Oeste
Well-Known Member
Which "error filled trinity translation" led your Governing Board to believe the "ancient worthies" would be resurrected in 1925, and what "correction" to the "error filled trinity translation" did they make to fix it?
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Jehovah's Witness cartoon suggests to Children that magic-themed toys make Jehovah 'sad'
- Thread starter Buddha Dharma
- Start date
Which "error filled trinity translation" led your Governing Board to believe the "ancient worthies" would be resurrected in 1925, and what "correction" to the "error filled trinity translation" did they make to fix it?
kjw47
Well-Known Member
You are saying that God speaks error at the proper time.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
It wasn't hidden from them--God hid many truths-Dan 12:4) for those after the apostles died and Christians were murdered. until these last days-then truth would become abundant--it has, but those that live by old untruths reject it.
shmogie said:
Oeste said:
We did not choose the names of the days of the weeks or the months of the year. But we live in a world that correlates everything by the Gregorian calendar, so we are stuck with the present system for dating things for now. The present calendar, incidentally, was introduced by Pope Gregory, replacing the old Julian calendar. Perhaps you need to take this issue up with the Catholic church and ask why "Christians" would have chosen to stay with the names of pagan deities ?
The months of the year and days of the week are not ever acknowledged as part of our worship. Like names that are chosen for us by our parents, we might hate them but we are stuck with them for the present.
Christmas and Easter are an intrinsic part of Christendom's worship...there is a big difference.
Hmmm...so you are not open or honest with someone who was once considered like a brother? That says a lot about you actually. I wish I could show my brother your true colors. I'm sure he would be incredibly disappointed to hear what you have said about our brotherhood on these boards. Like Judas.
The 'shunning' (disfellowshipping) is Biblical....The apostle Paul warned the Corinthians of the danger of allowing willful (unrepentant) wrongdoers to remain in close company with fellow members of the congregation. He compared the bad influence of such ones to that of leaven in a lump of dough...“A little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough". He then counseled them: “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:6, 11-13; Ecclesiastes 8:11)
Those who fail to follow the Bible's admonition will pay the price.
Apostates will not be tolerated either for the same reason.
"But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. . . . and they are subverting the faith of some. Despite that, the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and, “Let everyone calling on the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.” (2 Timothy 2:14-19; Hebrews 12:6)
We do what the Bible recommends and it always turns out for the best. Discipline will humble righteous ones but it will only inflame the proud and haughty. Its the way God sifts out those whom he deems to be "unsuitable fish". (Matthew 13:47-50)
Its a "cap fits" kind of thing.
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kjw47
Well-Known Member
it matters what God thinks--a 1000 years is as a day. So it was less than 2 days ago to God when the pagan additives were brought in. You weren't even born. Satan beat 99% living now centuries ago in all the false religions and pagan practices in the worlds celebrations.
Can you prove that Matthew 24:45 means food at the proper time to the whole household at once?
It can also be translated that the servant gives to each person ate THEIR proper time. How do you know that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is right that it means everyone at the same time?
kjw47
Well-Known Member
One would have to commit suicide to get away from the days of the week or months--so your reasoning is in error. One does not have to partake of the world celebrations. And false god worship. The ones who fit in with the world that Jesus taught to be no part of do. Satan added the things off that table centuries before you were born.
What Bible are you quoting from?
And, how do you know that the leaven does not refer to the teaching of error?
1 Corinthians 5:13 Greek Text Analysis
Please, notice that it is not written "person" or "man" but plain evil.
13 while God judges those outside?+ “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”+
The word person is an add-on or leaven.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Yes he made that error--over zealousness caused it. Imperfect men err.
How would you be being satans #1 target on earth--could you stand perfectly? The important thing is they have corrected their errors.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
You are remarkably inconsistent in your logic.
If I recall, Jehovah Witnesses didn't choose our holidays either. Yet that doesn't stop them from shouting "Pagan!" when they hear Easter or Christmas.
Be consistent in your assertions Deeje. If you're going to rail against Easter, rail against Sunday as well.
The present calendar, incidentally, was introduced by Pope Gregory, replacing the old Julian calendar. Perhaps you need to take this issue up with the Catholic church and ask why "Christians" would have chosen to stay with the names of pagan deities ?
But it is not the historic church that has an issue with Easter, Christmas, or by extension the days of the week. What exactly would you have us take against the Catholic church? Wouldn't that put us on the same unequal footing you find yourself in now?
Sure they are! You acknowledge them all the time.
I posted one of your signs stating that services will be held on the day of the Sun god, rather than the 1st day of the week. If you doubt this, look up the origins of "Sunday". As KJW would say, the pagan origins of Sunday are "100% fact".
Difference???
Your worship days are intrinsically linked with Sunday (Sun god), Tuesday (Tyr, god of war), Wodin, the "Supreme Deity" of the Norse, Thursday (god of Thunder), and Saturday (Saturn, god of fun and feasting) when they can just as easily be held on 1st day, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 7th day if you wish.
I'm hard pressed to see this "intrinsic" difference.
We still consider ourselves brothers, and yes, I am quite open with him.
Thank you! You have me blushing now.
