Very provocative. I know about that chapter in Ephesians. I don't think there's anything like that in the Tora. I think there's only one verse in the rest of the OT, and that's in Jeremiah about being known before he was born. So that one verse in Jeremiah is dwarfed by many many more that explicitly talk about choice/free will.
(Jews hold that the Tora is much more important than the rest of the OT)
You're thinking of Jeremiah 1:5.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
I wouldn't even say that is the strongest evidence of predestination in the Book of Jeremiah, let alone the Old Testament--at least of predestination on a universal scale (it could just apply to Jeremiah as a special case). But you're right, there is very little in the Torah that could be construed as definitive evidence of universal predestination either, at least no stronger evidence than that verse in Jeremiah.
There are a LOT of passages in Exodus (4:21, 7:3, 7:13, 9:12, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8) regarding God hardening Pharaoh's heart in one way or another, and basically playing him like a puppeteer plays a puppet, but again, these could be special cases of God intervening, rather than indications of general predestination. There are also a few indications in Exodus (3:21, 11:3, 12:36) that God made the Egyptians "favor" His people, but again, it could just be a special intervention. Then there's another isolated incident in Deuteronomy (2:30) of God hardening a king's heart for one reason or another--but still, not really evidence of general predestination.
But here are a few passages from the Old Testament that ARE more indicative of a God Who is in control of everything (the "wisdom of Solomon" is bursting with them):
Since a man's days are already determined, and the number of his months is wholly in Your control, and he cannot pass the bounds of his allotted time --Job 14:5
The Lord looks from heaven, He beholds all the sons of men; from His dwelling place He looks [intently] upon all the inhabitants of the earth--He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings. --Psalm 33:13-15
Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! --Psalm 65:4a
Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. --Psalm 139:16
The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil. --Proverbs 16:4
A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure. --Proverbs 16:9
The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]. --Proverbs 16:33
Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. --Proverbs 19:21
Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way? --Proverbs 20:24
The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as are the watercourses; He turns it whichever way He wills. --Proverbs 21:1
And better evidence of general predestination from the book of Jeremiah:
O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23
Anyway, the Ephesians predestination stuff seems to me to fit well with the 'hard' sayings I cited in my opening post. Both seem to me to be outrageous (Paul's 'foolishness'?), but I have to respect the boldness of them. It feels like going all in with only an Ace high.
Well, there are a LOT of verses from the New Testament that speak of general predestination, from the words of Jesus to the Revelation of John, so it's not just "Paui's foolishness"; it's corroborated in dozens of passages. I can cite those for you if you like, although later on you seem to acknowledge that the New Testament talks a lot about predestination, so I'll leave it up to you if you'd like to request the specific verses or not. I do warn you, though, there are a few pages of them.
You say you are 'smart' because you understand this. I'd like to hear more of your 'smartness' on this predestination subject. I'd like to be smart too (or is it, I'd like to be foolish?)
No, you have it backwards. I don't say I am smart because I understand this, I say that I understand this because I am smart--or, at least because understanding the divine will and purpose (prophecy) is my spiritual gift. In any case, the idea that the Bible speaks to different levels of comprehension is not my own; it's stated explicitly in 1 Corinthians 2:6a.
"Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden)"
The same concept of basic concepts versus advanced knowledge is reiterated a chapter later, in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2.
"However, brethren, I could not talk to you as to spiritual [men], but as to nonspiritual [men of the flesh, in whom the carnal nature predominates], as to mere infants [in the new life] in Christ [unable to talk yet!] I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not yet strong enough [to be ready for it]; but even yet you are not strong enough [to be ready for it]"
So if all you can do is try to be good by following rules, then here's the Law, go follow the rules (good luck with that). If you can understand the abstract principles behind the rules, then love God and love others and you will fulfill the Law automatically. If you can understand that it's not about what you choose to do so much as what God has created you to do, then you can understand that anybody who was created to seek God by trying to follow the rules or who was created to seek God by trying to love God and others has probably been created for salvation.
I know the basic 'God is omniscient' argument. Is that what you mean?
If that's what you mean, I try not to think about it, although I can't refute it.
LOL Well, at least that's honest. The argument from omniscience is legitimate, but it's dependent upon God being omniscient. Since we can't really demonstrate God's omniscience, then one can retain their free will by denying God's omniscience. For me, a better argument from reason lies in the fact that Einstein, among others, have shown us--that space and time are not two separate things, but merely two aspects of the same thing--spacetime. So if we accept that God created the universe--all of space--then we are forced to accept that God created all of time with it; every moment structured just as deliberately as every millimeter.
I guess one big problem for me (one big reason I can never be a Christian) is that the NT says that it's all predestined AND it talks about hell a lot-- two things the OT is almost silent on. I 'can't' worship a God who predestines one to hell and heaven (if that's what Ephesians is doing). But I'm willing to hear anything you can say in defense of it
Well first of all, the "hell" that is talked about in the New Testament isn't the one that pop culture would have you believe is waiting for you. Revelation 20:10-15 makes it pretty clear that the only ones who will be tortured day and night for ever and ever are the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Everyone else who was not predestined for salvation by having their name recorded in the Book of Life from the dawn of time is thrown into the lake of fire to suffer "the second death."
"Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages). Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence
and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried
and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works]. Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire."
The first death destroys the body, the second death destroys the soul (that which makes you "you"--your identity), and the spirit (the life force that makes inanimate matter alive) returns to its source--God. So everyone who wasn't created for salvation merely ceases to exist (which is basically what most of the people who weren't created for salvation believe is what happens when they die anyway, so everybody gets what they expect). Maybe that will make it seem less like God is just being sadistic by creating some people for destruction. In any case, there is a lengthy passage from Romans that explains it pretty clearly.
"And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac, and the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them], it was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?"
--Romans 9:10-21
(All citations are from the Amplified Bible.)