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Christ Has returned, what should have we looked for?

Are you awaiting Christ's return?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 17.2%
  • No

    Votes: 34 58.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • I'm Fence sitting

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • Just a popcorn question

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • Definitly never

    Votes: 8 13.8%
  • He has Come

    Votes: 10 17.2%

  • Total voters
    58

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
We don't know this for sure; we know some prophets got murdered, and we can see Yeshua challenged the Sanhedrin for murdering the prophets as atoning sacrifices in Matthew 23:27-38, Mark 7:1-13, and the Parable of the Wicked Husbandman (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19).

The Oral Tradition, 'The death of the righteous can atone for the sins of that generation' has been applied in terms of Christianity, so the prophets hint that it has been done before as well.

So yeah wasn't meaning want people to believe in me; yet the evidence that is being presented...

Plus why have the evidence, if we just want to remove everyone with fire, why not use the evidence to show the case first.

In my opinion. :innocent:
Lives of the Prophets - Wikipedia

The Lives of the Prophets is an ancient apocryphal account of the lives of the prophets from the Old Testament. It is not regarded as scripture by any Jewish or Christiandenomination. The work may have been known by the author of some of the Pauline Epistles, as there are similarities in the descriptions of the fates of the prophets, although without naming the individuals concerned.
This is supposedly the source for martyrdom stories, not the scriptures, plus it was written in the Common Era at some point. As the New Testament also was written after Jesus, the character of Jesus apparently read texts that didn't get written yet.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: They want the same exact flower and that is the reason they will never recognize .

wizanda said: Baha'u'llah wasn't like Yeshua... Please give reasons that Baha'i think they're similar, and will show with evidence, why this isn't being logical.
I said: “They want the same exact flower and that is the reason they will never recognize Baha'u'llah.”

I never said that Baha’u’llah was like Yeshua. What I said indicates that they were not the same exact flower, which means they were not alike, although they do have some of the same qualities. In brief, they had a different body and a different soul, but they had the same Spirit of God that returns in every season, as loverofhumanity said...

I am going to post a small portion of a longer post that I posted to a Jewish woman on another forum some time ago because it explains how the Manifestations of God (Messengers, Prophets) are different and how they are also the same.

Every human has a soul, including the Prophets (Messengers of God) but only the Prophets manifest the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit), and they all manifest the same Spirit of God since that Spirit is unchanging. However, all Prophets have an individual soul that differs from the soul of the other Prophets. Abdu’l-Baha explains the difference between an ordinary human and a Prophet:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.................

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152


Prophets are the same in the sense that they all “manifest” the same Spirit of God (which is why they are called Manifestations of God). Baha’u’llah called this essential oneness “the Unity of God.”

“These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Gleanings, pp. 50-51

However, all the Prophets are different in the sense that they all have an individual soul and a different physical body and a different mission on earth.

“The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”Gleanings, p. 52
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hello again......... I left the Great Beings thread weeks ago and never returned.
This is a similar thread, looks like a Bahai sell. 'Christ Has returned' stuff.... that must give members the right to challenge, but, sure, I get bored with it all....

It is never sold to those that do not wish to take of a free gift. Responses will be given to offer alterante thought to information posted that is seen to be inconsistant to what was offered. Like all Posts, you are free to come and go, post or not post.

Gods Faiths have always been like that, they give us free will to accept or reject.

There is an overiding Covenant. That Covenant is that God will never leave us alone. Our part in covernant is to accept Gods Messenger and tell people when we have found a Message has been given.

I wish you always well

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Currently I see that it must be a Unity we are yet to understand. We may be like an atom that is part of the sun. All the colours of the virtues are seen as the source of white light, we become part of the light.

We lost our little dog at midnight last night. She had had some operations and did not come out of them well. We buried her this morning with memories that only a sweet liveable dog can give. My wife loves pets as you do.

As I know this subject is dear to your heart. I think they are a gift to teach us virtues we require in our animal condition. Each pet we care for adding to the virtues we can carry forward with. In that way they are always with us.

Regards Tony
My deepest condolences. I know what it is like to lose a beloved pet, although I also know we all respond differently. Nobody but God can ever know how much I love our cats and how much I suffer when I lose one. My husband understands better than anyone else, yet only God knows everything I feel. Cat loss has been the most difficult thing I have had to endure in this mortal life and the only thing that has really tested my faith in God.

It has been almost a year since we have lost a cat, which is a long time given what happened for many years before that. I lost track, but we were averaging a cat per year and then we lost about three per year for several years. It certainly was not for lack of caring for them, as we spent thousands of dollars on surgeries for two cats and we lost both of them right after the operation.

