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Fallen Angels

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Are we all fallen angels; if we descended from heaven and are to ascend to heaven?


Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
If Jesus is the only winner who went to heaven maybe we ought to forget the whole loser deal, and enjoy life on earth till we have to pack our bags for hell upon death.

yoke = yoga

yoke

yoga

Matthew 11:28-30
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
I see there, that this a confusion of sheep and cattle,
and a very large variance in the size of one's yokes !
One must measure the immensity of one's burden to share that yoke,
doesn't one ?
I don't really know...I'm just guessing.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Are we all fallen angels; if we descended from heaven and are to ascend to heaven?

No, we are not fallen angels. We are humans, unique among the created beings for being created in the triune image of God, with a mind/soul (Father), a body (Son) and a Spirit. Angels and demons have spirit and soul, animals have bodies and spirit, but we are the only critters to share all three aspects with God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Yes, our bodies are mortal and are destroyed in the first death (what we usually call death), and our spirit is immortal (returning to its source--God--upon our death), but our souls need to be saved, or they will perish in the second death (Rev. 20:14).

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

That's because people don't go to heaven when they die. Nobody you know who has died is in heaven. They are currently sleeping in their graves, until they will be resurrected for judgement. Of course, to the dead person, it seems like an instant process (much like the first 13 billion years of the universe's existence went by without your notice), but for us still trapped in the confines of spacetime, they are just dead.

Now AFTER the resurrection, that's when the pearly gates will be open for business.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
No, we are not fallen angels. We are humans, unique among the created beings for being created in the triune image of God, with a mind/soul (Father), a body (Son) and a Spirit. Angels and demons have spirit and soul, animals have bodies and spirit, but we are the only critters to share all three aspects with God.

so you don't agree that these are angels?


John 1:51
He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’ the Son of Man.”

you don't believe the Spirit enters through the fontanel?



Yes, our bodies are mortal and are destroyed in the first death (what we usually call death), and our spirit is immortal (returning to its source--God--upon our death), but our souls need to be saved, or they will perish in the second death (Rev. 20:14).

in hebrew a spirit is without an earthly, or carnal body. a soul, has a carnal body. you seem to be mixing spirit with the same idea as soul. in greek, a spirit and soul are not the same thing either.



pneuma = spirit = ruach


soul = nephesh



That's because people don't go to heaven when they die. Nobody you know who has died is in heaven. They are currently sleeping in their graves, until they will be resurrected for judgement. Of course, to the dead person, it seems like an instant process (much like the first 13 billion years of the universe's existence went by without your notice), but for us still trapped in the confines of spacetime, they are just dead.

Now AFTER the resurrection, that's when the pearly gates will be open for business.

the flesh, body is a grave.

Revelation 3:2
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
so you don't agree that these are angels?

Agree that WHAT are angels? Angels are angels; humans are not angels, nor do humans become angels when they die.

you don't believe the Spirit enters through the fontanel?

The spirit doesn't "enter" anything. Spirit is the impersonal force that makes inanimate matter alive--the "breath of life" breathed into the physical body of Adam (mankind) by God in Genesis 2:7.

in hebrew a spirit is without an earthly, or carnal body. a soul, has a carnal body. you seem to be mixing spirit with the same idea as soul. in greek, a spirit and soul are not the same thing either.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think spirit and soul are the same thing, when I just explained that we are created in the triune image of God, with a body, soul and spirit. Clearly, I think they are three different aspects of our being. I just described spirit as the force that makes inanimate matter alive, which comes from God. The soul is our mind, our personality, that which makes us "us," and it develops along with the development of the brain. Our bodies are mortal, our spirit is immortal (it returns to God upon our death), and our souls can be saved.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Are we all fallen angels; if we descended from heaven and are to ascend to heaven?
Psalms 82:6-7 I said, “You are Elohim, all of you are sons of the Most High. (7) Nevertheless you shall die like men, and fall like one of the rulers.” :innocent:
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Are we all fallen angels; if we descended from heaven and are to ascend to heaven?


Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Are you Christian? Or are you one of several Buddhist/Hindus I've observed here trying to reinterpret Judeo/Christian doctrine to relate it to your Buddhist/Hindu beliefs?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Psalms 82:6-7 I said, “You are Elohim, all of you are sons of the Most High. (7) Nevertheless you shall die like men, and fall like one of the rulers.” :innocent:

In Islam angels do not have freewill and obey God. In Islam, man was made from clay, from dust matter, solidified into a human being and of course God provided a soul for man. Mankind was a separate essence from angel and Djinn. Or do you not consider the other Abrahamic account as presented in Islam?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Are you Christian? Or are you one of several Buddhist/Hindus I've observed here trying to reinterpret Judeo/Christian doctrine to relate it to your Buddhist/Hindu beliefs?

i'm part of the all in ALL.

i was raised christian

i can't deny the obvious.....abraham = brahma, sarah, or sara, = sarasvatti, or hagar =bhaggar.

buddhist missionaries were already in alexandria during the time of jesus' experience in egypt.

a lot got swapped along the spice/silk road.


zoroastrianism; especially
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
i'm part of the all in ALL.

i was raised christian

i can't deny the obvious.....abraham = brahma, sarah, or sara, = sarasvatti, or hagar =bhaggar.

buddhist missionaries were already in alexandria during the time of jesus' experience in egypt.

a lot got swapped along the spice/silk road.


zoroastrianism; especially

I notice people here that are "free spirited" do not mention Islam, nor Sikhism (another monotheistic) nor even Judaism so this "I am the one in all" stuff kinda baffles me. Islam is just as much a part of the fold as Judaism but I find that nobody among the fold of Hinduism and Buddhism references Judaism nor Islam. I'm starting to think that colonial influences among those that believe in Hindu/Buddhist beliefs has a lot to do with this, but that is just a theory. Becareful because philosophically Hinduism and Buddhism from a theological standpoint is contrary to Judeo/Christian and Islamic beliefs.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The spirit doesn't "enter" anything. Spirit is the impersonal force that makes inanimate matter alive--the "breath of life" breathed into the physical body of Adam (mankind) by God in Genesis 2:7.[/QUOTE}you contradicted yourself when you used the word "into"



I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think spirit and soul are the same thing, when I just explained that we are created in the triune image of God, with a body, soul and spirit. Clearly, I think they are three different aspects of our being. I just described spirit as the force that makes inanimate matter alive, which comes from God. The soul is our mind, our personality, that which makes us "us," and it develops along with the development of the brain. Our bodies are mortal, our spirit is immortal (it returns to God upon our death), and our souls can be saved.


i did not state spirit and souls are the same thing. they are two different things. a soul is terrestrial when it incorporates earthly matter as it's state of matter.


the personality doesn't survive. it's associated with a form. the Spirit doesn't take a definite form, a Spirit can take many forms. just as i'm not the person at 3, 8, 15, or 39. there is no form that is me. the form arises like a wave on the infinite waters and subsides back into the limitless Spirit.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I notice people here that are "free spirited" do not mention Islam, nor Sikhism (another monotheistic) nor even Judaism so this "I am the one in all" stuff kinda baffles me. Islam is just as much a part of the fold as Judaism but I find that nobody among the fold of Hinduism and Buddhism references Judaism nor Islam. I'm starting to think that colonial influences among those that believe in Hindu/Buddhist beliefs has a lot to do with this, but that is just a theory. Becareful because philosophically Hinduism and Buddhism from a theological standpoint is contrary to Judeo/Christian and Islamic beliefs.

i've not studied sikhism. i don't try to utilize it

all in all is hermetic. associated with melchizedek. it refers to the name, exodus 3:14.

melchizedek = hermes


hermeticism = alchemy. cham, or ham was the son of noah. he begat canaan. melchizedek was the son of canaan, and a canaanite. cham was an ancient name for egypt. egypt, along with sodom, were allegorically known as a furnace. out of egypt, or the furnace, i called my son.

MELCHIZEDEK - JewishEncyclopedia.com

the ineffable name
nuk pu nuk = egyptian geb the great cackler - goose
ahmi yat ahmi - zoroastrian
ahea ashur ahea - chaldean
tat tvam asi - hindu
neti, neti - buddhist
ehyeh asher ehyeh - judaism
 
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Axe Elf

Prophet
you contradicted yourself when you used the word "into"

No, I just used it in a different sense. When I say that the life force which makes inanimate matter alive (the spirit) does not enter into anything, I'm talking about babies in the womb--real, literal babies and real, literal wombs. The tissue that forms a fetus (or even a zygote) is already alive--it already has spirit--spirit doesn't need to "enter through the fontanel" after the baby is formed but before birth.

When I quoted Genesis 2:7, I was quoting the allegory of God breathing life "into" Adam, which basically is just a way of talking about how the inanimate matter of man (the dust of the earth) is made to be alive. But even if you believe that Adam was a real person and God actually did breathe life into him, surely you would recognize that the creation of Adam, as a full-grown man, would be different from the creation of every other human as a fetus, don't you? God doesn't go around blowing life into every fetus one by one; as I said, they are already alive.

i did not state spirit and souls are the same thing. they are two different things.

