sun and the moon.

I don't believe a star is always an angel. It may be one. It may be some other luminary. It is lucifer/satan on occasions (the morning star). Genesis 37:9 shows plainly that a star may infer human potentates.

The key to understand Revelation is that sometimes it is chronological, but sometimes it goes backward in time to start from the beginning again. Revelation 12 refers to the woman and the dragon. These are events relating to Christ and the foundation of the church IMO. As Jesus made clear, Satan had already fallen from heaven in his life time. Luke 10;18. How many times can Satan fall from heaven? Once only, I think, unless Satan once fallen to earth is given renewed power and so ascends to heaven again. I need to think about that one, but I think that it is unlikely.

Qualifier: Everything I say below is my opinion and/or my beliefs some of which I may have derived from The Urantia Book or other sources.

139:4.14 When in temporary exile on Patmos, John wrote the Book of Revelation, which you now have in greatly abridged and distorted form. This Book of Revelation contains the surviving fragments of a great revelation, large portions of which were lost, other portions of which were removed, subsequent to John’s writing. It is preserved in only fragmentary and adulterated form. -The Urantia Book
 
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