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Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
From the other thread......scripture included. As this is quite long...I'll split it up.

Tom Larkin said:
I am a Christian who believes the Bible is the Word of God. I also work in Biotechnology and have a Masters in Biochemical Engineering and I am very familiar with the science behind evolution. After studying the Bible for quite a while, I noticed some consistent patterns and would like to propose that the events of Genesis are sequential and that the men and women created in Chapter one of Genesis were created before Adam and Eve in Chapter 2, which would eliminate the contradiction between the Bible and evolution, the sequence of Chapter 1 is consistent with the evolutionary sequence. My argument below:

G1 - the Bible is the word of God (the current 66 books)

G2 - any scripture must be interpreted in light of all scripture, no scripture may be "privately interpreted"

Off to a good start.
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Evidence:

E1: The creation in chapter1 describes the creation of the universe from the Big Bang (let there be light - initially photons only existed prior to even atoms) the creation of the universe, the creation of the stars, earth moon, sea life, plants, animals and humans.

Agreed.
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E2: Creation of Chapter 2 describes the creation of Adam, the Garden and the animals.

Disagree.
no.gif

Chapter 2 is a "history" or a recap, (not necessarily in chronological order) adding detail that is not recorded in the basic account of what is recorded in Chapter 1. There is only one creation of mankind and the other creatures who inhabit planet Earth....they had one assignment....to reproduce and fill the earth.

Genesis 1:26-28..."Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

Why would God make two separate creations of humankind? And what makes you think that there are two?

In Genesis ch 2 it says that in the earth, for Adam, "there was no helper as a complement of him. 21 So God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And God built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman, and he brought her to the man. . . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

If other humans existed, then why did God have to create a mate for him?

Genesis ch 3 continues on from ch 2, detailing the unfolding events pertaining to the first humans and their alienation from God. Because of their disobedience, they were expelled from the garden to eke out an existence on cursed ground.

"After this Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she had to become the mother of everyone living."

Now if Eve had to become the "mother of everyone living" that rules out any living humans in existence before her. It also makes no sense that Adam could find no mate if there were other women in the world.


E3: Throughout the book Genesis, the geneology of the line not leading to Jesus is always given first. This is consistent throughout the book including Seth, Shem, Isaac, Jacob, etc.

Not sure how the genealogy "not leading to Jesus" fits in here...? You see in Genesis 3:15, we have the first prophesy given as a response to the fall of man. It was a veiled reference to the remedy that God would apply, to undo what Adam had done to his offspring, (condemning them to death because of his disobedience.) in alluding to the sacrifice of Jesus. If other humans existed before Adam and Eve, then how did all humans descended from this "one man" inherit his sin? (Romans 5:12) :shrug: Only Adam's offspring were affected.

E4: In Genesis 6, it states the "sons of God" saw the "daughters of men" and saw that they were fair and took them as wives, but Noah was perfect in his generations.

The word used here is rendered more correctly as "blameless" rather than "perfect". There were no "perfect" humans descended from Adam. His firstborn son became a murderer, such was the power of sin handed on from his parents.
A man who is "blameless" is one who walks in integrity despite his sinful nature...like Job....and Abraham.

The "sons of God" were angels, materialized in human form, who took the "daughters of men" and produced a hybrid offspring known as the Nephilim. These monstrous half-humans were violent and sex mad and they filled the earth at that time with a situation God would not tolerate, so he brought a drastic end to their existence and all the sinful humans influenced to emulate them.

E5: In 1 Cor and in Romans, Paul states we are born in "corruptible seed" through Adam and sown in incorruptible seed through the second Adam, Jesus.

Which is why it makes no sense for there being other humans before the creation of Adam and Eve.
If you understand the mechanics of the ransom, the one redeeming has to pay the right price to release the one in debt.

What Adam lost for his children was perfect, sinless life in paradise.....Adam eventually paid for his own sin with his own life, but there was no one to pay the redemption price for his children. Perfect, sinless life was lost and a perfect sinless life was required to pay the debt. This is why Jesus had to come from outside the human race....he was perfect and sinless. If other humans had existed apart from Adam then they would not have had the defect of sin that he passed on, so your scenario doesn't make sense to me.