We used to have more but we now have only 11 Persian cats. Two of the oldest ones have kidney disease and one of those has heart disease, but nevertheless they are holding stable. Almost a year ago the one that has the worst kidney disease was diagnosed as end stage chronic renal failure but thanks to my husband giving lactated ringers daily and another medication he gives that helps remove toxins from his blood, that cat has regained about two pounds, which the vet said is very unusual, because they normally never regain the weight they lost, and they usually lose more weight as time goes on. Also, his blood values improved which is unusual. They are still very high but he is stable. This is the first time we have had such a positive experience; we lost both his brothers and both his sisters within the last few years, three from kidney failure.

My husband is also a Baha'i, of 53 years. He used to post on some other forums but one reason you never see him on this forum is that he is too busy caring for the cats. The other reason is that we only have one computer up and running right now and I am on it most of the time. :)
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
This is supposedly the source for martyrdom stories, not the scriptures
Some of their deaths are related in the Hebraic texts of the time, and would still be known by Yeshua, the Essenes, etc, who rejected the Sanhedrin for this same cause.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Bahai is steeped in both religious dogma AND a wish for UNIVERSAL POWER, through its theocracy.
:shrug:
There is and never can be a Baha'i theocracy. That is a gross misrepresentation of what the Baha'i Faith is all about, something those who do not like us use to attack our religion.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….” The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii

A religious dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. The Baha'i Faith has no dogmas because everything that we believe is incontrovertibly true comes directly from Baha'u'llah, not from any clergy. We have the teachings and laws of Baha'u'llah that we follow, but no man-made dogmas like Christianity follows.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
NO! baha'u'llah is not in the Bible. Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, aka, Baha’u’llah, a Persian Shi'ite, came from Ishmael and NOT from Isaac.
Baha'u'llah did not come from Ishmael. Why do you keep saying that, just so you can rule Him out as being the Messiah? It won't work, because Baha'u'llah is descended from David and He sat on the throne of David.

Hopefully, I will only have to post this one more time. :rolleyes:

1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

"The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)


12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
If Christ returns (or Mohammed, or Joseph Smith, or Baha'u'llah or any of the other revelators of our modern religions) just look for anyone to take on the role of "Grand Inquisitor" (Brothers Karamazov, book 5). In any such event, we will have a modern-day religious "authority" who will make the unwelcome re-interloper go away without a great deal of fuss.

In each and every case, our religions today -- all of them -- have changed enough that their founders wouldn't recognize them, and would therefore rail against them. And goodness knows, we can't have that!
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
What is being destroyed in reality are the time held views and superstitions not the physical earth.
Only Revelation makes no mention of the accounts being metaphor, so this is - at best - Baha'i re-writing (or attempting to) another religion's scripture and acting like their interpretation is the truth of it.

Things like racism which have thrived for centuries all of a sudden are becoming outlawed.
No, they're actually not. While mob mentality might hold some level of social sway, it's not actually illegal to be a racist.

It’s the death of an old age and the birth of a new one
As ever, there is no "birth of a new age". There's just a new coat of paint slapped over the old. Do you really think we're any better than, say, Roman times?

moving towards the equality of all people which is the direction we are heading in not world destruction.
Foolishly optimistic. I don't think world tensions have been as high since the Cuban Missile Crisis. And we're not moving towards true equality, it's "equality unless you disagree with the status quo." As ever.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It is never sold to those that do not wish to take of a free gift. Responses will be given to offer alterante thought to information posted that is seen to be inconsistant to what was offered. Like all Posts, you are free to come and go, post or not post.
That's all that any of us seek to do.
Where posts are inconsistent with history, or each other, some of us offer information.

Gods Faiths have always been like that, they give us free will to accept or reject.
Sounds good today, but in a Bahai World those that reject will have no voice, and maybe the Bab's old writings might be embraced by your faith? For now they just sleep.

There is an overiding Covenant. That Covenant is that God will never leave us alone. Our part in covernant is to accept Gods Messenger and tell people when we have found a Message has been given.

I wish you always well

Regards Tony
You talk as if in Certainty, yet you claim to belong to a Faith. Your double-think seems to be too embedded for you to perceive all this.

Come to the Bahai Certainty!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
There is and never can be a Baha'i theocracy. That is a gross misrepresentation of what the Baha'i Faith is all about, something those who do not like us use to attack our religion..
Hello again.....
Trailblazer, you are wrong about this.

Bahai is crammed full of policy. Bahai has a system in embryonic form which would, in a Bahai World have local, national and world houses of justice to legislate, control and run the World.

Bahai laws would be imposed, both criminal and civil and be controlled by the above named houses of justice.
You've even got laws about how to distribute found treasure, inheritances, etc, and you even have judicial sentencing for crimes. What do you think these are all about?

