State of the Dead

[Prestor John]

Nope, when Jesus said in the book of
John 5:28--"Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice"

Note that Jesus said ( Marvel not at this)
Because the grave is not to be take literal, as the grave in the ground.

But the grave in which Jesus is speaking of is Spiritual and not literal.

The grave in which Jesus is speaking of is where the spiritual dead are held captive in spiritual darkness. Of not knowing the truth, The grave in which Jesus speaks of represents spiritual darkness.being in darkness of not knowing the truth.
1 Corinthians 15:55--"O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

The grave does not hold me captive in prison in spiritual darkness.of not knowing the truth.

I don't know where you got your interpretation, but the very next verse in John 5 disagrees with what you shared by recording what was to happen to "all that are in the graves" after they were to "hear his voice",

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29)

Christ told His disciples not to marvel, not because He was referring to the literal grave, but because He was claiming that those dead people who are lying in their literal graves shall one day arise in a physical Resurrection.

All who lie in the grave (or who have suffered physical death) will one day be Resurrected either unto life or damnation, depending on their works.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:12-13)

Everyone will one day die and be laid in the grave. Everyone will one day hear the voice of the Son of God and rise from the grave in a bodily Resurrection either unto life or damnation, depending on their works.

If the "grave" was only in reference to a spiritual prison of darkness, then how could any of them be judged good according to their works and receive a Resurrection unto life?

 

[Faithofchristian]

unenlightened persons sleep. you are the light of the world, a city set on a hill.



For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you."


Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

How are those dead corps to rise, when there is nothing in them but dead corps.

When a person dies, their spirit returns back to God and the body returns back to dust of the earth.

So since the spirit returns back to God, Then there's nothing in the body, but a corps, with no life in it.

As you said --- "Awake, sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine on you"
Ok, so who's the sleeper and who's the dead ?

 

[Faithofchristian]

I don't know where you got your interpretation, but the very next verse in John 5 disagrees with what you shared by recording what was to happen to "all that are in the graves" after they were to "hear his voice",

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29)

Christ told His disciples not to marvel, not because He was referring to the literal grave, but because He was claiming that those dead people who are lying in their literal graves shall one day arise in a physical Resurrection.

All who lie in the grave (or who have suffered physical death) will one day be Resurrected either unto life or damnation, depending on their works.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:12-13)

Everyone will one day die and be laid in the grave. Everyone will one day hear the voice of the Son of God and rise from the grave in a bodily Resurrection either unto life or damnation, depending on their works.

If the "grave" was only in reference to a spiritual prison of darkness, then how could any of them be judged good according to their works and receive a Resurrection unto life?

The next verse 29 of John 5, supports verse 28, that those who are in spiritually in prison in the spiritual grave will be set free from their Spiritual darkness. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"

People are not laying out in some hole in the ground as you think they are.
All thats there is an empty body.
The spirit has returned back to God, that leaves the body with nothing in it, but an empty corps,body.

In Revelation 20:12 and John saw the dead, small and great, This being the spiritual dead, that are to be judge first standing before God, and the books were opened.
The books which are to be open, is the book of Life and the other book, which is the Bible. To be judge by the word of God.

Verse 13--"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it"

Note the sea is a big body of water, right.

So according to Revelation 17:15, water represents peoples, multitudes, and nations and tongues.
So here in Revelation 20:13 we have the sea, which is a big body of water, so that would mean, Nations, which are a big body of people.

So the spiritual dead came out of those Nations. to stand before God to be judge.

Those that are resurrected from the spiritual dead, because they heard the voice of the Son of God and came forth out of their spiritual darkness, into the Spirit of Light of God's truth.

Not all will come out of their spiritual darkness, there are those that will remain in their spiritual darkness.
John 3:19--"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil"

The men loved darkness, are the spiritual dead. In darkness, are these spoken about in Revelation 20:12,13. That came out of the nations of people's, to stand before God to be judge.
Remember that sea, Represents people,nations.
In Revelation 17:15. Seeing the sea is a big body of water, thereby being Nations and people.

 

[Prestor John]

The next verse 29 of John 5, supports verse 28, that those who spiritually in prison in the spiritual grave will be set free. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"

People are not laying out in some hole in the ground as you think they are.
All thats there is an empty body.
The spirit has returned back to God, that leaves the body with nothing in it, but an empty corps,body.

I never claimed that our spirits remained with our bodies in the grave. I don't know where you got that from.

So, let me get this straight, your belief is that those in "spiritual darkness" are held in a prison upon death, yet all of them shall one day receive a Resurrection of life or damnation?