E6: All men and women alive today are descended from a common most recent ancestor who was alive when other men and women were alive (Nature 6Aug13 among many other sources)

Yes, we are all of necessity descendants of Noah. But how does that fit in with your scenario? Anyone who tries to imply that creation and evolution are somehow the same story are suffering from wishful thinking IMO.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Discussion:

D1: The purpose of Genesis 1 is consistent with the rest of Genesis in that the line not leading to the Messiah is given before the line leading to the Messiah.

This makes no sense.

The line of the Messiah comes through Seth......this lineage in Luke leads from Noah to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

"son of Noah,
son of Laʹmech,
37 son of Me·thuʹse·lah,
son of Eʹnoch,
son of Jaʹred,
son of Ma·haʹla·le·el,
son of Ca·iʹnan,
38 son of Eʹnosh,
son of Seth,
son of Adam,
son of God."
(Luke 3:23-28)

D2: The men and women of Genesis 1 are consistent with the "daughters of men" described in Chapter 6

Disagree....the "male and female" created in Genesis 1 are the same male and female spoken about in Genesis 2 and 3.

D3: The creation described in Genesis 1 is not contradictory to our understanding of the evolutionary process.

Oh, but I believe it is. The "evolutionary process" is assumed by scientists, not proven. We are speaking about macro-evolution here...not adaptation. Science has postulated a theory and built a house of cards into a monolith of suggestion. Science cannot prove that evolution ever took place or that it is even possible the way they say. It has observed adaptation and made wild claims that it cannot back up with substantiated evidence.

In Genesis there is a direct creation of every living thing, beginning in the oceans and finishing with the creation of man. There is no evolution in the Bible. What is misunderstood is the time taken for each creative "day". I believe that this is what best explains the situation.

If each creative period was thousands or even millions of years long, then we are looking at a slow and deliberate process of creation over eons of time, with God taking time and care to craft each creature. It also explains why there are no intermediate links in a chain to other creatures. Each was a separate creation. Each had the inbuilt ability to adapt to new circumstances (environment or food sources). Adaptation occurs within a single family of organisms.

Genesis allows for an old earth by separating the first verse from the following ones. The creation of the "heaven and the earth" was a separate event, long before the preparation of the earth for habitation began. The creative periods did not have to be 24 hour days. The Hebrew word "yohm" (day) can mean an undetermined length of time.

Each "day" had a beginning and an end, but that is where I believe the similarity ends.

D4: Noah was described as being "perfect in his generations" which means he was a direct descendent of Adam and Eve.

According to the Bible, Noah was "blameless"...not "perfect". Considering that his conduct was the very opposite to that of the general population of his time, he might have looked "perfect" to God because his family were the only ones worth saving.

D5: Through Noah, we are all descended from Adam.

Correct.

D6: The creation events in Genesis 1 and 2 are very different in order of creation, in what had already existed and even in the reason for creation of men and women (Genesis 1 - let's make man in Our image", Genesis 2 - "there was no one to till the ground"

There was no need to till the ground until Adam was kicked out of the garden. They initially ate only fruit...remember? (Genesis 2:16) The "history" in ch 2 & 3 relate to the humans and what happened as a consequence of their choices. They lost so much when they chose to rebel.

Only when the ground was cursed did God tell Adam they had to eat "bread" until they returned to the dust.

"And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:17-19)

It was a very different life now to the one in the garden.

Conclusions:

C1 The Creation accounts Genesis 1 and 2 are sequential, which is consistent with the genealogies in the book of Genesis and with Genesis 6.

C2 The account in Genesis 1 is not inconsistent with science, having Adam and the garden created after other men and women eliminates the conflict with evolution (men and women in chapter 1 followed the evolutionary process as is consistent with the order).

C3 We are all descended from Adam through Noah as he was "perfect in his generations", so this is consistent to the references to Adam in the New Testament.