Bahauallah wrote about this is specific detail, and when Bahai say that they will not have anything to do with politics etc, this is simply that they will only support the Bahai way which they hope would one day control all. You would even have your own World police force, an armed police force, a bit like an army I guess?

Bahai is a dormant theocracy, and would waken in a world with a Bahai majority. Bahauallah has written all this down.

Do you really believe that in a World with, say, 80% Bahais that Bahais would just stay out of it all and let the minority vote in governments, legislate and control all, and you would just obey these secular bodies?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's all that any of us seek to do.
Where posts are inconsistent with history, or each other, some of us offer information.

You will never get an honest history from people that have tried to exterminate a Faith from God, or any race or people. You will get a history distorted to support their error of judgement.

If you read of the early believers you will see their intent and it was not to wage war, they just wanted to offer the Love and promise of what was coming and that had just been revealed. It was while sharing that Love and hope, that the Mullah high on pride and want of power, started trying to eradicate what was becoming a fast growing influence. If it was not for those Mullah Persia in a few years would have accepted the Message of the Bab, a different world would have unfolded.

Sounds good today, but in a Bahai World those that reject will have no voice, and maybe the Bab's old writings might be embraced by your faith? For now they just sleep.

These are the Laws for today, they can not be altered. the Universal House of Justice can give levels within those Laws and enact and repeal what is not in the book. The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

You talk as if in Certainty, yet you claim to belong to a Faith. Your double-think seems to be too embedded for you to perceive all this.

There is no double think, this is the promise that is recorded in all the Holy Books of the Past. This is the Day of God, there is absolutely no doubt about this fact.

Come to the Bahai Certainty!

Baha'u'llah has revealed "The Book of Certitude" - The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

Anything one would use from a Holy Book to disprove Baha'u'llah, will disprove any Messenger of the Past. Any proof one can use from a Holy Book to prove a Manifestation of the past, will Prove Baha'ullah,

Do you really believe that in a World with, say, 80% Bahais that Bahais would just stay out of it all and let the minority vote in governments, legislate and control all, and you would just obey these secular bodies?

Now you are talking, you can see the potential. :)

What we can not see is that world of the future. We are far too close to a disintegrating old world order that is falling apart, all the while a New World Order is rolling out in its stead.

Before that day comes about, humanity will face greater trial/trials to which will shake the limbs of mankind and show them that Unity is the only way.

Some of this has already happened, I see the first part of this quote as being the Challenge of the Covernant Breakers against Baha'u'llah;

“The days are approaching their end, and yet the peoples of the earth are seen sunk in grievous heedlessness, and lost in manifest error.” “Great, great is the Cause! The hour is approaching when the most great convulsion will have appeared. I swear by Him Who is the Truth! It shall cause separation to afflict everyone, even those who circle around Me.” “Say: O concourse of the heedless! I swear by God! The promised day is come, the day when tormenting trials will have surged above your heads, and beneath your feet, saying: ‘Taste ye what your hands have wrought!’” “The time for the destruction of the world and its people hath arrived. He Who is the Pre-Existent is come, that He may bestow everlasting life, and grant eternal preservation, and confer that which is conducive to true living.” “The day is approaching when its [civilization’s] flame will devour the cities, when the Tongue of Grandeur will proclaim: ‘The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Praised!’” “O ye that are bereft of understanding! A severe trial pursueth you, and will suddenly overtake you. Bestir yourselves, that haply it may pass and inflict no harm upon you.” “O ye peoples of the world! Know, verily, that an unforeseen calamity is following you, and that grievous retribution awaiteth you. Think not the deeds ye have committed have been blotted from My sight.” “O heedless ones! Though the wonders of My mercy have encompassed all created things, both visible and invisible, and though the revelations of My grace and bounty have permeated every atom of the universe, yet the rod with which I can chastise the wicked is grievous, and the fierceness of Mine anger against them terrible.” “Grieve thou not over those that have busied themselves with the things of this world, and have forgotten the remembrance of God, the Most Great. By Him Who is the Eternal Truth! The day is approaching when the wrathful anger of the Almighty will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto Him.” “Soon will the cry, ‘Yea, yea, here am I, here am I’ be heard from every land. For there hath never been, nor can there ever be, any other refuge to fly to for anyone.” “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You will never get an honest history from people that have tried to exterminate a Faith from God, or any race or people. You will get a history distorted to support their error of judgement.

Unfortunately Bahai has its own distortion of history.
Of course Shia Islam wanted to end a direct threat to its control of Persia.

Many of us can guess what would happen in a Bahai World if groups of people started to proselytize a different religion with differing laws and rules and beliefs to Bahai.

That Bahai Police Force would no-doubt receive very clear instructions about how to proceed. :shrug:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hello again.....
Trailblazer, you are wrong about this.