If that's the case, then why would "good" people be locked away in spiritual darkness at all?

What is the purpose of this prison and how can God justify putting good people there?

I don't understand these theories because they do not come from the scriptures.

 

[Fool]

How are those dead corps to rise, when there is nothing in them but dead corps.

When a person dies, their spirit returns back to God and the body returns back to dust of the earth.

So since the spirit returns back to God, Then there's nothing in the body, but a corps, with no life in it.

As you said --- "Awake, sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine on you"
Ok, so who's the sleeper and who's the dead ?

there are two deaths

those who are born of the flesh.

those who are born of the spirit.

those who are born of the spirit call no earthly man father.

those who are born of the flesh, are born of the dust, of the grave. awakening to everlasting life is waking up from the flesh, the grave.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The dead being in reference to the Spiritual dead.

But who are the Spiritual dead ?

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead"
Matthew 8:22.

You really don't believe that dead people are actually burying their dead ?

The book of John 5:25,28.
Verse 25--"Verily, verily, I say unto you,
The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"

This will happen twice. first time is
when people hear Christ Jesus speaking through his word throughout the Bible and they that hear shall live.

The second time takes place at the coming of Christ Jesus, that when the dead, Spiritual dead, hear the voice of Christ Jesus shall live.
They that hear will see, that they have been deceived all during their life.
About Christ Jesus and God the Father.

Now for John 5:28-29--"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"

The hour that's being spoken of, is that hour in which Christ Jesus returns.

The grave that's being spoken of, is not an actual grave as you see as a hole in the ground.

The grave that Christ Jesus is speaking of, is Spiritual, that holds people in Spiritual darkness. Of not knowing the truth of Christ Jesus word.

The grave has a 3 folded meaning in the Bible.
One being, where our dead body of flesh and blood are put in the ground.

The other has a spiritual meaning, which holds people in Spiritual darkness of not knowing or understanding the truth of God's word.

The other is, the grave represents a prison, where the Spiritual dead are held captive in darkness of being deceived by deception of not knowing the truth of God's word.

The question is, Who are the Spiritual dead ?

The dead being the Spiritual dead, are those who disbelieve in God and have no concept about Christ Jesus or God.

But when Spiritual dead, in their Spiritual darkness hear the voice of Christ Jesus shall live.

Look let's take for instance those two men that were nailed on crosses beside Christ Jesus, one of them were in condemning Christ Jesus and the other one hearing the voice of Christ Jesus.
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, to day shalt you be with me in paradise"
The book of Luke 23:39--43.

Therefore those that hear the voice of Christ Jesus, shalt live and those who turn away of the voice of Christ Jesus are in condemnation. As did the other man on the cross rejected to hear the voice of Christ Jesus.was in condemnation, while the other man, went into paradise with Christ Jesus.

I'm sorry, but your explanation of John 5:28-29, is too convoluted. It clearly speaks of "those in the Memorial tombs [that] will come out". It's a literal resurrection, from literal graves, at a future time. In the next chapter (John 6:40), Jesus said it will occur "in the last day".....apparently Martha heard this, and in John 11, when Lazarus dies, Martha tells Jesus she knows her brother will be resurrected "in the last day." But then Jesus resurrects him right there, right from a literal grave. And it was a literal resurrection. As is the one described in Daniel 12:2.

It's the only kind of resurrection the ancient Jews understood.

The Hereafter

 

[shmogie]

Nope, when Jesus said in the book of
John 5:28--"Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice"

Note that Jesus said ( Marvel not at this)
Because the grave is not to be take literal, as the grave in the ground.

But the grave in which Jesus is speaking of is Spiritual and not literal.

The grave in which Jesus is speaking of is where the spiritual dead are held captive in spiritual darkness. Of not knowing the truth, The grave in which Jesus speaks of represents spiritual darkness.being in darkness of not knowing the truth.
1 Corinthians 15:55--"O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

The grave does not hold me captive in prison in spiritual darkness.of not knowing the truth.

Please tell me where Christ says I am talking about a grave, but I am totally changing the definition of the word. I don't mean a place where dead people go, I am really talking about where living people go" I have looked diligently and just can't find it..

 

[shmogie]

there are two deaths

those who are born of the flesh.

those who are born of the spirit.

those who are born of the spirit call no earthly man father.

those who are born of the flesh, are born of the dust, of the grave. awakening to everlasting life is waking up from the flesh, the grave.

Interesting, but Biblical support for your comments would help your argument, immensely

 

[shmogie]

The dead being in reference to the Spiritual dead.

