What sort of evidence do you wish to see?
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Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Just to remind you, I also asked... "Who does it say is coming back in those verses?" And here are those verses again:
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air.
It says the "Lord" himself will come down. In context of what Paul is saying here isn't the "Lord" he's talking about Jesus?14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air.
In this Passage it is Baha'u'llah the Father that is the 'Lord' that will return. God is above all names and does not descend into creation. The context is, that in this life our body dies and will decompose. It is Spirit and Mind that lives on, it is spirit and mind that are the component that gets 'Born Again' in the Matrix of this world, as it is obvious we do not go back to the womb of our mother.
To understand who Baha'u'llah is, we must read God Passes by by Shoghi Effendi - Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103 - At this link go down to the last paragraph on page 94 and read through to page 100. This is all the titles given to Baha'u'llah from all the Holy Books of the Past. There is also a list given for the Titles attributed to the Bab in this same book.
This conclusion is a mind boggling statement all in one sentence!
"...In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order." Shoghi Effendi - "God Passes By"
Regards Tony
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Can you send me the verses wherein Christ is promised to come and turn earth into a Paradise under one government, one rule, eliminate war, sickness, hunger, mega rich, the wicked ones who think they can commit any crime, white or black, without having to answer for it?
Can you send me the verses where Christ promised he shall come back and make all pay as they deserve, some with mercy and others without?
Take your time, as I won't be able to get back to this for a while since I am very busy answering so many posts from yesterday and today.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Okay, I see you are going to make me pick these apart.
14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
You said: Who would that be that Jesus is bringing and where is he bringing them to?
Baha’i: Jesus is bringing those who have fallen asleep (the spiritually dead).
Christian: Jesus is bringing those who have died and are asleep in their physical graves.
There is no indication where Jesus is bringing them TO. That verse makes no sense as written because God cannot bring anyone with Jesus and it does not say where TO.
15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Baha’i: According to God’s word, those who are still spiritually alive when God comes will not be brought before those who were spiritually dead. In other words, the spiritually dead will be brought first. They will wake up to the new Revelation from God before the people who were already spiritually alive.
Christian: According to God’s word, those who are still physically alive when Jesus comes will not be brought before those who were physically dead. In other words, the physically dead will be brought first. They will rise from their physical graves before the people who are still physically alive.
You said: Then it says the "Lord himself will come down from heaven" who is this Lord in the context of these verses?
16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Baha’i: Baha’u’llah came down from the heaven of the will of God and it caused quite a tumult, Baha’u’llah spoke like a loud trumpet, and the spiritually dead people were the first to recognize Baha’u’llah.
Christian: The man Jesus came down from heaven on a cloud from the sky with angels and trumpets playing, and the physically dead people in their graves rose before the people who were still alive.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air.
Here is how I think Christians say it will happen. First the bodies will rise from cemeteries and then the people who are still alive (never died) will meet with the bodies that rose from the cemeteries and BOTH those groups will meet Jesus in the air. I have no idea what is supposed to happen after that.
I do not give a rip what Christians “say.” Paul did not say it was physical. Most Christians simply interpreted it that way. I have an explanation but I won’t post it because you will just get mad again.
But here is the link to the book in case you want to check it out: The Great ResurrectionNo, I disagree with you. The verses do not imply that just because Paul talks about a resurrection because Paul never used the word BODY. Christians assumed it meant bodies would rise because of something in the OT. If Christians were willing to read the Gospel of John they would know that Jesus never planned to come back: case closed.
You can believe that if you want to but Jesus Himself negates that He will ever return. These verses are not the kind of verses that have more than one meaning and they are not difficult to understand. There is only one plain meaning.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to doand He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.
Then in the next chapter you have these verses:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
Where does Paul say it will be a glorified body that they will get? I need to see the actual verses.
Paul is not necessarily wrong, but please note that Liberal Christians have a different interpretation of the resurrection (similar to Baha is) so it is not only Baha’is who disagree with fundamentalist Christians:
What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death
(Continued on next post)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nowhere in the Baha’i theology of Progressive Revelationdoes it say that we believe what the “followers” of the older religions taught and believed. It says that we believe in the series of divine Messengers who revealed teachings to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance. So we recognize the divine origin of those older religions but we also realize that we have no authentic scriptures from them and that man has tampered with what we did have.
Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_Baha'i
Do you want to know why Baha'is don't believe in any of the other religions as taught and believed by their followers today...? Because NONE of those followers of those religions had the original scriptures of the Prophet Founders of those religions, so what did they have to follow? All they had was the closest to what the Prophet Purportedly said. On top of that, those followers veered from the teachings that they DID HAVE… Baha’u’llah explains what happened in a nutshell, and why we need to turn to His Revelation. This is not brain science; it is rather simple:
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172
Forget Buddhism and Hinduism and the eastern line of religion. They do not have any kind of scriptures that were preserved in their original form (although Abdu’l-Baha wrote that the Buddha taught the Oneness of God and look how far from that Buddhists are today.) Bahais believe Krishna was the one Propjet who established Hinduism and Hindus believe in many gods, it is just a mess. At least Jews and Christians have some scriptures that have some backing as far as where they originated and they are monotheists… And of course the Qur’an is MUCH more authentic than the Torah or the Bible.
But here is the main point I want to make. God never intended for the Jews and Christians to fully understand their scriptures until the time of the end. As such, the Bible was never fully understood, which is why Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”
Many shall run to and fro because they do not understand what the Bible really means; then knowledge will be increased at the time of the end.
That is why Daniel 12:9 says “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”Then Daniel 12:12 says “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”
The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed.
There is a starting point from which the waiting in Dan 12:12 began, and the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days comes out to 1844, the exact year the Bab came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah. This and the math is explained by Abdu’l-Baha in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.
We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means that it can be fully understood. So why are we even talking about all of this… It is really a waste of time and an exercise in futility. On another forum I frequent, The Jews and Christians have been arguing for a decade or longer. There is a thread that was started eight years ago called Why Jesus is not a God and it is still alive and active and it has 32,255 posts on it. If the Bible is so easy to understand, why are Christians and Jews still arguing with each other; not only that but Jews and Christians disagree among themselves.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The red herring is whether the NT teachings were meant by the writers to be taken literally or not. That is a red herring because it distracts from the main point, which is that regardless of why, most Christians DID interpret the NT literally. It does not matter why, because we can never really know why, and that would change anything now anyway.
Correct, I suppose you could blame the writers of the NT for writings what they did, but why does that even matter now? What’s done is done and we cannot change or rewrite history. It is more important to ask where we go from here. I mean as I said on another thread, 50% of Christians in the United States believe that Jesus is going to return someday, and there are Christians all over the world who believe this… Don’t you think that is very serious if all those people are deluded, if Baha’u’llah is actually the one that the OT and NT were referring to? It not only means they will never recognize Baha’u’llah, but it also means they will continue waiting for Jesus even though Jesus will never come. This holds up the progress of humanity because most Christians who are waiting for Jesus believe that Jesus will wave a magic wand when He returns and all the world’s problems will be fixed immediately, even climate change will just be reversed in an instant.
Correct. What if it is just myths and legends? We cannot know how much of it is made up stories and how much is true, but WHY does it even matter now? We have a new revelation from God. If you believe what you suspect what should bother you is that a huge number of people in the world actually believe those stories as if they were real and the implications of that belief!
NO, as I said before, the prophecies are not the same as the stories such as about the resurrection. The OT prophecies were attributed to actual prophets such as Isaiah and others and they are liable to be accurate. The NT prophecies were given by Jesus in His gospels, not by Paul, so they are liable to be fairly accurate. One way we can test that is to look at what happened before during and after the Bab and Baha’u’llah came and see how that lines up with those prophecies. Simply put, it does. Many of those prophecies are in the book entitled Thief in the Night.
Baha’is do not have to interpret prophecies to prove who Baha’u’llah was but they are part of the evidence. What we have that Christians do not have are the Bab and Baha’u’llah who actually came and fulfilled those prophecies. Some of them are very precise. You should read Thief in the Night.