Bahai is crammed full of policy. Bahai has a system in embryonic form which would, in a Bahai World have local, national and world houses of justice to legislate, control and run the World.

Bahai laws would be imposed, both criminal and civil and be controlled by the above named houses of justice.
Where do you get these ideas? Do you any evidence to back this us, or is it just a personal opinion?
You've even got laws about how to distribute found treasure, inheritances, etc, and you even have judicial sentencing for crimes. What do you think these are all about?
Baha’i Laws only apply to Baha’is will never be imposed upon anyone else. Baha’u’llah wrote that. The UHJ cannot override anything Baha’u’llah wrote because they have their own defined sphere of authority.

A person has to voluntarily choose to become a Baha’i. Nobody else is obligated to follow Baha’i Laws so it is irrelevant how many Laws we have or what they are.
Bahauallah wrote about this is specific detail, and when Bahai say that they will not have anything to do with politics etc, this is simply that they will only support the Bahai way which they hope would one day control all. You would even have your own World police force, an armed police force, a bit like an army I guess?
You said: “this is simply that they will only support the Baha’i way which they hope would one day control all.” How do you know what the Baha’is hope for?

All Bahais hope for is a world of peace and harmony amongst men, period.
Bahai is a dormant theocracy, and would waken in a world with a Bahai majority. Bahauallah has written all this down.
Where has Baha’u’llah written this down? Please quote Baha’u’llah.
Do you really believe that in a World with, say, 80% Bahais that Bahais would just stay out of it all and let the minority vote in governments, legislate and control all, and you would just obey these secular bodies?
Yes, of course I believe it because that is what Baha’u’llah has written, that we cannot intervene in the government of any nation. The Baha’i Faith cannot ever impose their beliefs or system on anyone. We have no interest in doing so.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Anything one would use from a Holy Book to disprove Baha'u'llah, will disprove any Messenger of the Past. Any proof one can use from a Holy Book to prove a Manifestation of the past, will Prove Baha'ullah,

But I'm not using any holy books to disprove Bahai, I'm just reading and researching and investigating for myself.

And like some others that have Individually Investigated for Truth I don't trust Bahai.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Where do you get these ideas? Do you any evidence to back this us, or is it just a personal opinion?
Bahauallah and the Bab wrote about it all.

Where has Baha’u’llah written this down? Please quote Baha’u’llah.
Please just confirm that you, a Bahai know NOTHING about Bahai Laws, Judicial sentencing, civil laws, policing, system of local-national-world election for houses of justice..... please write down that you never knew about any of this, and then we'll bother to show you. But remember, we've done all this before on previous threads here on RF.

Just write done that you don't know about it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Bahauallah and the Bab wrote about it all.
So what if Baha’i laws would be imposed, both criminal and civil and be controlled by the above named houses of justice. If they are, they will only be imposed upon Baha’is, not on anyone else. I guess you did not read the fine print. :rolleyes:
Please just confirm that you, a Bahai know NOTHING about Bahai Laws, Judicial sentencing, civil laws, policing, system of local-national-world election for houses of justice..... please write down that you never knew about any of this, and then we'll bother to show you. But remember, we've done all this before on previous threads here on RF.

Just write done that you don't know about it.
I know about some of that, but so what? None of this applies to anyone else except Baha’is, so just don’t join and you will be a-okay. ;)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
So what if Baha’i laws would be imposed, both criminal and civil and be controlled by the above named houses of justice. If they are, they will only be imposed upon Baha’is, not on anyone else. I guess you did not read the fine print. :rolleyes:

I know about some of that, but so what? None of this applies to anyone else except Baha’is, so just don’t join and you will be a-okay. ;)
I will be ok because a Baha'i world will not exist in my lifetime, but where a majority of the world is Baha'i and Baha'i laws have been imposed, then outsiders most certainly will be subject to Baha'i laws.

You see? You did know about all these conditions after all. True?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What is God's will? According to many eschatologies, it is to remove the ravenous ungodly, for a time of Godliness on earth.

So preemptively to all of this, according to Isaiah 8 the Lord (Immanuel) will come, and be a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense to everyone in someway, as it will present a riddle as Isaiah 29:9-14 says.

Thus tho many think they're wise, as they follow their leaders, and scholars approach to exegesis; what if the whole direction was wrong to begin, and they haven't understood some of the basics properly.

Why would God allow it? As it tests who is true, by those who naturally face the right direction, and refuse the hypocrisy.

It is true Simon, and Paul sound very much similar, badly quoting odd lines out of context like a Pharisee; with John adding Hellenized Gnosticism into the Sanhedrin's impressions of Yeshua.

In my opinion.
:innocent:

The Isaiah quotation is used by Paul to explain the error in trusting works rather than in Yeshua--Romans 10. Eliminating many NT books leads to this error and others in my opinion.
 
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