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Omniscience is impossible.

shmogie

Well-Known Member
No-- I followed the entirety of your post, and as you outlined it? There cannot be any free will.

The key phrase in your narrative?

(paraphrasing) You stated that the outcome would always follow your god's plans.

There is only one (1) way for that to happen: If free will is eliminated in it's entirety.
I said that God could step into history AS HE CHOSE to produce an outcome. Free will is an individual thing. We can make all kinds of choices all the time totally on our own volition.

What He chooses to have occur on the macro scale has nothing to do with Him making choices on the micro scale. For the most part humanity does itś own thing with no intervention by God, the results of this are not mitigated. There have been times where He has exerted influence, like the creation of Israel, or the advent of Christ, but for the most part humanity goes along continually making choices and exercising free will. The universe operates within the laws of physics, and for now, humanity operates totally free outside the moral laws of God but within those physical laws. totally free to do otherwise.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Anything that knows everything also knows how it knows everything, and how it knows that, etc. ad infinitum. Infinite protraction is impossible; therefore omniscience is impossible.

Is it necessary for God to be omniscient or omnipotent to be?

From our perspective, since we/timespace here has a finite beginning, it is required only for God to pre-exist THIS beginning and know all.
 

Cary Cook

Member
My statement has been proven false by my friend Brady Lenardos, who wrote:

May I suggest a category mistake may be the answer. The difference between a potential infinite and an actual infinite may give the solution.

Your question supposes that God has numerous sequential answers to the questining. That would be a potential infinite sequence, and potential infinities are always finite in their tracking. For instance, counting numbers, no matter how long you count, wherever you stop and look, you are always at a finite number and can continue. Potential infinites can never become actual infinities. You can't count to the last number.

An actual infinite is already infinite; thus, there is no need to try to get to an end, as with a potential infinite. God can answer your question once, "because my knowledge is actually infinite, not potentially infinite." The questioning is over. If you ask him how he knows that, the reply is "Ditto." And it will be the same with continued questioning. Unlike the potential infinite of counting, where there is a new answer with every step of the sequence, with actual infinite knowledge, there is no sequence, the answer is part of the definition of an actual infinite.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Anything that knows everything also knows how it knows everything, and how it knows that, etc. ad infinitum. Infinite protraction is impossible; therefore omniscience is impossible.

Can God have a thought so complex that even She can't understand it?

Of course She can. The nature of being omnipotent is you exist in every possible way of being. Being omnipotent means you are not bounded by the laws of physics or logic. To think otherwise is projecting anthropomorphic limitations over God.
 
The difference between being aware of things and being awareness itself.
The latter thing is linguistically nonsensical. Awareness is defined as a state of knowledge about a person place idea etc..

If you ARE the state of awareness you can't be conscious, have agency or cause or effect anything.

So your god is an epiphenomenon of a brain state?
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
If god knows everything, then nothing is a surprise. If there exists a fact that god does not know, god cannot know about said fact-- because god knows everything.

Therefore? There IS something god does not know-- this hypothetical fact.

But you just said that God knows everything, so there does not exist a fact that God does not know, and therefore Him not knowing about something that doesn't exist isn't a problem.

It's hard to believe that silliness like this even merits consideration in a serious discussion.
 
But you just said that God knows everything, so there does not exist a fact that God does not know, and therefore Him not knowing about something that doesn't exist isn't a problem.

It's hard to believe that silliness like this even merits consideration in a serious discussion.
You consider this a serious conversation? I see this place(and religion in general) as a haven for some of the world's most devoted LARPers. I just can't take ideas about sky spirits and such seriously anymore.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Anything that knows everything also knows how it knows everything, and how it knows that, etc. ad infinitum. Infinite protraction is impossible; therefore omniscience is impossible.

Technically all God needs to know is everything we know or could know...how would we tell the difference if He or She didn't?

What God does or does not know about what we humans can never know is no business of ours unless it can be demonstrated or through awesome story telling creativity imagined...but then again it all is...
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Technically all God needs to know is everything we know or could know...how would we tell the difference if He or She didn't?

What God does or does not know about what we humans can never know is no business of ours unless it can be demonstrated or through awesome story telling creativity imagined...but then again it all is...

And how do we come to know that infinite protraction, or regress is not possible, anyway?
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
You consider this a serious conversation?

It's pretty serious to me, as it concerns one of my basic axioms that define God--omniscience.

I see this place(and religion in general) as a haven for some of the world's most devoted LARPers. I just can't take ideas about sky spirits and such seriously anymore.