But who are the Spiritual dead ?

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead"
Matthew 8:22.

You really don't believe that dead people are actually burying their dead ?

The book of John 5:25,28.
Verse 25--"Verily, verily, I say unto you,
The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"

This will happen twice. first time is
when people hear Christ Jesus speaking through his word throughout the Bible and they that hear shall live.

The second time takes place at the coming of Christ Jesus, that when the dead, Spiritual dead, hear the voice of Christ Jesus shall live.
They that hear will see, that they have been deceived all during their life.
About Christ Jesus and God the Father.

Now for John 5:28-29--"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"

The hour that's being spoken of, is that hour in which Christ Jesus returns.

The grave that's being spoken of, is not an actual grave as you see as a hole in the ground.

The grave that Christ Jesus is speaking of, is Spiritual, that holds people in Spiritual darkness. Of not knowing the truth of Christ Jesus word.

The grave has a 3 folded meaning in the Bible.
One being, where our dead body of flesh and blood are put in the ground.

The other has a spiritual meaning, which holds people in Spiritual darkness of not knowing or understanding the truth of God's word.

The other is, the grave represents a prison, where the Spiritual dead are held captive in darkness of being deceived by deception of not knowing the truth of God's word.

The question is, Who are the Spiritual dead ?

The dead being the Spiritual dead, are those who disbelieve in God and have no concept about Christ Jesus or God.

But when Spiritual dead, in their Spiritual darkness hear the voice of Christ Jesus shall live.

Look let's take for instance those two men that were nailed on crosses beside Christ Jesus, one of them were in condemning Christ Jesus and the other one hearing the voice of Christ Jesus.
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, to day shalt you be with me in paradise"
The book of Luke 23:39--43.

Therefore those that hear the voice of Christ Jesus, shalt live and those who turn away of the voice of Christ Jesus are in condemnation. As did the other man on the cross rejected to hear the voice of Christ Jesus.was in condemnation, while the other man, went into paradise with Christ Jesus.

The Koine Greek in which the New Testament was written has no punctuation. Thus, why not the comma, which wasn't in the original Greek, being placed here, "verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise " Why is "verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise." The comma has always been placed by translators who have preconceived covinctions. Further the koine Greek syntax is sometimes difficult to find a parallel in English.

Biblical proof that Christ wasn't talking about a grave when he was talking about a grave would be helpful

 

[Fool]

Interesting, but Biblical support for your comments would help your argument, immensely

when the Spirit incorporates into the dust, that is a death, or forgetfulness of one's eternal spirit. the personality, the ego, the beast, starts to form. one's formless self, genesis 1:2 is forgotten. that which was with God before the creation.

when the Spirit is released from the grave, the body. that is the second death. the attachment to the personality is dissolved. rev 2:11, rev 20:6, rev 20:14, and rev 21:8


jesus remembered his former self as melchizedek

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

 

[Faithofchristian]

there are two deaths

those who are born of the flesh.

those who are born of the spirit.

those who are born of the spirit call no earthly man father.

those who are born of the flesh, are born of the dust, of the grave. awakening to everlasting life is waking up from the flesh, the grave.

Those born of the Spirit do not die.

Look when your body of flesh dies, it returns back to dust. Your spirit returns back to God.

Therefore there is no one laying in a hole in the ground.
All that's there is a corps body.

There are two resurrection

The Resurrection of the spiritual dead

The Resurrection of the living.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I'm sorry, but your explanation of John 5:28-29, is too convoluted. It clearly speaks of "those in the Memorial tombs [that] will come out". It's a literal resurrection, from literal graves, at a future time. In the next chapter (John 6:40), Jesus said it will occur "in the last day".....apparently Martha heard this, and in John 11, when Lazarus dies, Martha tells Jesus she knows her brother will be resurrected "in the last day." But then Jesus resurrects him right there, right from a literal grave. And it was a literal resurrection. As is the one described in Daniel 12:2.

It's the only kind of resurrection the ancient Jews understood.

The Hereafter

That's because you can not discern between what is spiritual and what is not spiritual.

 

[shmogie]

That is taking Genesis out of its context. It is included with the Torah as part of the Pentateuch. There is no introduction saying what it is about. Your assumption that it is about planet Earth is just that. Also you have started with preconceived notions about many things in Genesis such as the word LORD. Therefore you take the book mistakenly literally viewing Earth as a planet created with two people in it, a snake that introduces us to sin and a tree that miraculously grants knowledge. Of course that means you are going to make a lot of additional wrong judgments about any parts of the Bible that reference Genesis, because you will assume that they also consider it to be literal. In fact, that is a huge problem not just for you but for many Christians today. There is a culture gap so wide that a city could fall through it.

