Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

[Hockeycowboy]

Everybody go to a search engine and put in JW brainwashing.
Huh? Accountable to a god? I don't believe in an afterlife anyway and you said when I die I just stay dead so what am I supposed to feel threatened by?

Wow! Reading your earlier posts, I thought you might be willing to understand Deeje and some things she was saying about the Scriptures that you seemed to reason on, and rationalize.

But I guess not, eh?

Your free will, your free choice.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow! Reading your earlier posts, I thought you might be willing to understand Deeje and some things she was saying about the Scriptures that you seemed to reason on, and rationalize.

But I guess not, eh?

Your free will, your free choice.

Sorry, but for a rational person belief is not a choice. By claiming that belief is a choice you are in effect claiming to an irrational thought process.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I would preferred total oblivion or even obliteration than spending eternity with Deeje and the likes.

I think we are coming close to the definition of Hell, as Sartre once pointed out - in the play No Exit, I believe - Hell is often other people.

 

[sayak83]

Cladking don’t know what he is talking about. He wouldn’t know Egyptology if it was right in front of him.

What is with creationists, sayak83? They have to claim on things that they clearly don’t understand.

Its against the rules to discuss other folks in third person.

 

[sayak83]

Balance is the key. We must equip our children to understand that all humans have beliefs, and they have the free will to express them....for now. But unlike those who disparage Bible believers as uneducated morons, Christian parents need to teach their children the truth. That truth is buried under a pile of garbage and it takes some time and effort to sort out which is which. They will figure it out for themselves.



No, I'm sorry but the two are completely incompatible. We have to choose. There is no safe middle ground here....a foot in both camps is not possible. Those who think so are in for a rude shock IMO.



If there is a course on comparative religions then I believe that is a good thing. We need to understand what others believe if we are to converse with them in a mature and balanced way.



Spirituality is like a muscle, not a drug. If it is not exercised, it atrophies and becomes useless. Children are the most spiritual creatures on earth, but if that spirituality is not nurtured, it becomes deactivated. Later in life though, it can be kick started again and they can embark on their own quest for meaning to their existence.



I don't just have a hope for life after death, which I believe will be achieved by resurrection, but I also have the hope of living through the end of this old world system and on into the new one.
My life without hope of something better than this poor excuse for an existence is based on what my heart tells me. This is not the life I was designed for....and squabbling humans will never provide it. I have great expectations for the future, why would I be depressed? Depression make people feel hopeless. What hope have unbelievers got? Depending on man for their future is not exactly an exciting prospect given his track record.

Your hope of this world ending and a new world coming is a pipe dream. This is the world where you, your children, grandchildren.. too the umpteenth generation will live in, as long as humanity exists as a species. There will be no discontinuity... none... till 4 more billion years pass and the earth gets scorched by the swelling sun.
If what I say come to pass, as it surely will, then does that thought depress you?

 

[Mock Turtle]

You appear to be very unbalanced in your approach to things here.
Do you think it is wrong to teach your children what you believe to be true? Should you have the freedom to do so? Is that child abuse?

Well, get your facts right rather than getting your knickers all twisted. I was referring to faith schools and the teaching of one faith over all others. Yes, it is abuse when children are essentially indoctrinated with something they have no power to resist, and where it might affect their lives in the future - detrimentally too. We obviously can't stop parents trying to imbue children with their (Irrational ) beliefs but we should be capable of keeping it out of schools - where we would hope they are taught to think for themselves and to look at proper evidence rather than just claims.

No child remains a child. They grow up, and despite any efforts of parents, they turn into adults with a mind of their own. What we teach them can have a bearing on what direction they take, but kids are not stupid. They learn way more from our example than from anything we say. Regardless of whether we teach them religion or atheism (or anything in between) their hypocrisy meter will figure out if we practice what we preach.

Really? And you are a good example of this?

Being raised in a household where faith in God is practised is no guarantee that children will follow in their parents footsteps, but at least they will have something to balance their school education which will be saturated with the teaching of evolution.

Not in most schools I would think, apart from biology perhaps and the older pupils.

Balance is the key....not indoctrination. Give kids enough credit to work things out for themselves without fear of parents going ballistic if they choose a different path. We are all individuals, so the education we give our children must be balanced and most of all, based on love, not fear.

Rubbish. What balance is there in Creationism - a very implausible account based on one particular religious belief - just ludicrous.

Since evolution is not "evidentially backed" in any real way, teaching children only one scenario, when there is no proof that it is even correct, is brainwashing.

More rubbish - much more evidentially based than anything else.

