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Early American History was Intertwined with Faith

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What we might call "conventional Christian theology" wasn't very popular with the FF that signed our DoI and AoC.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member

The other side -- the things that people don't know such as Jeffersons "other Bible" and Washington Deism.
It’s a shame most Americans don’t have the same faith our founders had.
Especially the church. They should know better, but their fruit is poison.

Matthew 23:23-28
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It’s a shame most Americans don’t have the same faith our founders had.
Especially the church. They should know better, but their fruit is poison.
But we do know better, which is why our fruit is so sweet. :D

Founders who remained practicing Christians. They retained a supernaturalist world view, a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and an adherence to the teachings of their denomination. These founders included
Patrick Henry,
John Jay,
Samuel Adams
Founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition.
John Adams
George Washington
Benjamin Franklin
James Monroe
Founders who had left their Judeo-Christian heritages and become advocates of the Enlightenment religion of nature and reason called "Deism". These figures included
Thomas Paine
Ethan Allen​
Source: Wikipedia


.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member

The other side -- the things that people don't know such as Jeffersons "other Bible" and Washington Deism.
Indeed: things were pretty oppressive if you were a Christian that didn't belong to the denomination with power.

When the United States was founded, you had Protestant places barring Catholics from voting and vice versa. A bit later than that, you even had the extermination order against the Mormons.

Luckily, your country eventually came to its senses and realized that the best way to promote religion was to keep government secular. They realized that when you give one denomination the reins of power, they tend to use that power to persecute people who don't believe as they do... mostly Christians of competing denominations.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member

The other side -- the things that people don't know such as Jeffersons "other Bible" and Washington Deism.

David and Tim Barton? Really, Ken? All I can say to anyone reading this who hasn't drank the Barton's Kool-aid yet, Ken, is "buyer beware!"

David and Tim Barton are New Apostolic Reformation Movement propagandists, not historians, and even legitimate Christian historians say the Bartons are not intellectually honest.

[David] Barton’s work has been used by Eric Metaxas and is reportedly consulted by Speaker of the House Paul Ryan. Not only is he reaching millions with false stories, he trashes legitimate historical work done by actual historians, including many Christians. His defamation of academic historians has caused widespread confusion (read
the comments) about who people can trust to tell them the truth about American history.
[Source]

Without question, David Barton is the leading history teacher among those who long to hear stories about the Christian founding of America.... As believers, we all rejoice to hear about those who stood strong in the faith, especially in the face of difficult trials. But does this apply to the Founding Fathers of the American Revolution? Were they Bible believing Christian men fighting to establish a Christian nation? According to teachers like David Barton, the answer is yes. But as we show in the film, The Hidden Faith of the Founding Fathers, much of Barton’s historical information is quoted out of its full context. He gives the false impression that the revolutionaries supported Christianity, when in truth they rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and were even hostile to its precepts.
[Source: "Dave Barton: Historian or Revisionist?"]

A number of highly regarded conservative evangelicals and Catholics jumped on the bandwagon and began criticizing his misuse of information. Jay W. Richards of the Discovery Institute was one such critic. Richards, a Catholic, was so troubled by some of Barton’s writings that he invited a group of politically conservative evangelicals and Catholic historians to take part in an evaluation. Dr. Gregg Frazer of the Masters College in Santa Clarita, CA agreed to participate. Frazer, a conservative evangelical, authored The Religious Beliefs of the American Founders: Reason, Religion, and Revolution. In his book he states his belief that America’s Founders were neither deists nor Christians, they were something in-between. The term he uses is “theistic rationalist.”
[Source: Christian Research Network linked article]
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
By the way, to answer the OP: In my opinion Christian historian Dr. Gregg Frazer's notion that at least many of the the American Founders (such as Washington) were neither Christians nor deists, but rather, somewhere in between ("theistic rationalists" as he says) sounds about right to me. Although I do think the evidence supports the notion that some of the key Founders were basically deists (albeit perhaps deists with some, but not necessarily all, Christian values) -- Franklin, for instance.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I didn’t watch the whole thing. It’s an hour long, and there would be too much to cover anyway. What really stopped me though was that the very premise of the video is wrong. Hidden history? History historians don’t want you to know or are erasing? It’s simply not happening. The fact that their guest has a history book, which I’d assume is filled with hidden history, proves the notion wrong.

American history has been revised. That’s because all history is revised as we learn more and find better sources. That’s really it. What this video does is ignore that basic fact and instead submits a conspiracy theory.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I didn’t watch the whole thing. It’s an hour long, and there would be too much to cover anyway. What really stopped me though was that the very premise of the video is wrong. Hidden history? History historians don’t want you to know or are erasing? It’s simply not happening. The fact that their guest has a history book, which I’d assume is filled with hidden history, proves the notion wrong.

American history has been revised. That’s because all history is revised as we learn more and find better sources. That’s really it. What this video does is ignore that basic fact and instead submits a conspiracy theory.

Well said, and refreshingly true.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Care to provide some examples?
The famous "Jefferson's Bible" where he cut out portions and is promoted as "He didn't like the Bible". Fake news.

1) He actually had two that were cut up for different reasons
2) The one people quote, he had cut out those scriptures because of:

On suggestion of a Scotland preacher who said "If you are going to reach the Indians, don't give them a Bible because they are going to read Leviticus etc". So what he did is cut out the portions of Jesus (like a red letter edition) and pasted them on another book to give it to a missionary so that he could use the teachings of Jesus to the Indians.

The second cut up one was to make of compilations of morals for people to make government smaller by their changed lifestyles. (we could learn from that)
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It’s a shame most Americans don’t have the same faith our founders had.
Especially the church. They should know better, but their fruit is poison.

Matthew 23:23-28
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Well the evangelical movement didn't start with a theology course of proper theology and a clear concise understanding of much at all. It was a pentacostal moment called the great awakenings. Its not really understood, and any anyone who wants to delusionally project their personal confirmation bias onto that is to be avoided at all costs both, Inside the faith and outside the faith.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Indeed: things were pretty oppressive if you were a Christian that didn't belong to the denomination with power.

When the United States was founded, you had Protestant places barring Catholics from voting and vice versa. A bit later than that, you even had the extermination order against the Mormons.

Luckily, your country eventually came to its senses and realized that the best way to promote religion was to keep government secular. They realized that when you give one denomination the reins of power, they tend to use that power to persecute people who don't believe as they do... mostly Christians of competing denominations.
Strawman.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
David and Tim Barton? Really, Ken? All I can say to anyone reading this who hasn't drank the Barton's Kool-aid yet, Ken, is "buyer beware!"
\]
Nice try. If you can't fight the facts, destroy the vehicle that is bringing the info. This is so common now that it has no effects.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Strawman.
Not at all. Secularism is the best way to protect religious freedom and the American Founding Fathers knew it: protect Catholic freedom of religion by making sure Protestants couldn't use the government to persecute them. Protect Protestant freedom of religion by making sure Catholics can't use the government to persecute them.

In a secular state, every religious group is free to worship as they see fit. In a theocracy, only one denomination flourishes and all the others are oppressed. The best givernment for healthy religion overall is secular government.
 
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