On American Jews and Israel

[Jayhawker Soule]

There's an interesting article in the Forward:

Young Jews Are Actually Winning The Generational War Over Israel​

Bottom line?

"But the days when American Jews will support Israel in spite of illiberal policies are coming to an end. Other data strongly suggests that that when American Jews perceive a tension between Israel and leading an ethical life, they will choose their ethics." [ibid]​

Meanwhile:

On February 14, 2018, Israel Police announced that there was sufficient evidence indicating Netanyahu took bribes in two separate cases and acted "against public interests." [source]
​

We live in interesting times.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Very interesting article...I like the percentage of having good humor among U.S. Jews compared to those living in Israel. I wonder, is the progressive-liberal feelings many U.S. Jews have, somehow relate to the intersectionality of multiculturalism and equality the influence? Very good piece anyway by Ms. Sargon.....The comments were also interesting to say the least.

 

[tytlyf]

Netty has always been corrupt. When someone works so close with the MIC and republicans, something is off.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ethics should trump identity.

 

[Nakosis]

There's an interesting article in the Forward:

Young Jews Are Actually Winning The Generational War Over Israel​

Bottom line?

"But the days when American Jews will support Israel in spite of illiberal policies are coming to an end. Other data strongly suggests that that when American Jews perceive a tension between Israel and leading an ethical life, they will choose their ethics." [ibid]​

Meanwhile:

On February 14, 2018, Israel Police announced that there was sufficient evidence indicating Netanyahu took bribes in two separate cases and acted "against public interests." [source]
​

We live in interesting times.

I don't know why they should identify with Israel any more than I should identify with Scandinavia or why I should identify with Arkansas. Sure I can trace my lineage back through these places but those were different folks from different times. The policies and corruption of the state of Arkansas don't have anything to do with me.

If folks want to go to Israel and become Israeli, that's a different story. Not that I put much stock into ethnic identity, but I think being Jewish does not require the existence of the state of Israel or even supporting it's existence.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't know why they should identify with Israel any more than I should identify with Scandinavia or why I should identify with Arkansas.

That's unfortunate.

 

[Nakosis]

That's unfortunate.

Why? Do you feel they lose something?

I see Israel as a new state, a new creation. Unless one has a direct connection to it, it's not really part of anyone's heritage. It didn't exist prior to 1948.

I'm not a big fan of American Patriotism either. I guess I don't see what benefit a cultural identity provides that I can't achieve through some other means and likely serves only to cause more division among folks.

 

[YmirGF]

I guess where the rubber hits the road is if these younger American Jews maintain their ideas over a long period of time. I wouldn't bet the farm that they do.

In regards to Bibi:

Any charge recommendations will be passed on to the Attorney General who was appointed by Netanyahu. They could die on his desk.

 

[sun rise]

I strongly identify with the young Jew demographic having had those values for a long time.

As Israel has drifted rightward and acted like an occupying power, my support for Israel decreased from absolute during the 6 days war to very tenuous today.

My youth was full of Jewish comics so that's one point of identification. And intellectually curious is another very strong one as is leading an ethical/moral life.

And boy do I tend to react when something relates to the Holocaust especially the mouthings and terrorism of the bigots. That for me has generalized to anything that smells of bigotry toward any group triggering strong feelings.

 

[Akivah]

Why? Do you feel they lose something?

I see Israel as a new state, a new creation. Unless one has a direct connection to it, it's not really part of anyone's heritage. It didn't exist prior to 1948.

It existed as a country two thousand years ago. Jews have lived continuously in that part of the world for thousands of years. Plus it is extensively referred to in our bible. Israel is completely part of our heritage.

 

[Nakosis]

It existed as a country two thousand years ago. Jews have lived continuously in that part of the world for thousands of years. Plus it is extensively referred to in our bible. Israel is completely part of our heritage.

I'm not referring to the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Different people, different time. You may share DNA with them but it you go back far enough we all have common DNA.

So how is the new state of Israel part of your heritage?

Also I don't consider the Bible a reliable historical reference.

 

[Nakosis]

In regards to Bibi:

Any charge recommendations will be passed on to the Attorney General who was appointed by Netanyahu. They could die on his desk.

A politician taking bribes.

This one happens to be Jewish.

 

[Akivah]

I'm not referring to the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Different people, different time.

You didn't say that. You said it never existed prior to 1948.

So how is the new state of Israel part of your heritage?

Also I don't consider the Bible a reliable historical reference.

Then you're missing out.

Israel is part of our blood, our DNA if you will. We have a multi-thousand year connection to that strip of land. It is religious, it is cultural, and it is traditional. Our prayers and thoughts are directed to it. G-d granted it to us on an eternal basis, so it isn't something that has a time limit that we should forget about it.

 

[Nakosis]

You didn't say that. You said it never existed prior to 1948.

As a state no. Other than perhaps a token spiritual successor, I don't see any imperative to recognize it as such.

Then you're missing out.

Israel is part of our blood, our DNA if you will. We have a multi-thousand year connection to that strip of land. It is religious, it is cultural, and it is traditional. Our prayers and thoughts are directed to it. G-d granted it to us on an eternal basis, so it isn't something that has a time limit that we should forget about it.

Being I'm areligious, religious reasoning doesn't carry a lot of weight for me.

I've nothing against Israel. As long as it is able to control its borders they have the same right as anyone else to exist.

I just don't see any benefit a non-Israeli would get from it existing they wouldn't be able to get through some other means.

It's not for me to decide to decide whether any individual feels some personal benefit from the existence of Israel or not. If they do great. If they don't, I don't see where they are missing out on anything as in the case of these young Jews living in SF.

 

[Father Heathen]

Ethics should trump identity.

And partisanship.

 

[Revoltingest]

And partisanship.

I say that's one kind of identity.

 

[Duke_Leto]

I say that's one kind of identity.

That would be a shallow identity.

 

[Revoltingest]

That would be a shallow identity.

Opinions will vary.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Opinions will vary.

You don't agree? Forming your identity based on your political opinions is one thing; forming it on the opinions of others is another.

 

[Revoltingest]

You don't agree? Forming your identity based on your political opinions is one thing; forming it on the opinions of others is another.

Libertarian values are important to my identity.
But they transcend nationality, religion, etc, so
there's no conflict between ethics & identity for me.
But if someone does find conflict, I'd urge giving
ethics priority over identity.