Psalm 22 is about David, not Jesus?

[Buddha Dharma]

Ezekiel 37:24, 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd:'

Seemingly, David himself? The Karaites certainly believe that. It's called the king messiah concept. Judaism is the only of the monotheistic religions that ever interested me enough to study it in any detail. It has such a vast and developed intellectual tradition.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Jeremiah 30:9 Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.

Hosea 3:5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

Is it impossible to infer this is David himself? I mean after all, if your god is capable of resurrection- what difference would it make?

 

[Rival]

What about Daniel 9:19?

Daniel 9:19 uses YHWH.

 

[74x12]

He is? David needed Nathan as a second opinion then, eh? Jews don't consider David's works prophecy- of that I'm certain. David being a prophet was a exclusively Islamic view, I thought.

Some Jews certainly did consider David a prophet. Nehemiah 12:24 and 12:36 both call David the "man of God". This term as far as I know is only used in the Tanakh for a prophet as it is used in 1 Kings 13:1-2.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Rival, what I am trying to open your eyes to is HUGE! It will light fires across Israel.

You agree that the one shepherd of Israel must be God - the LORD.

Ezekiel 34:23,24 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.'

The Messiah must be God. 'My servant David' means He was also MAN. So the Messiah bears the qualities of both MAN and GOD.

This has nothing to do with king David. David's body lies in a tomb in Jerusalem!

But for ISRAEL the consequences are significant. The Lord returns as GOD to JUDGE. He will NOT be born on Earth again. To seek for the Messiah, and to claim a Messiah who is earth-born, will be a distraction, and lead to false messianic claims.

When the Messiah returns, he will return from heaven to earth.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Some Jews certainly did consider David a prophet. Nehemiah 12:24 and 12:36 both call David the "man of God". This term as far as I know is only used in the Tanakh for a prophet as it is used in 1 Kings 13:1-2.

I'm not aware that David was considered a prophet by Jews. His writings are classified in the Hebrew Bible as just that- writings. Do you think Christians would have a theological motivation for reworking David into a prophet?

 

[Buddha Dharma]

The Messiah must be God.

Right, so Cyrus was God. He is called a messiah in Hebrew. That means the real religion of God for the modern age is...Zoroastrianism

 

[wizanda]

Is it impossible to infer this is David himself?

Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, Revelation 5:5, etc.

The majority say David himself; yet the interlinking prophecies imply Yeshua was the flesh of David, and that the spirit of the Lord was within him (Immanuel = God is with us).

In Matthew 3:17, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22 the Most High spoke down, 'my beloved', which in Hebrew can be דודי H1730 & David is דוד H1732.

I mean after all, if your god is capable of resurrection- what difference would it make?

Judaism believes in reincarnation (Gilgul); as did Christianity until 553 AD.

Do you think Christians would have a theological motivation for reworking David into a prophet?

David prophesied in multiple places that link across the book; as the prophets then use it as a foundation to quote from.

In my opinion.

 

[Rival]

Rival, what I am trying to open your eyes to is HUGE! It will light fires across Israel.

Please leave the Jews and Noahides alone. We do not, and never will, believe in your avodah zarah.

You agree that the one shepherd of Israel must be God - the LORD.

Yes and no. This term is used in several ways. David and other kings are called 'shepherds'; just as the people of a church are called a 'flock', this makes the Vicar the shepherd - which still doesn't make him a god. G-d will shepherd his people Israel, but he will also set up mortal kings to shepherd them as He also set up judges to shepherd them by interpreting the Law.

Ezekiel 34:23,24 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.'

I've already told you what this means. Even just reading the passage makes this obvious. In the first line David is referred to as the shepherd (the king); in the second, HaShem says He will be their G-d and, David, the shepherd, his servant. This passage is very clear that the king is the shepherd in this instance, acting as G-d's servant on earth to help unite His people and to shepherd them.

The Messiah must be God. 'My servant David' means He was also MAN. So the Messiah bears the qualities of both MAN and GOD.

It means the moshiach will be a man of the seed of David.

Numbers 23:19:
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

This has nothing to do with king David. David's body lies in a tomb in Jerusalem!

Right. It has to do with his offspring.

But for ISRAEL the consequences are significant. The Lord returns as GOD to JUDGE. He will NOT be born on Earth again. To seek for the Messiah, and to claim a Messiah who is earth-born, will be a distraction, and lead to false messianic claims.

HaShem has never, heaven forbid, been born on earth, as the above quote from Numbers states.

When the Messiah returns, he will return from heaven to earth.

No, he will be born and die.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes and no. This term is used in several ways. David and other kings are called 'shepherds'; just as the people of a church are called a 'flock', this makes the Vicar the shepherd - which still doesn't make him a god. G-d will shepherd his people Israel, but he will also set up mortal kings to shepherd them as He also set up judges to shepherd them by interpreting the Law.

Rival, I fully appreciate what you are saying about shepherds, but you're side-stepping the precise wording of the passages in question.
Ezekiel 34:23,24 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
Again, just to reinforce the point, we have Ezekiel 37:24 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd:'

There are numerous passages where the reference is to shepherds! In Ezekiel 34:10 the Lord says, 'I am against the shepherds'.