What dreadful thing happens to people of faith? They are statistically happier and healthier than atheists who have no hope that anything will improve in their completely materialistic world. This life is all they have and if they have messed it up, they will never get a chance to do it better. God gives us that opportunity....but most people will throw it back in his face. Their choice.

I think a sense of community might explain much of this, if it is true, and there are other considerations - such as, the religious being no more moral than non-believers, probably being less realistic about things, and having more rigid views - like you. All the rest there is just rubbish too - what do you know about the lives of the non-religious apart from projection. Grow up!

I know what I chose and my children have chosen the same path....some even left that path only to find heartache and disappointment out there in the world, and have returned to the faith. They have vowed never to go back to that godless world. It is an empty and meaningless existence in our view. Without meaning and purpose, what are we really?

Like many of the religious passing on their nonsense to their offspring. And so it goes on - but it's getting better - since religious belief is declining in the areas where it matters - the better educated and those having the freedom to choose their beliefs!

 

[Deeje]

The only indoctrination I received came from church teachings and church interpretation of the bible, and the New Testament itself.

Well that's is your first problem right there. If you accepted Christendom's version of events, no wonder nothing made sense. Pity you threw the baby out with the bathwater.

So in order to understand evolution, I had borrowed my cousin’s old uni biology textbook......

That’s how I learned evolution. I may be no expert in evolution or the biology, but at the very least, I can understand what everyone is talking about. Also with my background in civil engineering and computer science, I have more than solid grounding in testing, measuring, detecting, finding evidences and experiments, especially since both courses require me to understand physics, and it is applied physics, not theoretical physics.

OK, so your background in engineering and testing should have led you to understand that there is no test for macro-evolution. There can never be a test for what happened 35 million years ago.

Experiments conducted revealed that adaptation in the form of small changes within the taxonomy of a single creature produced cosmetic changes only. New varieties of the same creature were seen but nothing more. Those changes facilitated only changes that would accommodate a new environment or a different food source. Adaptation does not prove macro-evolution. Science wants it to, but it cannot force one to produce the other except by suggestion. If you have the evidence that I am wrong, please produce it.

Like I said, I am no expert in biology, but I know enough about science and know enough about testings and evidences, to know when you are talking BS, Deeje.

I don't think you do....you just assume that science doesn't fudge things. I assure you that they do.
Your conditioning makes you believe everything they say because it suits you to believe it. Most people accept it so it can't be wrong?......it can you know.

And there is no indoctrination involved with me learning evolution, and I was never under any pressures by biologists, so you are basically using straw man.

You are so unbelievably dishonest, by using straw man tactics.

Oh please gnostic...enough with the accusations of dishonesty and the same old strawman. Go over what I have said and point out the dishonesty and the strawman.

I would preferred total oblivion or even obliteration than spending eternity with Deeje and the likes.

God knows exactly what we are and our end will be according to our works. Its really that simple. You can't make God disappear except in your own mind. His plans will go ahead with us or without us.

You ditched God for a more believable scenario and I'm sure he is aware of it. You will never be forced to do anything against your will. I promise. You will get what you ask for.

 

[Deeje]

Your hope of this world ending and a new world coming is a pipe dream. This is the world where you, your children, grandchildren.. too the umpteenth generation will live in, as long as humanity exists as a species. There will be no discontinuity... none... till 4 more billion years pass and the earth gets scorched by the swelling sun.
If what I say come to pass, as it surely will, then does that thought depress you?

Depress me? Why would it. It would only depress me if I believed it.
You are extremely optimistic if you believe that man will not destroy all life on earth in the not too distant future.
How much is science playing a role in his mismanagement?

Time will tell I guess, won't it?

 

[Mock Turtle]

You are extremely optimistic if you believe that man will not destroy all life on earth in the not too distant future.

Perhaps this is why you have such ludicrous views - you have been indoctrinated into believing such tripe. Our future is ours to decide - me might make a mess of it and we might not. But believing the former will undoubtedly help that to happen!

Have some courage Deeje. -- and a more open mind.

 

[sayak83]

Depress me? Why would it. It would only depress me if I believed it.
You are extremely optimistic if you believe that man will not destroy all life on earth in the not too distant future.
How much is science playing a role in his mismanagement?

Time will tell I guess, won't it?

So, you would be depressed if it were true?
Man won't destroy life at all. Man will spread life to new planets and star systems over the millions of years. Its you who believe that the world is rotten and hence cling onto a false ideology that shores up your alienation from the world.

 

[Deeje]

Well, get your facts right rather than getting your knickers all twisted. I was referring to faith schools and the teaching of one faith over all others.

