Does Original Islam teach Mahdi and return of Christ?

[InvestigateTruth]

Does original Islam teach the Idea of Qaim (Mahdi) and return of Christ or these ideas were added later.

Did Prophet Muhammad and Quran originally taught about Mahdi and return of Christ, or the Hadithes and Traditions of Mahdi and Christ were fabricated by others?

 

[wizanda]

Does original Islam teach the Idea of Qaim (Mahdi) and return of Christ or these ideas were added later.

Have been wanting to join in the conversation in the Dir to post this... Yet it would cause debate so didn't.

5:119. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

120. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things."

121. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servants: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

122. Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: Theirs are the Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath, --their eternal home": Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great Salvation, (the fulfillment of all desires).

This therefore says that all the Messengers shall be brought back just before the time of Judgement.

39:69 And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record [of deeds] will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged.

43:60-61 And if We please, We could make among you angels to be successors in the land. And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.

This is often translated to add the word Isa, it doesn't have it in the Arabic; yet it has been assumed it is only Isa that comes back.

Did Prophet Muhammad and Quran originally taught about Mahdi and return of Christ, or the Hadithes and Traditions of Mahdi and Christ were fabricated by others?

• So the Quran does teach about the return before Judgement day; thus not as expected from the Hadiths, that we will have world peace first.
• There is no Imam Mahdi in the Quran, only the Hadiths.
• Isa doesn't fight the Dajjal in the Quran, only the Hadiths.
• Etc...

Just to be clear, some of the Hadiths about the Dajjal have a context that does fit with the prophets; thus nothing should be ignored, it is just some of the additional prophetic ideas don't fit.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Have been wanting to join in the conversation in the Dir to post this... Yet it would cause debate so didn't.

5:119. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

120. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things."

121. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servants: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

122. Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: Theirs are the Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath, --their eternal home": Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great Salvation, (the fulfillment of all desires).

This therefore says that all the Messengers shall be brought back just before the time of Judgement.

39:69 And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record [of deeds] will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged.

43:60-61 And if We please, We could make among you angels to be successors in the land. And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.

This is often translated to add the word Isa, it doesn't have it in the Arabic; yet it has been assumed it is only Isa that comes back.

• So the Quran does teach about the return before Judgement day; thus not as expected from the Hadiths, that we will have world peace first.
• There is no Imam Mahdi in the Quran, only the Hadiths.
• Isa doesn't fight the Dajjal in the Quran, only the Hadiths.
• Etc...

Just to be clear, some of the Hadiths about the Dajjal have a context that does fit with the prophets; thus nothing should be ignored, it is just some of the additional prophetic ideas don't fit.

In my opinion.

One thing I first add is that the Imam Qaim (Mahdi) is in Quran, in many of the verses , specifically in the following:

On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71

In book Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the day when We will call every nation with their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is al-Qa’im of the people of that time."


With regards to this verse, it is recorded In a tradition from Prophet Muhammad, that He said, “He shall call all people to the Imam of their age with Book of God, and tradition of their prophet”

Source:

رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) - في قوله تعالى: * (يوم ندعو كل اناس بإمامهم) * -: يدعى كل قوم بإمام زمانهم وكتاب الله وسنة نبيهم

ميزان الحكمة - محمدي الريشهري - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت


Thus this verse is talking about one Imam, who will come with Book of God, and He is the Qaim.
Many of the Translators, have translated the word 'Imam' in this verse, to something else, thus they omitted the Imam in this verse, where obviously according to Traditions, Prophet Muhammad and Imam Sadiq have said, He is the Imam of a future time.

 

[sun rise]

I'm not by any means an Islamic scholar, but there are some who say that Jesus' return is in the Quran Jesus Will Return - IslamiCity

And Wikipedia has an extensive discussion of the Mahdi Mahdi - Wikipedia which also does note that there is no concept of the Mahdi in the Quran.

 

[wizanda]

17:71

Context is everything; tho there are quite a few translations that include 'Leaders/Imams':

Surah Al-Isra [17:71]

The overall context surrounding that verse is on about individual salvation, through good action; thus can't see the word leader there or understand why people have.

there are some who say that Jesus' return is in the Quran Jesus Will Return - IslamiCity

The problem with their argument, is it is heavily based on this verse; which also doesn't have the word 'Jesus/Isa' ascribed by scholars to it.

Surah Az-Zukhruf [43:60-61]

Context is everything, and they miss that it is saying the angels shall come to earth, before the day of the Lord.

In my opinion.

 

[Godobeyer]

Salam brother ,God in Quran did not said that Jesus(pbuh)return ,word by word.

So that obvisouly an addition event insert by name "interpretations".

I update my understanding about return of Jesus ...etc, because I discovered that all hadithes about Anti-Christ and Jesus(pbuh) and Gog and Magog are not credibal,they are just copy/paste from Bible.

There is no Mahdi will come, that's inserted by some scholars,had no credibal hadith or clear meaning verse in Quran.

