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Global Harmony is Inevitable

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I made the original argument. Therefore, it's impossible for me to create a strawman which is a distortion of the original argument.
You are correct in the terminology. However, it is still a logical fallacy to present the idea that any such thing is "inevitable." Few things, especially when dealing with the collective of humanity, can be spoken of in certainties.
If you want to make a counter-argument, you need to explain why it doesn't seem probable. Otherwise, your claim in unsupported.
I have been, and rather than addressing them you dismiss them as cherry picking and redefining terms.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
To get us to unity we need religion, specifically the Baha'i Faith.
Ah, it was only a matter of time before this cropped up. And herein lies the problem; you get one group who comes along with "the answer" (surprise surprise, an Abrahamic group), and their way is the one true way that will lead the world to peace and prosperity.

Problem being, all those who disagree. Specifically, all those who disagree who you Baha'ii don't and wouldn't recognize as valid religions/cultures/"Baha'i citizens". The forums have been over this issue before.

When one nation (any nation) can't have harmony of their own citizens, what makes you or anyone think that 7 billion people will suddenly "see the light"? Not even under one Roman Empire did the world see harmony.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure you actually realise the implications of your argument of the inevitability of harmony.
I've not seen an indication that you understood the argument. You've offered one distortion of it after another.
So if there was a nuclear war, do you consider that global harmony would still be still inevitable?
yes. I don't think human nature would be changed in any way.
Are you confident that 50 million people would not be forcefully kept out? Do you consider it impossible that such an event could lead to extremist governments gaining power in the West?
If I had claimed that humanity's moral progress could be graphed as a straight line upward, your hypotheticals might be relevant, I'm not sure. But I didn't make that claim.

My claim is that, long term, our species is making moral progress and I don't see any hypothetical event that you might create that will change our basic nature.

You keep saying people redefine things. When someone uses backslide to mean backslide you somehow consider it mendacious.
"Backslide" refers to a slide back from an achieved level. Does that help?

Pinker's use of stats is terribly flawed as I explained in another thread. The 'declining trend of violence' would also be statistically reversed in a nuclear war.
The issue is the level of violence in human nature. Please explain how advanced weapons changes that level. Is a man with a bow and arrow morally better than one with an automatic rifle?

But even if he is 100% correct, he doesn't make your argument. He simply believes it is probable there will be a trend towards reduced violence and increased cooperation. He doesn't predict 'global harmony' and he doesn't consider it 'inevitable'.
Will you quote me, please? Where did I claim that Pinker supported my entire argument?
 
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Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Religion has long been a potent social corrosive agent and has been terribly divisive. We don't need it.

There are only a googol of other things that divide us. But hey who needs facts in a fantastical world created by secularist.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Religion has long been a potent social corrosive agent and has been terribly divisive. We don't need it.
What we need is religion that is not divisive but promotes harmony between religions and also promotes less selfishness between various groups of the world. There is no trend to true unity, we are dividing within our nations into divisive groups. There is less war between nations because the technology today makes war too horrible.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Ah, it was only a matter of time before this cropped up. And herein lies the problem; you get one group who comes along with "the answer" (surprise surprise, an Abrahamic group), and their way is the one true way that will lead the world to peace and prosperity.

Problem being, all those who disagree. Specifically, all those who disagree who you Baha'ii don't and wouldn't recognize as valid religions/cultures/"Baha'i citizens". The forums have been over this issue before.

When one nation (any nation) can't have harmony of their own citizens, what makes you or anyone think that 7 billion people will suddenly "see the light"? Not even under one Roman Empire did the world see harmony.
What the Baha'i Faith teaches will bring us unity and harmony. Otherwise the world won't. Man will try everything except the Baha'i Faith and find that it doesn't work. In the end, the world will turn to Baha'u'llah's teachings.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
We may argue with other religions more than we should, but we will never divide the world over religion.
Yes you do. It's been covered with other baha'i on this very topic; there are religions and cultures that your group doesn't consider "valid", and who would not be included in baha'i citizenship. You can't truthfully claim "unity and harmony" when you exclude people.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Yes you do. It's been covered with other baha'i on this very topic; there are religions and cultures that your group doesn't consider "valid", and who would not be included in baha'i citizenship. You can't truthfully claim "unity and harmony" when you exclude people.
We would not exclude anyone, even religions not started by a Manifestation of God. All cultures are valid. We are not the people of Islam.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
There are only a googol of other things that divide us. But hey who needs facts in a fantastical world created by secularist.
True, but religion is very high on the list, sharing a platform with nationalism/tribalism.
And, yes, I am all for a unified global government, among other reasons being it would be one less thing to fight about if we were all just humans and residents of unified Earth rather than hundreds of countries who fight amoungst themselves.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
You are correct in the terminology. However, it is still a logical fallacy to present the idea that any such thing is "inevitable." Few things, especially when dealing with the collective of humanity, can be spoken of in certainties.
The unforeseeable that I allowed for renders it uncertain.

I have been, and rather than addressing them you dismiss them as cherry picking and redefining terms.
I resorted to that only because you were cherry picking and redefining terms.:D
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
True, but religion is very high on the list, sharing a platform with nationalism/tribalism.
And, yes, I am all for a unified global government, among other reasons being it would be one less thing to fight about if we were all just humans and residents of unified Earth rather than hundreds of countries who fight amoungst themselves.

Considering greed is the biggest problem, of which there is no solution, it's just an excercise in futility. But you can dream!
 
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