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Omniscience is impossible.

Cary Cook

Member
That is logically true.

It's also true that were he omniscient, he could not also be omnipotent. If he knows how every detail of the future pans out that means he is incapable of changing anything. An omniscient god is more like an observer watching a movie.
You are perfectly correct.

That makes your identification with the biblical Satan very depressing to me. I know the world is outrageously stupid, but giving up on the possibility of reason and sanity could be a tragic waste of a good mind.
 

Cary Cook

Member
I don't see why it's an infinite regression. If God knows how He knows everything, then that already includes EVERYTHING, including that. So there's no need to go chasing rabbits; knowing how He knows everything is just a part of the "Everything" that He already knows, you know?

Parenthetically, I don't see why infinite regression is impossible, either. Isn't that why we have calculus?
I admit that you can go that way. But once you do, you're asserting a magic God that can do the illogical, make up whatever logic he wants, and be so rationally contradictory that one could say anything about him, and there is no point in saying anything.

But maybe that's what you mean by calling yourself a zen Xian.
 

Cary Cook

Member
There is only one premise which is oneness, starting from a singularity to what we call the "uni"verse. The logical implications easily follow.
Fine. Assert monism. Then assert anything you like, and say it logically follows from it. I've done enough of that discussion to have no further use for it. Have a last word if you want one.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Fine. Assert monism. Then assert anything you like, and say it logically follows from it. I've done enough of that discussion to have no further use for it. Have a last word if you want one.
Your monistic brain in the form of ego can convince you that your an individual but the science will show you that its an illusion and your actually multicellular. I can assert things but would rather share understanding.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
I admit that you can go that way. But once you do, you're asserting a magic God that can do the illogical, make up whatever logic he wants, and be so rationally contradictory that one could say anything about him, and there is no point in saying anything.

But maybe that's what you mean by calling yourself a zen Xian.

I don't believe that all that is implied by omniscience, because I can imagine an omniscient God Who is also rational. But who wants a God Who is bound by the laws of His creation? Any God worth His salt pretty much HAS to be "magic," no? Telling a mountain to get up and move into the ocean is pretty illogical, isn't it? I mean, that's kind of the definition of a miracle--something for which there is no logical/rational explanation.

I suppose there is some zen in understanding that the God that can be explained is not the true God, so there's really no point in saying anything, but that ruins all the fun of trying.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Anything that knows everything also knows how it knows everything, and how it knows that, etc. ad infinitum. Infinite protraction is impossible; therefore omniscience is impossible.


There are those who will say it's possible, But then what do they know, When they are only told by someone else it's possible to know everything.

But then there's nothing in the Bible that says God is all knowing.

The closest the bible does come is in the book of Revelation 19:6, But then this only says God is Omnipotent, Which only means that God is all powerful.
But nothing about God as being all knowing as alot people are taught, Which is nothing more than a false teaching of man's.

You will find in the book of Matthew 28:18, Where Jesus said--"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth"

But nothing about as being all knowing.

So where do people get this from, No other place but from their pastors, and then their off running with what ever their pastors tell them and then they go about telling other people that God is all knowing, Unto which they themselves do not even know if God is all knowing only what their Pastor's have told them. Without even checking it out if the Bible even supports such a teaching.

But then people will go about trying to twist the bible into what they would like it to say, just to support their agenda.
But upon searching it out, the bible makes no such claim, as they would like the Bible to do.

That's like people with their Rapture Theory, When in fact there's no place in the Bible to support this claim either.

Their Rapture can not happen until the last Prophecy of the book of Revelation happens first, But then by the time the last Prophecy of Revelation happens, the Tribulation is over,
So what good is the Rapture going to do.

The whole point of their Rapture Theory, is to Rapture people out before the Tribulation and not after the Tribulation is over.

But anyway, just like their Rapture Theory, there is no where in the Bible that supports God as being all knowing, As they could only wish the bible did.
Oh they'll try to pick out a verse here and there and try to imply that it means God is all knowing. But upon closely examination of the said verse, it doesn't say at all,
that God as being all knowing.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Anything that knows everything also knows how it knows everything, and how it knows that, etc. ad infinitum. Infinite protraction is impossible; therefore omniscience is impossible.
In fairyland, all things are possible.