No sorry, I cannot come to the same conclusion at all...but thanks for the exercise. :)
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Deeje wrote:

"Evidence:

E1: The creation in chapter1 describes the creation of the universe from the Big Bang (let there be light - initially photons only existed prior to even atoms) the creation of the universe, the creation of the stars, earth moon, sea life, plants, animals and humans.

Agreed.
128fs318181.gif
"
--------------
Disagreed. The ancient world picture contains "only" the local part of the creation, namely the Milky Way and everything in it. The numerous cultural stories of creation deals specifically with this part - and the best of the cultural cosmological stories also speaks of the basic cosmological principles in the creation, often symbolized and described with a prime male and female creator and not just a monotheistic and personified Christian god.

The Jewish/Christian creation story is skewed because the mythical allegories is personalized instead of a cosmological interpretation of the story. One can get a more logical and natural idea of the cosmological creation story by reading of the Egyptian "Ogdoad" - Ogdoad - as well as from other cultural stories of creation.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
In Genesis ch 2 it says that in the earth, for Adam, "there was no helper as a complement of him. 21 So God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And God built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman, and he brought her to the man. . . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

If other humans existed, then why did God have to create a mate for him?
So women weren't created the way a man were but were created as an afterthought because God had forgotten to make a helper for the man to begin with?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Genesis ch 3 continues on from ch 2, detailing the unfolding events pertaining to the first humans and their alienation from God. Because of their disobedience, they were expelled from the garden to eke out an existence on cursed ground.
"After this Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she had to become the mother of everyone living."
Now if Eve had to become the "mother of everyone living" that rules out any living humans in existence before her. It also makes no sense that Adam could find no mate if there were other women in the world.

One misses the entire point by interpreting these sentenses as personal human matters instead of mytho-cosmological informations. "Eve" represents the mythical theme of the Mother Goddess which is specifically connected to the Milky Way, as also with the Egyptian goddess, Hathor - Hathor - Wikipedia

Again, the Jewish/Christian monotheistic/patriarchal interpretation of the creation have forgotten the ancient mythical and symbolic language and description of the ancient cosmos. The "expulsion from Eden" has nothing to do with a human obedience but with a mytho-cosmological description of the formation of everything in the Milky Way.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Does that indicate that God looks much closer to a primate than, say, a spider?

Ciao

- viole
I suppose so. First he makes all the animals, male giraffes and female giraffes, male elephants and female elephants, then male humans and.... "oops, forgot the female humans.... have to improvise, I'll just take a rib."
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I suppose so. First he makes all the animals, male giraffes and female giraffes, male elephants and female elephants, then male humans and.... "oops, forgot the female humans.... have to improvise, I'll just take a rib."

Well, for sure He must have been very proud with His work with chimps and gorillas in order to make the pinnacle of His creation, the very reason the Universe exists, looking like one of them.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So women weren't created the way a man were but were created as an afterthought because God had forgotten to make a helper for the man to begin with?

Animals were created with inbuilt instinct...pre-programmed to do what is necessary to sustain their existence without having to plan much of anything. They live in the present with little thought of the past, and with no real concept of the future. Humans, however, were not created that way. We alone are made to reflect the qualities of the Creator. We have to be educated to make our way successful, which is why the man was created first. God used the time before the creation of the woman to educate him. She was created as a "complement" of him, which means that all she was, made him complete. They were to be partners for life, so God educated Adam and he educated her...together they would educate their children. That makes perfect sense to me.

Does that indicate that God looks much closer to a primate than, say, a spider?

Not even sure what that means.....are you asking if God looks like an ape?

I suppose so. First he makes all the animals, male giraffes and female giraffes, male elephants and female elephants, then male humans and.... "oops, forgot the female humans.... have to improvise, I'll just take a rib."

It would not occur to you that the Creator might just know what he's doing and that it matters little if you have no interest in understanding any of it.....If he doesn't exist, you have nothing to worry about...do you? But what if he does, and you are just another godless unbeliever shooting your mouth off? :shrug:
God has a record of dealing with those who see a reason to mock him. At what point do you think those opposers lost their smirk?