No, you did not state that spirit and soul are the same thing, but you accused ME of doing so (and I quote): "you seem to be mixing spirit with the same idea as soul. in greek, a spirit and soul are not the same thing either." So I was demonstrating to you that I did indeed know the difference.

the personality doesn't survive. it's associated with a form. the Spirit doesn't take a definite form, a Spirit can take many forms. just as i'm not the person at 3, 8, 15, or 39. there is no form that is me. the form arises like a wave on the infinite waters and subsides back into the limitless Spirit.

Maybe we need a refresher here. Spirit is nothing more than the breath of life, the force by which inanimate matter is made alive (Genesis 2:7). Spirit is immortal; its source is God, and it returns to God upon death, when animate matter is made inanimate again (Ecclesiastes 12:7). There is no sense of the individual or "self" in spirit; it is just the force of life.

The soul is the mind (not the brain), which includes your personality, beliefs, memories, thoughts--everything about you that makes you "you." Like bodies, souls are mortal, but can be saved. If they are not, then they will perish in the second death (Revelation 20:14), and everything will be just like before you were born--nonexistence. If your soul is saved, then "you" will live forever in the presence of God.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
No, I just used it in a different sense. When I say that the life force which makes inanimate matter alive (the spirit) does not enter into anything, I'm talking about babies in the womb--real, literal babies and real, literal wombs. The tissue that forms a fetus (or even a zygote) is already alive--it already has spirit--spirit doesn't need to "enter through the fontanel" after the baby is formed but before birth.

When I quoted Genesis 2:7, I was quoting the allegory of God breathing life "into" Adam, which basically is just a way of talking about how the inanimate matter of man (the dust of the earth) is made to be alive. But even if you believe that Adam was a real person and God actually did breathe life into him, surely you would recognize that the creation of Adam, as a full-grown man, would be different from the creation of every other human as a fetus, don't you? God doesn't go around blowing life into every fetus one by one; as I said, they are already alive.



No, you did not state that spirit and soul are the same thing, but you accused ME of doing so (and I quote): "you seem to be mixing spirit with the same idea as soul. in greek, a spirit and soul are not the same thing either." So I was demonstrating to you that I did indeed know the difference.



Maybe we need a refresher here. Spirit is nothing more than the breath of life, the force by which inanimate matter is made alive (Genesis 2:7). Spirit is immortal; its source is God, and it returns to God upon death, when animate matter is made inanimate again (Ecclesiastes 12:7). There is no sense of the individual or "self" in spirit; it is just the force of life.

The soul is the mind (not the brain), which includes your personality, beliefs, memories, thoughts--everything about you that makes you "you." Like bodies, souls are mortal, but can be saved. If they are not, then they will perish in the second death (Revelation 20:14), and everything will be just like before you were born--nonexistence. If your soul is saved, then "you" will live forever in the presence of God.



personalities do not survive. when the people asked john; if he were elijah, he told them no. when the disciples told jesus that elijah must come first, jesus said he already had. john was elijah in a former life. in this life he wasn't . neither jesus nor john lied. jesus was melchizedek in another life, thus he is a high priest forever after the pattern of melchizedek.

so no, the personality does not survive. the soul is a personality. the memories, the mind, spirit is eternal the persons aren't. forms aren't eternal. minds, or spirit, are.
 
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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Islam is just as much a part of the fold as Judaism but I find that nobody among the fold of Hinduism and Buddhism references Judaism nor Islam.
This is because Judaism was wrong about many things, and the Hebraic religious texts say contrary; thus Elohim in my understanding originally means something similar to Avatars in Hinduism or Arch Angels in Zoroastrianism.

Thus Islam is a copy of what Judaism believed, not what the prophets stated about Yeshua; as they actually say he is the Son of the Most High, i.e. an Arch Angel, Elohim, Elder, Avatar, Ascended Master, etc..
Or do you not consider the other Abrahamic account as presented in Islam?
Islam has muddled up lots of theological concepts, from not knowing all the contexts well enough.
In Islam angels do not have freewill and obey God.
See this is what i mean, that point dictates something different to Enoch with the rebellion of the angels or that Avatars are capable of independent thought, and that the Arch Angels in Zoroastrianism created reality...

Which is what we find in Genesis written the Elohim created reality, and the Most High is separate to it, like a CPU manifesting reality at a quantum level.

In my opinion
. :innocent:
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I don't see how one would infer this is about people being fallen angels. I think it's about people having one unified nature, despite the appearing of forms.

Ecclesiastes is my favorite Bible book.


some think of hell as downcast, low place and heaven as an uplift, or high place.

god the most high, if omnipresent, is found in lowly places too.
 
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