 

[wizanda]

Salam brother ,God in Quran did not said that Jesus(pbuh)return ,word by word.

Messaged you, and then posted in this thread more info showing where that is flawed...

I agree with much of what you're saying that there are too many fake hadiths, which muddy the waters.

If you read this thread, i've already explained where the Quran does say Yeshua, and All Messengers come before the day of Judgement.

In my opinion.

 

[Godobeyer]

Have been wanting to join in the conversation in the Dir to post this... Yet it would cause debate so didn't.

5:119. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

120. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things."

121. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servants: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

122. Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: Theirs are the Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath, --their eternal home": Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great Salvation, (the fulfillment of all desires).

This therefore says that all the Messengers shall be brought back just before the time of Judgement.

39:69 And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record [of deeds] will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged.

43:60-61 And if We please, We could make among you angels to be successors in the land. And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.

This is often translated to add the word Isa, it doesn't have it in the Arabic; yet it has been assumed it is only Isa that comes back.

• So the Quran does teach about the return before Judgement day; thus not as expected from the Hadiths, that we will have world peace first.
• There is no Imam Mahdi in the Quran, only the Hadiths.
• Isa doesn't fight the Dajjal in the Quran, only the Hadiths.
• Etc...

Just to be clear, some of the Hadiths about the Dajjal have a context that does fit with the prophets; thus nothing should be ignored, it is just some of the additional prophetic ideas don't fit.

In my opinion.

Really !!!

There is no verse in Quran said,Jesus(pbuh) will return.

The coming of Anti-Chrit(Dajjal) and return of Jesus are came from Bible,so they are not credibal Hadithes.

 

[Godobeyer]

Messaged you, and then posted in this thread more info showing where that is flawed...

I agree with much of what you're saying that there are too many fake hadiths, which muddy the waters.

If you read this thread, i've already explained where the Quran does say Yeshua, and All Messengers come before the day of Judgement.

In my opinion.

I cheched the verses you post , there is no verse in Quran said Jesus(pbuh) will return, all verses said is dead.

 

[wizanda]

There is no verse in Quran said,Jesus(pbuh) will return.

Where is your proof please?

The first verses 5:119-122 state it is at the time before the Judgement, and Yeshua is speaking...

Then in verse 39:69 all the prophets are brought back to give an account before the Day of Judgement.

all verses said is dead.

Sorry what is death when we're talking about God? What do the verses specifically state? He was raised up.

3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

4:157-158 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. No indeed, Allah raised him up to Him; and Allah has been Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise.

In my opinion.

 

[Godobeyer]

Where is your proof please?

The first verses 5:119-122 state it is at the time before the Judgement, and Yeshua is speaking...

My proof!!!

it's you who suppose to proof to me that Quran said Jesus(pbuh) will return.

These are the verse you post,where is,which sentence ?
Surah Al-Ma'idah [5:119]
Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is within them. And He is over all things competent.

Then in verse 39:69 all the prophets are brought back to give an account before the Day of Judgement.

There is no before, this verse is talking about Day of Judgment.

Sorry what is death when we're talking about God? What do the verses specifically state? He was raised up.

Jesus(pbuh) is not God.
He is messenger of God.

3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

There is no return here.
This verse is talking about Judgement Day.

4:157-158 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. No indeed, Allah raised him up to Him; and Allah has been Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise.

In my opinion.

Raised (saved him) is not proof of return. OK ?

This verse is not proof
Why you did not continous to 159 ?verse ?

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

 

[Godobeyer]

@wizanda

Surah Maryam [19:33]
Jesus(pbuh) speaking about him self:
"And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

There is no "day I will return"


Surah Ali 'Imran [3:55]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

There is error in translation,in Italic sentence,it's "I will cause you die"or "I will make you die" in Arabic متوفيك

 

[Augustus]

Salam brother ,God in Quran did not said that Jesus(pbuh)return ,word by word.

So that obvisouly an addition event insert by name "interpretations".

I update my understanding about return of Jesus ...etc, because I discovered that all hadithes about Anti-Christ and Jesus(pbuh) and Gog and Magog are not credibal,they are just copy/paste from Bible.

There is no Mahdi will come, that's inserted by some scholars,had no credibal hadith or clear meaning verse in Quran.

Hi Godobeyer, some of the translations of 17:71 say imam/leader and others say record. The translation I usually use (Arberry) tends to try to stay closer to the Arabic, rather than using outside sources to provide an exegetical translation and this uses record, as does the literal translation.

What is the word used in Arabic?


17:71 On the day when We shall call all men with their record, and whoso is given his book in his right hand -- those shall read their book, and they shall not be wronged a single date-thread.

Thanks

 

[wizanda]

it's you who suppose to proof to me that Quran said Jesus(pbuh) will return.

39:69 And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record [of deeds] will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged.

 

[Godobeyer]

39:69 And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record [of deeds] will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged.

This verse is talking about Judgement day

Next verses is completed the meaning :

Surah Az-Zumar [39:69-75]
And every soul will be fully compensated [for] what it did; and He is most knowing of what they do.