Probably no more disappointed then I was to hear what the Watchtower said about the brotherhood who attend "Christendom" churches. The flyer claims "Christendom" "tolerates" child molesters when, at the time, the very Kingdom Hall that left the flyer on my door was being investigated for allegations of child molestation.
Even thought the Kingdom Hall was being investigated, neither my church nor any other Christian church left flyers on the doorsteps of neighbors claiming Jehovah Witnesses "tolerated" child molesters. If our reluctance to point fingers makes us a "Like Judas" in your eyes, so be it.
Again, I much rather find consistency than scapegoat with your assertions.
I don't have a problem with shunning if shunning is something you feel you need to do. It's what you shun for that I have a problem with. A lot of it is not at all biblical.
For example, nowhere in the bible does it say we should not speak with an unrepentant sinner. Instead, Christ tells us we should treat them as we do "...a pagan or tax collector". Matthew 15:18-17
In other words, tread them like the unsaved or someone who needs to be evangelized. If Jesus refused to speak to pagans and tax collectors I am unaware of it.
As for apostates, that is a label you slap on the back of folks leaving a Kingdom Hall for another church, but for some reason, never the ones leaving a Christian Church to enter a Kingdom Hall.
It just smacks of more inconsistency.
Well the next time an unrepentant sinner petitions your Elders to make a speech before the entire Kingdom Hall, including those new, just introduced, or weak in the faith, you can remind him of these verses.
However there should be no problem even if he made an empty speech before your baptized members because it is they who have "...the solid foundation of God" and can "remain standing, having this seal" because "Jehovah knows those who belong to him".
Remember, their is a specific order to be followed:
Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector. (Matthew 18:15-17)
The person has a right to be bring his case before the congregation, not just before two or three witnesses Deeje. You can't skip a step here or there. Biblical principals must be followed otherwise you introduce "error".
It is only after he refuses to listen to the congregation that you can treat him as a "man of the nations" (pagan) or "tax collector", not before.
If the sinner was denied his biblically mandated opportunity to address the congregation, he was not biblically discharged from the body of Christ.
Dis-fellowship from the body of Christ is an extremely serious spiritual matter and the bible provides specific enumerated safeguards that are designed to protect the flock. When an Organization short circuits or circumvents a biblical directive they do so at their own spiritual peril.
In short, "It makes Jehovah sad."
The "cap" doesn't fit. Your Organization too quickly hands the accused a cap in order to get them out their doors.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
And yet you said that your god "says what goes: 100%" in his creation. Which contradicts free will. So either your god had a hand in the creation of warrior-wizard toys (by allowing them to be made), or this isn't your god's creation and he has no say what goes on.
Ostara - the Pagan festival of the Spring Equinox - has nothing to do with colored eggs. That is an Eastern Orthodox Slavic tradition, developed during the Medieval Period.
Rabbits have no direct tie to Ostara or spring, but are notoriously fertile and an obvious allegory to life returning to the world.
A common misassociation, and flatly false. Ananna-Ishtar has no ties whatsoever to spring or spring-related festivals. "Easter" comes from "Eostre"; the Northumbrian name for Ostara, the goddess of the dawn.
If you're going to go on about this "table of demons" nonsense, then you might as well count the natural world as evil, as that's what Ostara celebrates.
Easter is, however, placed based on the Spring Equinox and some pretty Pagan methods. It is always the first Sunday after the full moon following the Equinox.
The decoration of a tree has no clear origin. As best can be told, the first Christmas Tree was put up by Queen Victoria's consort in 1840.
Jól (Yule) was a festival of light on the darkest day of the year, the Winter Solstice. The only correlation of a tree was a large log formed from the trunk of a single tree set to burn in the Jarl's longhouse all throughout the season, giving warmth and light to his guests. Mistletoe was also prominent, likely in conjunction with the myth of Baldur.
Saturnalia was on the 17th of December.
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
My goodness KJW! The early church was SURROUNDED by pagans, worshiping this pagan god, in this pagan temple, with this pagan priest, under the auspices of a pagan government who were willing and ready to feed any Christian they could find to the lions. Did they commit suicide?
And here you are, unable to call Sunday the "1st day" of the week.
What a hardship!
Surely Jehovah would never expect such a thing. Lions? Sure, but a day of the week is simply way, way, way too much.
Consistency, KJW! If you're going to apply it to the goose your gander will be waiting.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
You know, in Russian, the word for "Sunday" (Воскресенье) means "The Day of Revival", probably because the week restarts then. Monday (Понедельник) means "On the Week" because it's the first day of the week.
If the JW's are really so up in arms about "Paganisms in muh culture!" then one would think that they'd just make names for their own calendars. You know, like the Jews have been doing for centuries.
If the JW's are really so up in arms about "Paganisms in muh culture!" then one would think that they'd just make names for their own calendars. You know, like the Jews have been doing for centuries.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
I would have to agree Ragin Pagin.
I can show them where to download a Microsoft Word template that allows them to change the months or days as necessary, or even create one on line.
It's not difficult at all, involves no mass suicides as KJW suggests, and would show the world they are serious, rather than just pontificating about paganism.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about you....