I'm sorry to hear that. I will try to refrain from taking your comments about sky spirits and such seriously in the future.
 
It's pretty serious to me, as it concerns one of my basic axioms that define God--omniscience.



I'm sorry to hear that. I will try to refrain from taking your comments about sky spirits and such seriously in the future.

I wonder if you take seriously all superstitious claims seriously, or only your preferred ones?
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
I wonder if you take seriously all superstitious claims seriously, or only your preferred ones?

If they are rational, I take them seriously and literally. If they are irrational but instructive, I take them seriously but not literally. If they are irrational nonsense, I disregard them entirely.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I said that God could step into history AS HE CHOSE to produce an outcome. Free will is an individual thing. We can make all kinds of choices all the time totally on our own volition.

What He chooses to have occur on the macro scale has nothing to do with Him making choices on the micro scale. For the most part humanity does itś own thing with no intervention by God, the results of this are not mitigated. There have been times where He has exerted influence, like the creation of Israel, or the advent of Christ, but for the most part humanity goes along continually making choices and exercising free will. The universe operates within the laws of physics, and for now, humanity operates totally free outside the moral laws of God but within those physical laws. totally free to do otherwise.

You can spin that however you like.

But: Free Will cannot exist, if the ONE AND ONLY future exists in the knowledge/knowing of an ALL POWERFUL being.

Once god KNOWS what is going to happen? It pretty much HAS to happen-- and no free will is permitted.

ONLY if the future is unknown and UNKNOWABLE? Can we have free will.

That wipes out all ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL beings-- they cannot exist if free will exists.

And the opposite, of course.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
But you just said that God knows everything, so there does not exist a fact that God does not know, and therefore Him not knowing about something that doesn't exist isn't a problem.

It's hard to believe that silliness like this even merits consideration in a serious discussion.

Oh I agree: I see every single god-claim, ever, as silliness writ large-scale.

Yet-- not only do people take such things seriously? They go out and murder people over it...!

And fight wars. And other nasty things too...
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Oh I agree: I see every single god-claim, ever, as silliness writ large-scale.

Yet-- not only do people take such things seriously? They go out and murder people over it...!

And fight wars. And other nasty things too...

All right, then let me characterize yours as an irrational god-claim, as opposed to the rational ones suitable for a serious discussion.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
But: Free Will cannot exist, if the ONE AND ONLY future exists in the knowledge/knowing of an ALL POWERFUL being.

Once god KNOWS what is going to happen? It pretty much HAS to happen-- and no free will is permitted.

According to literally dozens of Bible verses, this is exactly the case.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
You can spin that however you like.

But: Free Will cannot exist, if the ONE AND ONLY future exists in the knowledge/knowing of an ALL POWERFUL being.

Once god KNOWS what is going to happen? It pretty much HAS to happen-- and no free will is permitted.

ONLY if the future is unknown and UNKNOWABLE? Can we have free will.

That wipes out all ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL beings-- they cannot exist if free will exists.

And the opposite, of course.
Sigh, omnipotence has nothing to do with omniscience. Omnipotence has nothing to do with free will. God, by choice or design does not know the choices individuals will make, especially regarding the ultimate choice. There is no pre knowledge, there is no predestination as far as an individual salvation, there is only the total freedom of choice, free will.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
My statement has been proven false by my friend Brady Lenardos, who wrote:

May I suggest a category mistake may be the answer. The difference between a potential infinite and an actual infinite may give the solution.

Your question supposes that God has numerous sequential answers to the questining. That would be a potential infinite sequence, and potential infinities are always finite in their tracking. For instance, counting numbers, no matter how long you count, wherever you stop and look, you are always at a finite number and can continue. Potential infinites can never become actual infinities. You can't count to the last number.

An actual infinite is already infinite; thus, there is no need to try to get to an end, as with a potential infinite. God can answer your question once, "because my knowledge is actually infinite, not potentially infinite." The questioning is over. If you ask him how he knows that, the reply is "Ditto." And it will be the same with continued questioning. Unlike the potential infinite of counting, where there is a new answer with every step of the sequence, with actual infinite knowledge, there is no sequence, the answer is part of the definition of an actual infinite.
Excellent !
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Sigh, omnipotence has nothing to do with omniscience. Omnipotence has nothing to do with free will. God, by choice or design does not know the choices individuals will make, especially regarding the ultimate choice. There is no pre knowledge, there is no predestination as far as an individual salvation, there is only the total freedom of choice, free will.

So you're a Christian, but not a Bible believer?
 
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