The context argument is often used to cover a multitude of sins. Usually ending like this " We must view................ within it's context, and it doesn't apply to us when viewed in our modern context " It can be used to make what the Bible says like silly putty, the contextualists can form it into anything they want., it has no credibility with me and is a very poor tool of exegesis.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The Koine Greek in which the New Testament was written has no punctuation. Thus, why not the comma, which wasn't in the original Greek, being placed here, "verily I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise " Why is "verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise." The comma has always been placed by translators who have preconceived covinctions. Further the koine Greek syntax is sometimes difficult to find a parallel in English.

Biblical proof that Christ wasn't talking about a grave when he was talking about a grave would be helpful

When Christ spoke of the grave this is not a grave which we see a literal grave as a hole in the ground. The grave which Jesus speaks of is spiritual.

 

[Fool]

Those born of the Spirit do not die.

jesus gave up the Spirit

Look when your body of flesh dies, it returns back to dust. Your spirit returns back to God.

i understand this. man lives but once and then the judgment.

Therefore there is no one laying in a hole in the ground.
All that's there is a corps body.

There are two resurrection

that is the earthly body, the grave, a temple made from the earth according to the Spirit.

this is also a buddhist concept

The Resurrection of the spiritual dead

The Resurrection of the living.

that is the same from daniel 12:2-3

 

[Fool]

When Christ spoke of the grave this is not a grave which we see a literal grave as a hole in the ground. The grave which Jesus speaks of is spiritual.

the earthly body is a grave in which the Spirit is entombed, enthroned, a temple in which the Spirit takes as a vehicle for this incarnation, this earthly experience


2 Corinthians 5:1
[ Awaiting the New Body ] For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

 

[shmogie]

That's because you can not discern between what is spiritual and what is not spiritual.

One wonders why Lazarus was so happy to return to this sad world when he actually was in some place much nicer. I am glad God has given you the ability to judge who is, and isn';t spiritual. I bet you have already weighed me in the balance and found me wanting, right ? Have you picked up enough stones to cast at all who disagree with you , thus making them non spiritual ? I hope you have VERY DEEP pockets for all those rocks.

 

[Faithofchristian]

when the Spirit incorporates into the dust, that is a death, or forgetfulness of one's eternal spirit. the personality, the ego, the beast, starts to form. one's formless self, genesis 1:2 is forgotten. that which was with God before the creation.

when the Spirit is released from the grave, the body. that is the second death. the attachment to the personality is dissolved. rev 2:11, rev 20:6, rev 20:14, and rev 21:8


jesus remembered his former self as melchizedek

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

You do error, there is no spirit in a hole in the ground. At the minute, you take your last breath of air, your spirit returns back to God who gave it.

Your body of flesh returns back to dust.
As it is written in
Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, And the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Therefore your spirit is not in a hole in the ground, but returns back to God who gave it.

One wonders why Lazarus was so happy to return to this sad world when he actually was in some place much nicer. I am glad God has given you the ability to judge who is, and isn';t spiritual. I bet you have already weighed me in the balance and found me wanting, right ? Have you picked up enough stones to cast at all who disagree with you , thus making them non spiritual ? I hope you have VERY DEEP pockets for all those rocks.

One wonders why Lazarus was so happy to return to this sad world when he actually was in some place much nicer. I am glad God has given you the ability to judge who is, and isn';t spiritual. I bet you have already weighed me in the balance and found me wanting, right ? Have you picked up enough stones to cast at all who disagree with you , thus making them non spiritual ? I hope you have VERY DEEP pockets for all those rocks.

 

[shmogie]

the earthly body is a grave in which the Spirit is entombed, a temple in which the Spirit takes as a vehicle for this incarnation.


2 Corinthians 5:1
[ Awaiting the New Body ] For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Well, of course, for the righteous. However, when you buy a house there is the matter of escrow, it is yours, but you must wait TILL ALL the paper work IS FINISHED. All isn';t finished yet, till it is the dead in Christ rest, till they are resurrected to occupy their heavenly homes

 

[shmogie]

You do error, there is no spirit in a hole in the ground. At the minute, you take your last breath of air, your spirit returns back to God who gave it.

Your body of flesh returns back to dust.
As it is written in
Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, And the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Therefore your spirit is not in a hole in the ground, but returns back to God who gave it.

So, simply answer the question, is the soul different from the spirit, and if so, how ?