shmogie
Well-Known Member
So, I am a Christian and a Bible believer.
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Omniscience is impossible.
- Thread starter Cary Cook
- Start date
Cary Cook
Member
No. There is no reason why the Supreme Being must be omniscient or omnipotent.
Even if God does pre-exist THIS beginning, there is no reason to assume he knows all.
Cary Cook
Member
It's a problem because it never ends, therefore there is no such thing as all of it.
Cary Cook
Member
Ooooooookay, if you're here to have fun. I'm here to seek truth and help others get to the next step on their own truth seeking path. I don't find it fun; I think it's moral, and that if there is justice I will be rewarded for it. Let me know if you ever want to get serious.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Sure! But. You claim that a Wish-granting Sky Fairy (who never actually grants any wishes) is real.
And you want to seriously discuss that subject? Okay. We can seriously discuss the subject if you want.
(and by "wish" I mean "praying"... same thing, really)
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Indeed. Ample proof that the bible is not remotely logical. And you complain that I call it 'silly'?
Okay...
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
If all you say is true? Then? This god you describe cannot be all-knowing. Nor can it be all-powerful.
Which is what *I* said....!
Cary Cook
Member
I'm not asserting that the Supreme Being doesn't know some particular thing.
I'm asserting that the Supreme Being doesn't necessarily know some things. e.g.
Future contingent events
The location and velocity of any particle, much less all of them
In fact, technically the Supreme Being may have forgotten where he put this universe.
Axe Elf
Prophet
Just not THIS Bible, I guess...
The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come. --Revelation 17:8
Clearly, those who will be saved have had their names recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. At a minimum, this requires absolute foreknowledge, if not predestination. Both preclude free will.
And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world. --Revelation 13:8
Jesus' sacrifice, the mechanism of salvation, was also known, if not determined, from the moment of creation. And it just goes on and on and on...
Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent] --Ephesians 1:4-5
[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will, --Ephesians 1:10-11
For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]. --Ephesians 2:10
Since a man's days are already determined, and the number of his months is wholly in Your control, and he cannot pass the bounds of his allotted time --Job 14:5
Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. --Psalm 139:16
The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil. --Proverbs 16:4
A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure. --Proverbs 16:9
The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]. --Proverbs 16:33
Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. --Proverbs 19:21
Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way? --Proverbs 20:24
The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as are the watercourses; He turns it whichever way He wills. --Proverbs 21:1
Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. --Jeremiah 1:5
O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23
No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. --John 6:44
And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father. --John 6:65
Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! --Psalm 65:4a
This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men. --Acts 2:23
For in this city there actually met and plotted together against Your holy Child and Servant Jesus, Whom You consecrated by anointing, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and peoples of Israel, to carry out all that Your hand and Your will and purpose had predestined (predetermined) should occur. --Acts 4:27-28
And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). --Acts 13:48
And He made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men to settle on the face of the earth, having definitely determined [their] allotted periods of time and the fixed boundaries of their habitation (their settlements, lands, and abodes), --Acts 17:26
We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being]. --Romans 8:28-30
And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac, and the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them], it was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? --Romans 9:10-21
What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God's favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it). As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day. --Romans 11:7-8
But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased --Galations 1:15
[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight. --Phillippians 2:13
Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness. But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His firstfruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth. --2 Thessalonians 2:11-13
For [of course] every house is built and furnished by someone, but the Builder of all things and the Furnisher [of the entire equipment of all things] is God. --Hebrews 3:4
It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you. --1 Peter 1:20
That's more than 30 distinct passages from both the Old Testament and the New Testament that directly contradict your position, and I could note a couple dozen more than indirectly contradict your position.
So which Bible do YOU believe?
Axe Elf
Prophet
Good, 'cause I'm here to teach truth. Are you paying attention?
Axe Elf
Prophet
I claim no such thing. BOTH you and I have assumed the existence of a God for the purposes of discussing His omniscience.
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bicycle and prayed for forgiveness." --Emo Philips
Although some people do erroneously think that the purpose of prayer is to get what they want, in reality, praying and wishing are completely different. Jesus gave us the example of how to pray in the Lord's Prayer--"THY will be done," not, "MY will be done." The purpose of wishing is to get what you want. The purpose of prayer is to align your mind with God's purposes so that you can get the most out of the experiences He has created to you have.
Perfect!
Axe Elf
Prophet
To have a chance of proving that the Bible is not logical in its denial of free will, you would first have to show that predestination is not logical. Your only real hope of that is to deny God's omniscience and show Einstein to be mistaken in his understanding of time and space as two aspects of the same thing. Until then, yeah, you're just being silly.
Cary Cook
Member
I visited your site, watched the video, and agree with most of it. But I don't want to talk about particulars yet.
I can understand rebelling against the concept of BibleGod. BibleGod is:
1. rationally impossible (omnipotent but can't lie)
2. insane (designs people to think one way, then orders them to think another, then punishes them for not thinking what he never designed them to think)
3. unjust and evil relative to his creation
---a. rewards/punishes according to what is believed rather than moral/immoral actions
---b. punishes far more than offenses warrant
But then to express your rebellion, you choose a symbol right out of the Bible - Satan. You've chosen to fight bull**** with counter bull****, thereby increasing the bull**** in a world already clogged with bull****.
Why not walk away from the whole sewer and be a straight truth seeker?
Axe Elf
Prophet
Wow. I don't know where you got all of that, but it wasn't from the Bible. Virtually none of that is supported by scripture.
Well, I thought this was a more serious thread.
But anyway in my advaita view, the universe exists, beginning, middle and end in a timeless Now. It is all a thought-form of God. Time is just a relative illusion that we experience change in.
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
That you lack the faith to believe in an all powerful God is part of God's perfect plan, some call this original sin. The instant that God gifts us with faith we open our eyes to the realization that sin, death, and the power of the devil never really was. Such is the love of an all powerful God.
Satans_Serrated_Edge
Deicidal
Because 'truth seekers' are some of the most mind numbingly brain addled people on this planet.
Satan is a word, a bit of linguistics that to most of the world represents the other, the scorned, that which is forbidden. The reasons why I use this particular turn of phrase to the exclusion of some other are unpackaged there, partially so I can redirect people with surface level questions such as these...partially.
If you really want to know, read. If that's too much hassle then neither of us care enough to continue this line of dialogue.
bubbleguppy
Serial Forum Observer
Not that I personally believe in an omniscient deity, but I'd assume that if one could exist they would have the cognitive abilities needed to actually be omniscient and comprehend all of what being omniscient entails.
WalterTrull
Godfella
Hmm... perhaps I should have used "consciousness"?
I'm a mental universe kind of guy. No epiphenomenon, no brain state, no brain, just awareness.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
I apologize for my false assumptive comments, earlier. Mea Culpa.
*sigh*
It's what I get for rapidly replying to posts, without doing Due Diligence on the author.