And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say, "Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "Yes, but the word of punishment has come into effect upon the disbelieve

 

[Godobeyer]

Hi Godobeyer, some of the translations of 17:71 say imam/leader and others say record. The translation I usually use (Arberry) tends to try to stay closer to the Arabic, rather than using outside sources to provide an exegetical translation and this uses record, as does the literal translation.

What is the word used in Arabic?


17:71 On the day when We shall call all men with their record, and whoso is given his book in his right hand -- those shall read their book, and they shall not be wronged a single date-thread.

Thanks

You are welcome

There is two tafsir(explaination) about that word .

That verse is talking about Judgement Day, it's Imam means leader with mean Prophet or messenger,or president ..;etc

So God will call every leaders of all nations

Second with their books/records.

But closes one to me is their leaders.(imam), this is commun.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are welcome

There is two tafsir(explaination) about that word .

That verse is talking about Judgement Day, it's Imam means leader with mean Prophet or messenger,or president ..;etc

So God will call every leaders of all nations

Second with their books/records.

But closes one to me is their leaders.(imam), this is commun.

In my post number 3, I have shown that Imam Sadiq and Prophet Muhammad interpreted this verse is about the Imam Qaim. I go with Their Tafseer, becasue, in Islam no body can claim they know Quran better than Muhammad and Imam Sadiq, These are the Well-Grounded in knowledge who God had given to ma kind to correctly explain Quran.
Also, the verse does not talk about leaderS. It is a singular word 'Imam', which means One Imam, not more.

 

[wizanda]

This verse is talking about Judgement day

Yes been saying Yeshua returns right before Judgement day, as he gives his account before everyone is judged for not following what he taught.

In my opinion.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes been saying Yeshua returns right before Judgement day, as he gives his account before everyone is judged for not following what he taught.

In my opinion.

No,That verse,it's never said Jesus(pbuh) will return,you just had addition understanding .

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Godobeyer

According to these Traditions, not everyoner is well-grounded in knowledge of interpretation. Only Prophet Muhammad, and Imam Ali, and His sons:


Muhammad ibn abu ‘Abdallah and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan have narrated from Sahl ibn
Ziyad and Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad, both of them
from al-Hassan ibn al-‘Abbas ibn al-Harish from abu Ja‘far al-Thani (a.s.) who has said the
following. "Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said.....

If they would ask, "Who are the ones well-grounded in knowledge?" Say, "They are those in
whose knowledge there is no disharmony." If they would ask, "Who is he?" Say, "the Messenger of Allah was such a person. Did he convey such knowledge to the first one (Khalifa)?" If they say, "Yes, the Messenger of Allah did convey." Ask, "Did the Messenger of Allah die and the Khalifa after him had the knowledge free of disharmony ?" If they would say, "No, there was no such Khalifa with the knowledge free of disharmony." Say, "(This is not logical.) The successor of the Messenger of Allah is supported (has the Divine support) and the Messenger of Allah does not appoint a Khalifa who would not judge by the laws of Allah. The Messenger of Allah will not appoint a Khalifa except one who is just like him, excluding prophet-hood. If the Messenger of Allah did not appoint a Khalifa in his knowledge
anyone, he ( Allah forbid) caused to go astray the people of coming generations."

Source: Bihara al anwar Volume 51-53, part 2.

It is narrated from him from Muhammad ibn Ali from ibn Mahbub from ‘Abd al-‘Aziz al-‘Abdi from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following about the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. "In fact, the Quran consists of illustrious verses that exist in the hearts of those who have knowledge. . . ." (29:49) ‘They are the Imams (a.s.)’.


A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘idfrom an-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Ayyub ibn Hurr and ‘Imran ibn Ali from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "We are the people well-grounded in knowledge and we are the ones who know how to interpret it."

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from ‘Abdallah ibn Ali from Ibrahim ibn Ishaq from‘ Adallah ibn Hammad from Burayd ibn Mu‘awiya who has narrated the following from either one of the Imams (a.s.) about the words of Allah, Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious. "No one knows its true interpretations except God and those who have a firm grounding in knowledge . . ." (3:7). The Holy Prophet is the best among the people well-grounded in knowledge. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, taught him all that He had revealed to him in the form of original text and in the form of interpretations. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, would not reveal anything to him that he would not know the meaning thereof. The successors of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) after him knew all revelations.
As for those who do not know the interpretations thereof, when the scholar speaks to them with knowledge, they say, "We believe in it, for all of this is from our Lord." The Holy Quran consists of specific, general, clear, not so clear, abrogating and abrogated statements. The people who are well-grounded in knowledge know all of the Holy Quran."

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from MuAlia ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn’Uwarma from Ali ibn Hassan from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Kathir from abu ‘bdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "People well-grounded in Knowledge stands for Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) and the Imams after him."

Source: Al-Kafi, volume 1


So, whatever interpretations the Well-grounded in knowledge gave, that is the correct view, according to Traditions, and Quran verse 3:7.