You forget that omnipotence has priority over omniscience. For instance, if you're omnipotent, and you want to be omniscient, you just snap your fingers and bingo!

On the face of it, even omnipotence isn't perfect. There are things you still can't do, like make a perfect copy of yourself and coexist with it.

But if you had real omnipotence, it wouldn't be a problem, though I'm not sure how it wouldn't be.

Still, that's the special thing about fairyland.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Anything that knows everything also knows how it knows everything, and how it knows that, etc. ad infinitum. Infinite protraction is impossible; therefore omniscience is impossible.

unfortunately you presume that the all knows something else besides itself. the all would know itself; if it is the all. if it isn't aware of itself, it wouldn't know everything at all but might know something as other than self. the all transcends space and time, being the all in being the infinite now, in all places at all times.

the universe expands and contracts infinitely, because for every action there is an opposite but equal reaction. when something arises then something falls. so the universe can infinitely protract but it must also infinitely subtract ad infinitum. now you simply have to ask yourself, "is the universe, or the ALL conscious"?

obviously intelligence exists, the no-hiding theorem refutes your claim.

know thyself


"The Master took the high seat in the Hall. He said: 'on your lump of red flesh
is a true man without rank who is always going in and out of the face of every one of you.
Those who have not yet proved him, look, look!" (Discourse III) - lin-chi
 
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You are perfectly correct.

That makes your identification with the biblical Satan very depressing to me. I know the world is outrageously stupid, but giving up on the possibility of reason and sanity could be a tragic waste of a good mind.

My identification with Satan probably isn't what you think. Click on the link in my signature if you care to pursue this.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You're claiming not only omniscience, but magic omniscience.
And "why" is not part of the issue.
Why are you calling it 'magic'?

I happen to believe the One consciousness (God/Brahman) created the universe as a thought form. What could God not know?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I don't see why it's an infinite regression. If God knows how He knows everything, then that already includes EVERYTHING, including that. So there's no need to go chasing rabbits; knowing how He knows everything is just a part of the "Everything" that He already knows, you know?

Parenthetically, I don't see why infinite regression is impossible, either. Isn't that why we have calculus?


If god knows everything, then nothing is a surprise. If there exists a fact that god does not know, god cannot know about said fact-- because god knows everything.

Therefore? There IS something god does not know-- this hypothetical fact.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I've actually explained this before. Omnipotence involves the ability to add or take away power. Otherwise, it cannot be said that you are omnipotent, because there is something you cannot do (limit yourself).

Which is why nothing can actually sustain omnipotence. Once a Chaotic Universe is created? That releases pretty much all the power the creator once had, into the chaos of the universe itself.

ooops!

The ONLY way an omnipotent being can remain so? Is if it is the only thing in existence.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
There is a school of Christian thought that holds that God is not omniscient, it is called the Open View of God. Though not knowing what hasn´t happened yet ( except when He reaches into history as in prophecy). He is perfectly prepared to deal as he chooses with what could occur. He knows every possibility, every option, every reaction. His purpose cannot be thwarted by whatever occurs, In addition, he knows humans, their thought processes their propensities, perfectly. Finally, his omnipotence can be used to manipulate events as he chooses to bring about the results he chooses. If God knows everything before it occurs, free will is an illusion, one must do exactly as God knew one would do a trillion years before. Everything is a movie God has seen before, it doesn´t change.

So. Free Will is Right Out in this scenario?

Okay. It's also impossible with an omnipowerful god too, so ...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
please re read what I posted, free will isn´t out, it is absolutely in, that is the point.

No-- I followed the entirety of your post, and as you outlined it? There cannot be any free will.

The key phrase in your narrative?

(paraphrasing) You stated that the outcome would always follow your god's plans.

There is only one (1) way for that to happen: If free will is eliminated in it's entirety.
 
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