So then, we or some other being before us, was able to bring for something into the universe which had not been there, that God did not create?
What do you mean "bring forth something into the universe which had not been there, that God did not create"? Where on earth in the Genesis account did you come up with that???
That's YOUR theory Windwalker, not mine. Your account doesn't appear in Genesis and your interpretation of sin is not evidenced in scripture. Instead it appears to me, however wrongly, that you're not really reading what I write but only read what you
wish I would write.
That is not the right way to read my posts and is certainly no way to read and interpret Christian theology.
In any event I'm going to proceed under the assumption that when Christians say "SIN!" you're not exactly sure what we mean. Let's proceed:
If you answer yes, which you have to, then there are other gods since only God is supposed to be responsible for all of creation, right?
There are plenty of false gods that man brought forth. The bible is replete with them. They don't exist except in the imagination of men.
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
Let's not conflate Godly attributes and claim they are made. Free will was not made. Let's not confuse disobedience to God as something "made". Disobedience is an
allowance, not a
creation, of God, and is a possible result of free will.
Prior to the making of free will creatures sin was not possible as God was never conflicted with Himself.
Let's proceed...
So then, it appears either sin does not actually exist as this "thing" that our actions as humans brought into the world,
EXCELLENT Windwalker! I think we're making progress here. Sin is not a "thing", with GPS coordinates. It's an exercise of free will and manifested in our actions.
or some entity did some creating of its own outside God's will or power.
Careful! We were making progess. Let's not backslide here.
Hence, why God would not be omnipotent if this were so.
Since this is not so, there is no need to conjecture as if it is.
If sin is disobedience to God, then why not just call it that, and not call it like some force or something that got brought into existence through disobedience?
Because I don't claim it's "some force or something that got brought into existence". That's something you or somebody else claims. I claim it's an exercise of free will and free will was not "some force or something that got brought into existence" because God always had free will.
I hope this is now clear.
You are treating it as a "thing", a force of dark energies or something like that.
After all I've posted here, answering every question you've asked, can you please let me know where you got that idea?
I appreciate your restatement. Restatements allow us to understand if we understand the other person's point of view correctly. But dialogue will be difficult if you repeatedly restate what I didn't write into something you prefer I did.
Let's test your restatement by kindly quoting the passage where I claimed, or inferred sin was
"..a "thing", a force of dark energies or something like that".
But in reality, it is interesting you say sin is "disobedience", using the Strict Parent image of God, as you appear to hold by that word choice. The word sin in the Greek of course, actually means "to fall short of the mark", which I assumed every Christian alive knows at this point. That falling short of the mark is not necessarily being "disobedient".
Ready the goalposts! I think they're about to be moved.
Please stay with thread theme and the context of our discussion. We're discussing A&E's sin which was disobedience to a command of God.
That would actually be more a symptom, than a cause.
Disobedience is not a symptom of free will else God would be disobedient. Also, and I am not sure if you're alleging otherwise, but disobedience is an
exercise of free will and not a
cause of free will. So disobedience is a sin but it is not a thingy, it is not a dark "force", nor is it a symptom or cause of free will.
Falling short, doesn't mean you saying screw off to God. One doesn't have to be a state of active rebellion, in order to fall short of the mark. A dark thought about yourself or another is falling shot of the Grace of God, but it's not being "disobedient" (bad boy, bad boy, spank spank, spank). Many very loving and obedient children don't measure up at all times to making the best choice, or error in responses. This image of God that would call that "disobedient", is not a very Knowing or Compassionate God.
Interesting sidebar, and to some extent I agree, but we're talking about a man and woman, not a boy and girl. Let's get back to the Genesis account and the specific matter we were discussing which was A&E purposeful, non-accidental decision to not obey the command of God.
I rather see it that God created us as we are, and part of that was a path to find our way home to God. I don't believe the Adam and Eve story literally, as though it were meant to be read as historical and scientific facts.
I agree with you that God created us "as we were". I also believe He knew what we would be, but decided on creating us anyways because He knows what we will become.
It is not a literal accounting, but an expression of the angst of the human condition, realizing we "fall short of the mark" or God, or that we are in the state of "sin". It ascribes this realization to mythological figures to represent this in us. So the story is "true", in that this is where we find ourselves, but it is not history and science.
I appreciate your thoughts on Genesis. I know some people consider it literal, other allegory, still others something else. I believe the bible to be the word of God and that when God speaks His word is inerrant. I also agree with your previous statement that for now, we see through a dark glassy.
"ἁμαρτία hamartia "sin", is failure, being in error, missing the mark, especially in spear throwing"
No, it's not "disobedience" that's a different word.
Again, we're talking about A&E's sin so yes, disobedience was involved,and this much more than "spear throwing". When they were disobedient they erred or missed the mark.
Of course. Have you studied other views of this?
I've studied, but I would not consider myself a current student. It's been a long time since college.
I would never imagine God being bounded by creation. And, I would also never image being God not within every part of creation, fully present, in everything and everyone. That we don't see God, does not mean God is actually absent. God is not "out there", or "up there" somewhere outside creation either. That's not possible.
I agree with you to some extent. Physically there can be no place where God is not. Spiritually I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells those who want Him.
Sin exists whenever and wherever there is disobedience to God. We are not the only creation of God that was granted free will. Animals do not have the ability to accept or reject God, so they do not sin.
All creation is a witness to God in its own way. But they would not have the capacity to take the Lord's name in vain, bear false witness or keep the Sabbath, and still, even after all these years, have no idea they're running around naked.
I don't buy that either. Of course we can grow, but why do you call that "fallen". Is a five year old a defective, or "fallen" 12 year old?
Yes, both are fallen:
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:22-24)
We are fallen because we are morally and spiritually degraded from where we were in the garden.
Remember Jesus' admonishment to the church at Ephesus: “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first” (Revelation 2:5 see also 1 Corinthians 10:12).
Saying no, to indulgences is self-discipline, not pulling out knives and spears and going to war with yourself. That's unhealthy. That's violence. Violence is sin too. Wiping your back with shards of bone attached to leather straps in not a true spiritual path. That's just the ego
I agree! As scripture states:
"These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Col 2:23)
but when Christians war with fleshly desires they are not pulling knives, wiping themselves with shards of bone or even striking themselves with leather straps.
It is a spiritual war against our fallen, carnal nature.