That darned trinity.

[Oeste]

6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

Always a pleasure reading your comments @KenS, ditto for @InChrist and others.

Philippians 2:5-6 are very difficult verses for our anti-Trinitarian friends to get over, under, or around. As @blü 2 has already pointed out, it refers to Jesus "who was in the form of God" during his
preincarnate state. Not in the "form of angels", but in "the form of God". Yet there is only one God, and there is no one like Him:

"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me," (Isaiah 46:9)​

So we have Paul telling us Jesus was in "the form of God" and Isaiah telling us there is no one like God. It's hard to make yourself into a form that is unlike any other form unless you are that form, isn't it? It gets even more eye-opening for our friends when they realize Paul tells us Jesus "was in the form of God" (existent state) rather than their preferred "formed by God" (created state).

But reconciling text leads us into biblical exegesis, whereas the many posts on this forum seem to tell us the preferred method of proof-texting is much more fun.

 

[blü 2]

Philippians 2:5-6 are very difficult verses for our anti-Trinitarian friends to get over, under, or around.

They don't support Trinitarian claims, if that's what you're referring to. They refer to Jesus in heaven having the form of a god, but as an entity distinct from God; and this (a) doesn't change in the course of the 'Kenosis Hymn' and (b) agrees with the words of Jesus I posted in #35.

When Jesus says (for instance) John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” how could he possibly make it clearer that he is not, and doesn't claim to be, God? Let alone all the other quotes with the same message?

So we have Paul telling us Jesus was in "the form of God"

You may be familiar with the view that the Kenosis Hymn has another source (which would make it a candidate for the oldest known Christian text) and that Paul is simply quoting it. But whatever its source, it is (so I read) a poem in meter, and in line 8 the words which translate as 'even death on a cross' are not in meter and so appear to be a later gloss, raising the possibility that crucifixion was not part of the initial story of Jesus' death. Lines 9-10 ─

9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow​

say that Jesus (= Joshua / Yeshua / Yehoshua meaning 'God is salvation') was not called Jesus until after his death.

But reconciling text leads us into biblical exegesis, whereas the many posts on this forum seem to tell us the preferred method of proof-texting is much more fun.

On what basis would you wish to reconcile conflicting texts? How can you do that without rewriting the meaning on the page and in the process imposing your own view, instead of understanding what the text actually says?

Or doesn't it matter what the text actually says, it's just a board on which a game is played?

 

[Oeste]

My body is 100% me and my spirit is 100% me and my soul is 100% me.

Yes, but that's not the point. You are not 100% body AND 100% soul AND 100% spirit ─ there isn't 300% of you, there's only 100% of you, the sum of body and soul and spirit.

You’ve missed the point.

Ken’s body is 100% Ken, his spirit is 100% Ken, and his soul is 100% Ken. This does not triple Ken to “300%” but all 3 are 100% Ken. There is still one not three Kens.

Jesus is 100% God, the Spirit is 100% God, and the Father is 100% God. This does not triple God to “300%” but all 3 are 100% God. There is still one not three Gods.

Likewise, claiming Ken’s body is 33% of Ken doesn’t work. How can Ken’s body be only 33% of Ken? Did you chop off the other 66 2/3 percent? The body is 100% of Ken. Ditto for his Spirit and Soul.

And attempting to make Jesus 33% of God doesn’t work either. How can Jesus be 33% of God? Ditto for the Holy Spirit and the Father.

It’s as simple as that.

Whereas the doctrine of the Trinity says that God is both one, and three 'persons', Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Ghost, who are distinct from each other AND that each of these is 100% of God AND that this doesn't make sense and so has to be called a 'mystery in the strict sense'.

The Trinity doctrine does not say “it doesn’t make sense”. It’s a mystery because we don’t understand God.

If you really, really want a God you can understand you can always create one in your own image, much like the Greeks, Romans, Aztecs and Egyptians did. As for the Christian God,:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55)​

In other words, God is a “mystery” to us.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

That isn't a claim to be God, or the equal of God. It's perfectly consistent with Jesus' claim to be the agent of God, deriving any power he has from God.

Well if that isn’t a claim to be God then it would certainly be a claim to vanity.

More on this below.

So which do you prefer, the word of Jesus or the word of Thomas? They can't both be right.

Which scriptures do you think wrong?

This distinguishes two characters, Jesus and God. It says (Philippians 2:6) ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ ie that Jesus had 'the form of God' (morphē theou) but 'did not count equality with God (isa theō) a thing to be grasped (harpagmon)' ie realized equality with God was not possible. It never says Jesus is God or that Jesus and God are the same person.

Where does it say “equality with God was not possible”? It doesn’t say “but did not count equality with God a thing that can’t be grasped” does it?

It says what it says…”but did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped”.


I prefer this rendering:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God​

Robbery comes from the Greek word Harpagmos which literally means “to plunder”. Indeed, his being “equal with God “did not create two Gods anymore than KenS’s Spirit creates two Kens. Nor did it take away, steal, diminish or plunder any of God’s glory.