In fact all Dispensations (All contending sects and factions) of the past have been Abrogated;
"In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures, disclaims any intention of lowering the status of their Founders or of abating the spiritual ideals they inculcate, clarifies and correlates their functions, reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast evolving and constantly changing society, and proclaims its readiness and ability to fuse and incorporate the contending sects and factions into which they have fallen into a universal Fellowship, functioning within the framework, and in accordance with the precepts, of a divinely conceived, a world-unifying, a world-redeeming Order." Shoghi Effendi "God Passes by"
Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103
Regards Tony
The way I see this is that past scriptures have recorded our mistakes and sealed books were a result of our transgressions against the Word. To me God has always wished for us to Know and Love God.
Baha'u'llah has offered this and as Gods Word are Timeless, I would assume it was also the former intent;
"....Every verse which this Pen hath revealed is a bright and shining portal that discloseth the glories of a saintly and pious life, of pure and stainless deeds. The summons and the message which We gave were never intended to reach or to benefit one land or one people only. Mankind in its entirety must firmly adhere to whatsoever hath been revealed and vouchsafed unto it. Then and only then will it attain unto true liberty...." Baha'u'llah : Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas
Worth a thought.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Wow...
is all I can say... I have never seen that quote which is what I get for not reading God Passes By all these years ... Meanwhile I have been trying to explain this in my own words all these years, and worrying I might have been wrong to use the word abrogated, when I could have read Shoghi Effendi...
But now thanks to you I have that passage saved in a Word doc in several folders for easy access.
I will be using that passage the very next time a certain Christian on another forum comes at me, but not before he earns it...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That certainly is another way to look at it...
If that is true though, the authors of the Bible could not have been led by the Holy Spirit... Because if they were led by the Holy Spirit there could have been no transgressions... But any mistakes that entered into the Bible still did not prevent people from Knowing and Loving God... Jews and Christians knew as much as they could know at that time and they sure did Love God.
I agree... God's Word is timeless, as Jesus said:
Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, yeah, all that's fine... for all those that believe in the Baha'i Faith. But, 2000 years ago Paul was writing a letter to new Christians. There was no NT yet. If Paul use the name "Jesus" in one verse and then the "Lord" in another, why would those readers not think he meant Jesus when he uses the word "Lord"? After all, who was called Lord by Christians? If a verse says that the "Lord" is going to return, why wouldn't they think that Jesus was the one returning. Why would they think Jesus was dead and buried, when the gospels did get written, it made it seem like Jesus had come back to life? If Jesus isn't Lord. If Jesus isn't the one returning, then Christianity has been teaching a lie for 2000 years. But it's not their fault. The writers of the NT made it seem like it was Jesus, a come back to life, a death conquering God/man, that was returning to judge the living and dead and cast God's enemy, Satan, into a fiery abyss. If none of that is true, then they, the writers of the NT got it wrong and past it on to the new Christian believers.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, yeah, all that's fine... for all those that believe in the Baha'i Faith. But, 2000 years ago Paul was writing a letter to new Christians. There was no NT yet. If Paul use the name "Jesus" in one verse and then the "Lord" in another, why would those readers not think he meant Jesus when he uses the word "Lord"? After all, who was called Lord by Christians? If a verse says that the "Lord" is going to return, why wouldn't they think that Jesus was the one returning. Why would they think Jesus was dead and buried, when the gospels did get written, it made it seem like Jesus had come back to life? If Jesus isn't Lord. If Jesus isn't the one returning, then Christianity has been teaching a lie for 2000 years. But it's not their fault. The writers of the NT made it seem like it was Jesus, a come back to life, a death conquering God/man, that was returning to judge the living and dead and cast God's enemy, Satan, into a fiery abyss. If none of that is true, then they, the writers of the NT got it wrong and past it on to the new Christian believers.
So what do you believe about the NT? Does it contain the truth from God to bring humanity to the next level? And what did Christianity bring? Some Baha'is have said that Christianity was already in its "winter" by 600 AD. So God had to send another messenger. But, as we've been discussing, Christianity was already wrong from the beginning. How about Islam? How long before it was wrong? Baha'is have used the leaders of Islam as the beasts and dragons of the Book of Revelation. So, in a way, civilization has progressed in spite of religion.The red herring is whether the NT teachings were meant by the writers to be taken literally or not. That is a red herring because it distracts from the main point, which is that regardless of why, most Christians DID interpret the NT literally. It does not matter why, because we can never really know why, and that would change anything now anyway.
