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Lying

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Most people who I have seen speak of lying say it is lying only if the person is saying something that he or she knows isn't true.

And, I am tending to agree with that conclusion.

BUT

Saying something that isn't true, but not knowing it isn't, is perfect proof of the person's willingness to lie..... subconscious though it might be.

Let's say that every mind is actually just a part of one mind. Then, a person's willingness to lie supports the liars' lies.

If a person will speak what isn't true without knowing, why is lying knowingly bad? It isn't!
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Most people who I have seen speak of lying say it is lying only if the person is saying something that he or she knows isn't true.

And, I am tending to agree with that conclusion.

BUT

Saying something that isn't true, but not knowing it isn't, is perfect proof of the person's willingness to lie..... subconscious though it might be.

Let's say that every mind is actually just a part of one mind. Then, a person's willingness to lie supports the liars' lies.

If a person will speak what isn't true without knowing, why is lying knowingly bad? It isn't!

You need to change your defintion

Lying is a person saying something they know isn't true to gain an advantage. It's the to gain an advantage that determines it being bad. No one lies just to lie they lie for a reason.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's more than just knowing it's untrue, lies presume deliberate deception.
I don't consider telling a bedtime story or singing Puff the Magic Dragon to be lying.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You need to change your defintion

Lying is a person saying something they know isn't true to gain an advantage. It's the to gain an advantage that determines it being bad. No one lies just to lie they lie for a reason.
OK. But I see many, many times that some people lie without knowing what they say isn't true to gain an advantage.

An example? The end is very near, so you should exit the ways of society, do what we say you should do and you will be rewarded. The Bible says so!
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's more than just knowing it's untrue, lies presume deliberate deception.
I don't consider telling a bedtime story or singing Puff the Magic Dragon to be lying.
Oh yes, of course. I wasn't talking about stories. I am talking about the things people believe in to obey.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If someone asked me if what she put on isn't flattering I would tell her what I really thought, but kindly. I am a fast thinking.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The willingness to lie to gain an advantage is making licenses for the people who know they lie to gain an advantage.

That is my theory. It is what the thread is about.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK. An answer to, "does this make me look fat?"

Q. "Does this make me look fat?"

A. "Why are you asking ME?"
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
OK. But I see many, many times that some people lie without knowing what they say isn't true to gain an advantage.

An example? The end is very near, so you should exit the ways of society, do what we say you should do and you will be rewarded. The Bible says so!

That is not a lie, there are no specific's, its a vague statement and a prediction. Even if you state the world is going to end tomorrow it is a prediction until tomorrow now when tomorrow comes and you say "see the world ended" that would be a lie.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is not a lie, there are no specific's, its a vague statement and a prediction. Even if you state the world is going to end tomorrow it is a prediction until tomorrow now when tomorrow comes and you say "see the world ended" that would be a lie.
I suppose you are not on the side of the truth. Am I correct?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is a huge difference between saying, "I believe that tomorrow the world will end", and "God has made known to me that tomorrow the world will end".
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I think that what we collectively refer to in the English language as lying is actually many actions and intentions that don't belong under one label. Malicious lying is clearly not the same as saving a person by lying. That's if we're willing to have a complex and serious discussion about ethics rather than stand by a response hammered into us by a narrow puritanical society.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I suppose you are not on the side of the truth. Am I correct?

Truth is fine and good and there is truth in defining things properly. It is problematic expanding a definition to fit your world view.

A lie is a lie. There are many other ways people twist and manipulate the truth and not all of it is lying understanding that is key to not falling prey to untruths.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think that what we collectively refer to in the English language as lying is actually many actions and intentions that don't belong under one label. Malicious lying is clearly not the same as saving a person by lying. That's if we're willing to have a complex and serious discussion about ethics rather than a response hammered into us by a narrow puritanical society.
Good point! But, Jesus was silent instead of lying, I think.

I am thinking of the SS coming to my house and asking, "are there any Jews here?" You need not lie. Just don't say anything. They are going to search anyway. And, if the one asking was actually human, he might know about shock.
 
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