Well, for sure He must have been very proud with His work with chimps and gorillas in order to make the pinnacle of His creation, the very reason the Universe exists, looking like one of them.

Who said humans are the reason that the universe exists? We are merely a part of material creation, as angels are part of spiritual creation. Each exists in their own realm, with their own role. I'm not sure that they were ever intended to interact in the beginning, but they ended up that way because one of them stepped out of place and created a situation that needed fixing.

Well designed machinery can function flawlessly until something gets loose and gets out of alignment....the whole machine can break down as a result and will need repair by an engineer who can identify the problem and replace the faulty part, fixing any damage caused by it. God is the engineer of creation.

In his creative works, God is what all artists are.....creative. Many human artists create similar works with similar themes, but one will be outstanding and become recognised as his greatest work.

Among all of the lifeforms that inhabit this planet, who can argue that humans are superior in many ways....particularly with regard to intelligence. Only in relatively recent times have humans become so enamoured with their own intelligence that they have abandoned belief in God to turn to worship of their own intellect....making gods out of high ranking scientists and those acclaimed in the world of academia.

I'm sure that the Creator finds human egos rather amusing. I know I do. :D
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Not even sure what that means.....are you asking if God looks like an ape?

mmh, yes. Actually no, I am asking if He looks more like and ape than, say, like a spider.

What do you think?

Ciao

- viole
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
It would not occur to you that the Creator might just know what he's doing and that it matters little if you have no interest in understanding any of it.....If he doesn't exist, you have nothing to worry about...do you? But what if he does, and you are just another godless unbeliever shooting your mouth off? :shrug:
God has a record of dealing with those who see a reason to mock him. At what point do you think those opposers lost their smirk?
Here's at least one other person I will be sharing Hell with according to Deeje: 22. Was God really hoping Adam would find a suitable partner among the animals?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
mmh, yes. Actually no, I am asking if He looks more like and ape than, say, like a spider.

What do you think?

What do I think? I think it's a silly question. God has no physical form. It is his qualities that we reflect, not his shape.

You don't know much about God, do you?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Here's at least one other person I will be sharing Hell with according to Deeje: 22. Was God really hoping Adam would find a suitable partner among the animals?

"Sharing hell"? I don't believe in that kind of hell. That is a pagan myth adopted by an apostate church in the early centuries.

I believe that God simply gives us the choice between life and death.
There is no immortal soul to reward or to punish. It is this life where we prove worthy of the life to come....or not.

Death is nothing more than a sleep....some God will awaken...the rest will never wake up. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.

It's really that simple.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
What do I think? I think it's a silly question. God has no physical form. It is his qualities that we reflect, not his shape.

You don't know much about God, do you?
Then tell us everything you actually know about God outside of what your holy book says since we can read. Does it all just come from your holy book and if not share with us all you actually know beyond what your holy book says.
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
"Sharing hell"? I don't believe in that kind of hell. That is a pagan myth adopted by an apostate church in the early centuries.

I believe that God simply gives us the choice between life and death.
There is no immortal soul to reward or to punish. It is this life where we prove worthy of the life to come....or not.

Death is nothing more than a sleep....some God will awaken...the rest will never wake up. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.

It's really that simple.
You said and I quote:

"It would not occur to you that the Creator might just know what he's doing and that it matters little if you have no interest in understanding any of it.....If he doesn't exist, you have nothing to worry about...do you? But what if he does, and you are just another godless unbeliever shooting your mouth off? :shrug:
God has a record of dealing with those who see a reason to mock him. At what point do you think those opposers lost their smirk?"

What is it you are threathening me with if there's no torture or hellfire or eternal pain or anything just not existing? Not existing is supposed to be bad when I don't even exist to feel bad for not existing? Without any punishment you have nothing to threaten with...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I suppose so. First he makes all the animals, male giraffes and female giraffes, male elephants and female elephants, then male humans and.... "oops, forgot the female humans.... have to improvise, I'll just take a rib."
Unless it wasn't a rib. :)
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What do I think? I think it's a silly question. God has no physical form. It is his qualities that we reflect, not his shape.