Correct, I suppose you could blame the writers of the NT for writings what they did, but why does that even matter now? What’s done is done and we cannot change or rewrite history. It is more important to ask where we go from here. I mean as I said on another thread, 50% of Christians in the United States believe that Jesus is going to return someday, and there are Christians all over the world who believe this… Don’t you think that is very serious if all those people are deluded, if Baha’u’llah is actually the one that the OT and NT were referring to? It not only means they will never recognize Baha’u’llah, but it also means they will continue waiting for Jesus even though Jesus will never come. This holds up the progress of humanity because most Christians who are waiting for Jesus believe that Jesus will wave a magic wand when He returns and all the world’s problems will be fixed immediately, even climate change will just be reversed in an instant.
Correct. What if it is just myths and legends? We cannot know how much of it is made up stories and how much is true, but WHY does it even matter now? We have a new revelation from God. If you believe what you suspect what should bother you is that a huge number of people in the world actually believe those stories as if they were real and the implications of that belief!
NO, as I said before, the prophecies are not the same as the stories such as about the resurrection. The OT prophecies were attributed to actual prophets such as Isaiah and others and they are liable to be accurate. The NT prophecies were given by Jesus in His gospels, not by Paul, so they are liable to be fairly accurate. One way we can test that is to look at what happened before during and after the Bab and Baha’u’llah came and see how that lines up with those prophecies. Simply put, it does. Many of those prophecies are in the book entitled Thief in the Night.
Baha’is do not have to interpret prophecies to prove who Baha’u’llah was but they are part of the evidence. What we have that Christians do not have are the Bab and Baha’u’llah who actually came and fulfilled those prophecies. Some of them are very precise. You should read Thief in the Night.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” Sorry, that's been abrogated.That certainly is another way to look at it...
But any mistakes that entered into the Bible still did not prevent people from Knowing and Loving God... Jews and Christians knew as much as they could know at that time and they sure did Love God.
I agree... God's Word is timeless, as Jesus said:
Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do you know what's happened to Adrian? And Investigate Truth and Lover of humanity also.
I personally see nothing wrong with the Bible and the way it is written in the light of Baha'u'llahs Explanations.
2000 years ago Christ gave spiritual metaphors to people who could not grasp and understand the potential of a Global Message. Baha'u'llah has explained that level of complexity to us.
Baha'u'llah, has to me, now given a Universal Message and we are yet to grasp the enormity that it will be, we were still not ready to hear what God wished to tell us. There are writings that tell us this is so.
It is not surprising we struggle to see its import.
Regards Tony
They are most likely abiding by Baha'u'llahs Wisdom I would say.
We are on day 10 of our 19 days fast, no food or drink sunrise to sunset.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The NT contained enough truth to carry us to the next stage in our spiritual evolution. What Jesus said was that powerful, in spite of the false beliefs of Christianity itself.
I do not know that much about Islam, but from what I know, most Muslims are closer to the truth about God than any other religion except Baha’i, which would make sense since they are right behind us.
Yes, humanity has progressed in spite of the errors that religions have made because what God revealed through the Messengers is that powerful.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, the Bible as not been abrogated. Only the Dispensation of Jesus Christ has been abrogated.
"In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures,” God Passes By, Page 100
And so the Buddhist refer to their god as “the god” or “allah” in Arabic or “Elohim” in Hebrew, but that does not mean they are the same as the “True God/Elohim, Jehovah, or Yahweh if the Bible. That’s why it says in Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods/elohim before me"
The word “god” or “allah” is NOT a name or a proper name like “Jehovah” “the God” of the bible.
The Muslims or Bahai Faith or Buddhist would NOT refer to their gods as “Jehovah”.
Buhhda is the proper name of “the god” of Buddhist. So, if a Buddhist who speaks Arabic or Hebrew would say “the god” “allah” or “Elohim” then it meant “Buddha”, right?
So, if one says “the god” of the muslims or bahai faith or any other religions then it does not mean they are talking about “Jehovah” but about their “gods” or “Elohim” or "allah" or "buddha"