So, explain to me the meaning of 'one shepherd'. Why is 'my servant David' described as the ONE SHEPHERD?
How do you know that Psalm 23 is not referring to the Messiah as LORD? It's quite clear that he is to be the shepherd of Israel.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It means the moshiach will be a man of the seed of David.

True. He must be of the line of David to be the Messiah. But, tell me, is the Messiah the Saviour of Israel?

 

[Rival]

Rival, I fully appreciate what you are saying about shepherds, but you're side-stepping the precise wording of the passages in question.
Ezekiel 34:23,24 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
Again, just to reinforce the point, we have Ezekiel 37:24 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd:'

There are numerous passages where the reference is to shepherds! In Ezekiel 34:10 the Lord says, 'I am against the shepherds'.

So, explain to me the meaning of 'one shepherd'. Why is 'my servant David' described as the ONE SHEPHERD?
How do you know that Psalm 23 is not referring to the Messiah as LORD? It's quite clear that he is to be the shepherd of Israel.

One shepherd is significant because for a long time the tribes were divided into Judah and Israel and had two kings. G-d here is saying the tribes will be united under one king. Reading the previous verses acknowledges this as it is talking about the tribes returning from exile and being united again.

 

[Rival]

True. He must be of the line of David to be the Messiah. But, tell me, is the Messiah the Saviour of Israel?

Not just Israel. When moshiach comes we are told no-one will need to tell his neighbour about G-d because everyone (the world) will know that G-d is, and that the moshiach has come.

Jeremiah 31:34:
And no longer shall each one teach his neighbour and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[Redemptionsong]

Isaiah 43:11, 'l, even l, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.'

Rival, you appear to be saying that the Messiah you believe in is one shepherd amongst many.
The Messiah you await is one saviour amongst many.
The Messiah you believe in is a man only.
Psalm14: 2,3: 'The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.'
How can a man-Messiah be anything less than filthy? How can a man-Messiah do what is good?
Surely, a Messiah must be able to mediate between God and man? Is your Messiah not firmly rooted in the earth?

 

[Rival]

Isaiah 43:11, 'l, even l, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.'

Rival, you appear to be saying that the Messiah you believe in is one shepherd amongst many.
The Messiah you await is one saviour amongst many.
The Messiah you believe in is a man only.
Psalm14: 2,3: 'The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.'
How can a man-Messiah be anything less than filthy? How can a man-Messiah do what is good?
Surely, a Messiah must be able to mediate between God and man? Is your Messiah not firmly rooted in the earth?

The moshiach is the person who will gather all Israel back into Eretz Israel; unite all under his kingship, as well as his being a prophet and teacher. He is a mortal as any other and will bring offerings to the Temple of which he has overseen the building.

Chabad puts it nicely

5. In that era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor strife, because good will emanate in abundance and all delightful things will be accessible as dust. The one preoccupation of the entire world will be solely to know G‑d. The Israelites, therefore, will be great sages and know the hidden matters, and they will attain knowledge of their Creator to the extent of human capacity, as it is said: “The earth shall be full with the knowledge of G‑d as the waters cover the sea!”

Sorta diminishes the sin problem a bit.

 

[74x12]

I'm not aware that David was considered a prophet by Jews. His writings are classified in the Hebrew Bible as just that- writings. Do you think Christians would have a theological motivation for reworking David into a prophet?

That is all inconsequential. I have proof that David is considered a man of God(prophet) by the book of Nehemiah.

In fact if you read what Elijah said, you see that a man of God is indeed a prophet.

And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.​

2 Chronicles 8:14 also calls David a "man of God". So it's not just the book of Nehemiah.

And he appointed, according to the order of David his father, the courses of the priests to their service, and the Levites to their charges, to praise and minister before the priests, as the duty of every day required: the porters also by their courses at every gate: for so had David the man of God commanded.
​

Here is a link to all the times the term "man of God" is used. Show me where it's not at least about someone they thought was a prophet? There is one story when they called someone a man of God who was in fact an angel in disguise. However they believed he was a prophet when they called him "man of God" because he predicted they would have a son; Samson.

BibleGateway.com -​

 

[Buddha Dharma]

And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

2 Chronicles 8:14 also calls David a "man of God". So it's not just the book of Nehemiah.
And he appointed, according to the order of David his father, the courses of the priests to their service, and the Levites to their charges, to praise and minister before the priests, as the duty of every day required: the porters also by their courses at every gate: for so had David the man of God commanded.

I don't see in these verses that 'man of God' necessarily implies prophet. Kings were anointed also, right?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Rival, do you, therefore, expect the Messiah to be born and die on earth, as other men?

 

[Rival]

Rival, do you, therefore, expect the Messiah to be born and die on earth, as other men?

Yes.

You seen unfamiliar with the Jewish belief about moshiach.

What Is the Jewish Belief About Moshiach (Messiah)?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sorta diminishes the sin problem a bit.

Does the coming era of peace and knowledge really diminish the sin problem?

If anything, it should provide an added incentive to discover the solution to sin. Sin exists, and in the future will exist no more. So what happens in between to rid this world of sin?