Who is getting their knickers twisted? Is it child abuse when a parent destroys God in a child's mind before they grow up and are old enough to make their own choices? They might keep Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny but don't mention God...he's not real. It might damage your mind to believe in myths.

Yes, it is abuse when children are essentially indoctrinated with something they have no power to resist, and where it might affect their lives in the future - detrimentally too.

And you don't think atheism can be just as detrimental? Really? You think kids have the power to resist what is taught in the education system?

We obviously can't stop parents trying to imbue children with their (Irrational ) beliefs but we should be capable of keeping it out of schools - where we would hope they are taught to think for themselves and to look at proper evidence rather than just claims.

And yet this is exactly what schools do to kids every day of the week. Kids are fed science and history and a whole lot of things that are not based on truth. They are indoctrinated with hand on the heart patriotism that may lead them to commit crimes against humanity in a war if their government asked them to.
If you want kids to think for themselves then tell them the truth, not guesswork disguised as science.

Really? And you are a good example of this?

I don't know...are you?

Not in most schools I would think, apart from biology perhaps and the older pupils.

What kind of school system are we talking about here? In Australia kids are taught evolution as fact from the very first years of High School. It is carried on through to year 12 and kids have exam questions on evolution as if there is no room to dispute its authenticity. They lose marks if the answers are not in agreement with what is taught. It has basically been that way since I was in high school. They carry what they have been indoctrinated to think right on to university. Anything other than godless evolution is held up to scorn and ridicule by teachers so most kids won't even go there. Where is the balance?

What balance is there in Creationism - a very implausible account based on one particular religious belief - just ludicrous.

In your opinion anything could be implausible....even ludicrous. But put downs don't make something correct. Not everyone thinks you are correct in your assumptions. Science is not correct in theirs IMO. You can believe whatever you wish....it doesn't make it true.

much more evidentially based than anything else.

No its not....do your homework. Its not hard to spot the assumptions and suggestions and conjecture if you really read what they say. There is no evidence that is substantive.....there is no proof in science. This is what they tell me....so what are their conclusions based on? Guesswork. How do you come to your own conclusions?.....are you persuaded by the scientists who are handing you nothing but their wishful thinking? Why do you trust them? Why do you assume that what they assume is correct? Look at their evidence and see for yourself. It has no backing.....none of it is real.

 

[Deeje]

So, you would be depressed if it were true?
Man won't destroy life at all.

And this confidence in man comes from his track record?

In recent times we had two nuclear powered nations facing off in what could have resulted in an horrific nuclear exchange....and you have confidence in these men? Seriously?

Man will spread life to new planets and star systems over the millions of years.

The only reason that man is exploring the universe looking for other planets is because he is already well on the way to ruining this one. He wants somewhere to escape to when it all goes pear shaped. All it takes is two ego driven political leaders to push each other over the edge. We have no say...so who will stop it?

Its you who believe that the world is rotten and hence cling onto a false ideology that shores up your alienation from the world.

I don't just 'believe' that the world is rotten...I KNOW it is. There is not a single governmental system run by humans that is not corrupt. Some are just better at hiding it is all. And some people swallow the propaganda like cool-ade. Faith in man will always lead to disappointment.

I am no part of the world because Jesus taught us to have as little to do with it as possible. I am glad to be an alien in this world, because if I were part of it, I would be ashamed of myself. I loathe it and will rejoice at its passing. I long for the new world to come. That is where my heart is and that is where my God is. Your gods may lead you elsewhere.

I believe we will soon see whose gods are telling the truth.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Who is getting their knickers twisted? Is it child abuse when a parent destroys God in a child's mind before they grow up and are old enough to make their own choices? They might keep Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny but don't mention God...he's not real. It might damage your mind to believe in myths.

Oh really! God doesn't exist in a child's mind until put there by an inappropriate adult - one already so conditioned.

And you don't think atheism can be just as detrimental? Really? You think kids have the power to resist what is taught in the education system?

I don't know about where you live, but I doubt such is taught in UK schools, and rather having an open mind is more important. Which is why I am so against religious indoctrination in schools - they just foster division - besides being delusional.

And yet this is exactly what schools do to kids every day of the week. Kids are fed science and history and a whole lot of things that are not based on truth. They are indoctrinated with hand on the heart patriotism that may lead them to commit crimes against humanity in a war if their government asked them to.
If you want kids to think for themselves then tell them the truth, not guesswork disguised as science.

I can't comment on the quality of education these days - being 55 years since I sampled any - but I doubt science is depicted such. Perhaps you just have an issue with your religious beliefs - drop them and look again.