This is beyond twisted.....seriously. If you want to celebrate your socks off...knock yourself out. I think it is best to allow the judge to find us guilty or innocent.
But we are told plainly in scripture NOT to combine pagan beliefs with Christian truth.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ESV...
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
17 Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
18 and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”
We are not to touch what is spiritually "unclean" or else God will not accept us as his sons and daughters.
Any encyclopedia will inform you of the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter. They have no place in Christianity as the scripture above makes clear.
It was not the historic church that set any kind of a good example though, was it? Pope Gregory's calendar, awash with pagan deities, wasn't even the half of it. The mother church set a bad example for her daughters.
We acknowledge days, not deities. It wasn't our choice to call them by those names and there is no inclusion of those deities in our worship. Nice try. And since these deities do not even exist, what is all the ballyhoo about?
It is Christendom that holds Sunday as its Sabbath is it not? That makes Christendom inextricably tied to sun worship. We have no set "holy" days in our week. We worship our God every day. Our meetings are scheduled for convenience, not assigned to any particular day. God will fix the calendar in his own time. Perhaps you need to stop throwing garbage in our backyard before you clean up your own?
Are you fudging the truth again? You said he would in all probability "shut off contact" with you if he knew what you posted online about JW's. Do you consider yourself an honest person? You just proved that you aren't.
Oh brother! Who can converse rationally with such a twisted view? All religious organizations were investigated for child abuse after what came to light with the Roman Catholic church's systemic abuse in its institutions probably for centuries. ...even the Boy Scouts were included! Seriously! We can no more keep pedophiles out of our Kingdom Halls than anyone else. Christian trust makes us a target sometimes. But our elders are not the police....if someone wants to bring charges against someone for the crime of child abuse then they are free to report it to the authorities. Any brother convicted of repeated or unrepentant abuse of children or even of their spouse, will be disfellowshipped.
But like courts of law, there has to be evidence that an offense took place. Most incidents of child abuse do not have any witnesses but God. You can't just go around accusing people without due process. I have no idea what "fliers" you are talking about. I have no knowledge of such fliers. If JW's do something publicly, we do it as a body.
Our elders are serious about the safety of our lambs as well as the rest of the flock. I can't say the same for the churches in general though. They do not confront wrongdoers and they do not disfellowship those who are unrepentant sinners. That makes their congregations subject to lots of leaven.
The inconsistency is all in your twisted evaluation of everything. You don't like JW's? Fine...just don't go around making baseless accusations that you gleaned from some apostate's website. It reflects badly on you...not us.
John told us what to do about those who want to throw their own ideas around in the congregation....
"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."
So much for speaking with unrepentant sinners. These apostates were those "inside" the congregation who stirred up trouble over doctrine.....but sinners on the "outside", needed a physician....so this is why Jesus spoke to them and sought them out....they were the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom he was sent.
OK...lets take that point. Who in the congregation was responsible for keeping things in order....everyone? Or were there elders and deacons who were assigned to do that?
When Paul gave instructions to remove an unrepentant sinner from the congregation, who was to judge that person? Everyone?
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 ESV...
"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
Who was to do the judging inside the congregation? It was those in positions of responsibility, not members in general.
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."
Get the picture?
You see only what you want to see.
Most disfellowshipping does not take place from the body of Christ these days. There are very few of them left on earth as they are almost all in heaven now awaiting the "Marriage of the Lamb" with the full complement of his "bride". (Revelation 21:2-4) The end of this system of things must come first.
The majority of Jehovah's Witnesses alive today will enjoy a physical paradise on a cleansed earth under their guidance and with the best King any people could ever have.
There are a great many safeguards in place to protect the flock so that those who have a contentious disposition will not stay among us for long, nor will they be in agreement with our mode of discipline. It doesn't matter. The very fact that our organization has such high standards is why we enjoy such peace and unity in a global brotherhood......there are no complainers spoiling it for everyone else.
First, we have to wonder if The Holy Spirit can keep them out. It puts the good ones in positions of authority. Doesn't it?
Secondly, it's about time to stop calling the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses a "spiritual paradise". Don't you think?
It has been taught by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is a spiritual paradise.
But, now, with the knowledge that there have been serious instances of the mishandling of children of the organization we know that it really isn't a paradise. But, I understand it is what Jehovah's Witnesses are aiming for and that is OK imo.
Now, you have been asked many times on this forum and I am sure that on the internet all these years JWs have been asked why the governing body does not publically edit their errors. Do you understand?
I do not know if the Watchtower still publishes that YOU are a spiritual paradise. It isn't one for the families that have suffered serious offenses against the law. That is 100% fact.
So, my point. To actually correct that error, it is NOT enough to just stop teaching it. The reason why is because it is written and anyone reading it might believe that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is a safe haven. Safe. Right? It isn't.
Now, the job of the governing body is to repeal that rule so that mothers and fathers can keep a watch over their children and NOT trust that The Holy Spirit is doing it.
What I am saying is that instead of just changing a teaching or not teaching it anymore the governing body must learn how to register the change. It isn't hard to do! Why don't they do it? I know why. Do you?