You don't know much about God, do you?

Butting in to point out that you know next to nothing about evolution, or how science works.

You are though quite open to making all manner of false and rather absurd statements about their nature, and likewise statements of facts not in evidence about the nature of your "god".

Do you find this to be entirely honourable and respectable? As a "Christian" and all.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Animals were created with inbuilt instinct...pre-programmed to do what is necessary to sustain their existence without having to plan much of anything. They live in the present with little thought of the past, and with no real concept of the future.

This is garbage. Concept or not, even lowly creatures like some birds and squirrels for example plan the future, by stashing food away from prying eyes. Many other animals plan for the future - chimpanzees for example, gather a group together to raid or hunt other species that they will eat, and cooperation between members of many species is very common - when planning future events. You really do need to brush up on these matters. And many animal species remember quite a lot from the past, such as who has wronged them, been their friend, etc., - no thought to the past? :wolfface:

Among all of the lifeforms that inhabit this planet, who can argue that humans are superior in many ways....particularly with regard to intelligence. Only in relatively recent times have humans become so enamoured with their own intelligence that they have abandoned belief in God to turn to worship of their own intellect....making gods out of high ranking scientists and those acclaimed in the world of academia.

I'm sure that the Creator finds human egos rather amusing. I know I do. :D

Not half as amusing as many seem to find you. You know, there was a time before religions took hold. Were we really just animals then? Many would see the era of religions as being the dark ages - me for one. :p
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
This is garbage. Concept or not, even lowly creatures like some birds and squirrels for example plan the future, by stashing food away from prying eyes. Many other animals plan for the future - chimpanzees for example, gather a group together to raid or hunt other species that they will eat, and cooperation between members of many species is very common - when planning future events. You really do need to brush up on these matters. And many animal species remember quite a lot from the past, such as who has wronged them, been their friend, etc., - no thought to the past? :wolfface:

Indeed!

Animals display lots of "intelligence". I put the word in quotations only because what we usually call intelligence doesn't really exist at all.

A few weeks ago I saw a female cardinal land at the top of a very unstable stalk of hosta seeds in order to eat them. Cardinals seem to eat these every January even if they have access to the sunflower seeds that are among their favorites. They preferentially eat hostas in January. As it was balancing on the stalk its mate landed at the point that this stalk intersected another one and grabbed them both with his feet which stabilized the stalk allowing the female to more easily get the seeds at the top of the stalk.

This is most assuredly not "instinct". One could argue that making sacrifices to keep a mate is instinct but certainly not the calculations this bird had to make to solve the problem.

Only modern humans lack instinct and it's not so much they don't exist as it is that we overrule them in most cases by using knowledge and belief instead. We can get away with this because we've mostly eliminated the human predators in our environments.

Our understanding of evolution is wrong. Experiment is right but this has been extrapolated incorrectly.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
This is garbage. Concept or not, even lowly creatures like some birds and squirrels for example plan the future, by stashing food away from prying eyes. Many other animals plan for the future - chimpanzees for example, gather a group together to raid or hunt other species that they will eat, and cooperation between members of many species is very common - when planning future events. You really do need to brush up on these matters. And many animal species remember quite a lot from the past, such as who has wronged them, been their friend, etc., - no thought to the past? :wolfface:



Not half as amusing as many seem to find you. You know, there was a time before religions took hold. Were we really just animals then? Many would see the era of religions as being the dark ages - me for one. :p


It always kind of surprises me how nominal Christians are so free about
simply making things up, saying whatever opinion comes to mind for all the world as if it were somehow established fact.

There is no integrity in it at all.

Then, they think that we should somehow accept their word on things
far more difficult to "know" than some simple biology? ha. Not a chance
there is just no credibility there at all.

Unless they are shills for some anti religious cause, they might do welld
to go hide and keep their mouths shut, as ambassadors for the Faith, they
are not much of a success.
 
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