What kind of school system are we talking about here? In Australia kids are taught evolution as fact from the very first years of High School. It is carried on through to year 12 and kids have exam questions on evolution as if there is no room to dispute its authenticity. They lose marks if the answers are not in agreement with what is taught. It has basically been that way since I was in high school. They carry what they have been indoctrinated to think right on to university. Anything other than godless evolution is held up to scorn and ridicule by teachers so most kids won't even go there. Where is the balance?

Perhaps because it is the best available explanation, and religious belief - of which there are numerous - will rather cloud the picture somewhat - not to mention poisoning the well and clouding their judgment.

No its not....do your homework. Its not hard to spot the assumptions and suggestions and conjecture if you really read what they say. There is no evidence that is substantive.....there is no proof in science. This is what they tell me....so what are their conclusions based on? Guesswork. How do you come to your own conclusions?.....are you persuaded by the scientists who are handing you nothing but their wishful thinking? Why do you trust them? Why do you assume that what they assume is correct? Look at their evidence and see for yourself. It has no backing.....none of it is real.

Get back on the wheel - just recycling the same old garbage. The vast majority of scientifically trained individuals accept the theory of evolution to be essentially correct - along with the rest of us who can't really see any other plausible alternative explanations. End of.

 

[sayak83]

And this confidence in man comes from his track record?

In recent times we had two nuclear powered nations facing off in what could have resulted in an horrific nuclear exchange....and you have confidence in these men? Seriously?



The only reason that man is exploring the universe looking for other planets is because he is already well on the way to ruining this one. He wants somewhere to escape to when it all goes pear shaped. All it takes is two ego driven political leaders to push each other over the edge. We have no say...so who will stop it?



I don't just 'believe' that the world is rotten...I KNOW it is. There is not a single governmental system run by humans that is not corrupt. Some are just better at hiding it is all. And some people swallow the propaganda like cool-ade. Faith in man will always lead to disappointment.

I am no part of the world because Jesus taught us to have as little to do with it as possible. I am glad to be an alien in this world, because if I were part of it, I would be ashamed of myself. I loathe it and will rejoice at its passing. I long for the new world to come. That is where my heart is and that is where my God is. Your gods may lead you elsewhere.

I believe we will soon see whose gods are telling the truth.

That soon of yours will never come. Though I foresee you falling for these kinds of false ideologies in your next lifetime as well.

 

[Mock Turtle]

And this confidence in man comes from his track record?

Last time I looked we were still here - otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. Stop being so pessimistic! On the Beach was fiction after all!

 

[cladking]

(Deeje)God knows exactly what we are and our end will be according to our works. Its really that simple. You can't make God disappear except in your own mind. His plans will go ahead with us or without us.

We are rushing headlong toward extinction. We can't even see the challenges before us.

(Mostlyharmlesstoo) I can't comment on the quality of education these days - being 55 years since I sampled any - but I doubt science is depicted such. Perhaps you just have an issue with your religious beliefs - drop them and look again.

One of the principle challenges facing us is that the educational system has failed utterly. Not only do most inner city boys fail to learn to read and write but children everywhere get more indoctrination and less learning. They usually never learn to think for themselves. This is caused by a lack of responsibility in those who operate the schools and lack of teaching responsibility.

We now graduate scientists who don't know how science works or what results mean. Of course this has been a problem for 500 years but it's getting worse.

 

[Mock Turtle]

We are rushing headlong toward extinction. We can't even see the challenges before us.

I think many of us can see the challenges and they are mostly related to false religious beliefs. How many prophesies have come and gone? What a load of horse manure! sheep led by donkeys!

 

[cladking]

I think many of us can see the challenges and they are mostly related to false religious beliefs. How many prophesies have come and gone? What a load of horse manure! sheep led by donkeys!

There is less religion than ever before today (our species). Religion is neither the problem nor the solution. The problem is poor understanding of science. The problem is failure to teach metaphysics and excessive specialization.

And this is where the belief in "evolution" arose.

 

[Mock Turtle]

There is less religion than ever before today (our species). Religion is neither the problem nor the solution. The problem is poor understanding of science. The problem is failure to teach metaphysics and excessive specialization.

And this is where the belief in "evolution" arose.

But you have to admit there are an awful number of such prophesies that have just passed into history with not even a cloud darkening the skies.

 

[ArtieE]

That soon of yours will never come. Though I foresee you falling for these kinds of false ideologies in your next lifetime as well.

Not at all. In her next life she is bound to be an atheist if all her talk about balance pans out.