All Glory belongs to God (Ephesians 3:20; Galatians 1:5). Jesus would have been crazy asking God to give him his own glory “back” when he couldn’t possibly have any since all glory is God’s. The only way Jesus would have the audacity to ask for his own glory back (which is all God’s) is if he was God Himself, because God doesn’t share His glory with another (Isaiah 42:8). Yet we see Jesus claiming he had his own glory before the world began.

The bible takes a dim view of those who think too highly of themselves or liken themselves to deity:

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 The 2:4)

Yet no censure or condemnation was or is ever conferred by God upon Jesus.

Please show me where Jesus contradicted any of these statements.

Why would Jesus contradict any of the verses you’ve posted? Let’s not forget Jesus has a dual nature. He is 100% man and 100% God, allowing him to speak as a man or speak as the second person of the Triune God. There are no anti-Trinitarian obstacles here.

And where anyone in the NT says the Holy Ghost is God, not just God's errand boy.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Since the Trinity is pretty much established doctrine for some one billion people it is you who must climb the hill. A good start is where we can find the Spirit defined as “God’s errand boy”.

And please explain why there was no doctrine of the Trinity before the 4th century.

There was plenty of scripture, but no “bible” before the 4th century either. Is this the basis of your skepticism?

As you well know, the authentication of cannon and church doctrine came as the result of numerous heresies which arose in the early church.

And why the doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent in the manner I mentioned and so has had to have been given the special excuse (by express church doctrine) that it's 'a mystery in the strict sense' and 'not contrary to reason but above reason' and similar nonsense.

This was explained above. I think it would be nonsense to think we understand God and just as silly to worship one that had no mystery and one we completely understood. I would be suspect of any man who is baffled by a wife he can see, but totally understands a God that he can't.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is 100% God, the Spirit is 100% God, and the Father is 100% God. This does not triple God to “300%” but all 3 are 100% God. There is still one not three Gods.

Likewise, claiming Ken’s body is 33% of Ken doesn’t work. How can Ken’s body be only 33% of Ken? Did you chop off the other 66 2/3 percent? The body is 100% of Ken. Ditto for his Spirit and Soul.

And attempting to make Jesus 33% of God doesn’t work either. How can Jesus be 33% of God? Ditto for the Holy Spirit and the Father.

It’s as simple as that.

Good post.....

 

[Oeste]

They don't support Trinitarian claims, if that's what you're referring to. They refer to Jesus in heaven having the form of a god, but as an entity distinct from God; and this (a) doesn't change in the course of the 'Kenosis Hymn' and (b) agrees with the words of Jesus I posted in #35.

I can't find ANY translation, anywhere, that reads "having the form of a god". You'd have to show me a manuscript on that.

When you say "...as and entity distinct from God" all that means to me is that he is distinct from the Spirit and the Father, a well founded doctrinal aspect of the Trinity.

When Jesus says (for instance) John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” how could he possibly make it clearer that he is not, and doesn't claim to be, God? Let alone all the other quotes with the same message?

I don't see the problem. There is only one true God, not two. He was in the form of God, not "a god", but emptied himself, "being born in the likeness of men".

You may be familiar with the view that the Kenosis Hymn has another source

C'mon Blϋ...by now you know the only source that's really persuasive with me are the biblical sources and the manuscripts they're based on. Besides, I wouldn't see anything wrong with Paul taking secular or other sources and incorporating them into scripture. Jesus did much the same during his sermon on the Mount ("You have heard it said..."). It is all done under the guidance of the Spirit.

On what basis would you wish to reconcile conflicting texts? How can you do that without rewriting the meaning on the page and in the process imposing your own view, instead of understanding what the text actually says?

By letting scripture interpret scripture. It doesn't eliminate bias, but it's a start. It would also involve identifying the historical and literary context. genre (hymn, poetry, narrative, dialogue, speech, etc), literary structure and grammatical study.

 

[Trailblazer]

When Jesus says (for instance) John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” how could he possibly make it clearer that he is not, and doesn't claim to be, God? Let alone all the other quotes with the same message?

Indeed, and then there is this......

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

How can Jesus be God and a mediator between God and men?

Then there are these, just a few from a long list I have...

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

 

[blü 2]

Indeed, and then there is this......

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

How can Jesus be God and a mediator between God and men?

Then there are these, just a few from a long list I have...

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Excellent material right on the point.

 

[Trailblazer]

Excellent material right on the point.

Thanks. I do not know the Bible very well, but some things are just obvious...

 

[Deeje]

@Trailblazer .....And then there is Jesus' own words in prayer to his Father....."This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

So knowing God and his Christ are necessary.....but is knowledge of the holy spirit not necessary for everlasting life then? No mention of the third and supposedly equal member of the trinity here. Why do we only need to know God and Jesus to gain everlasting life?

If the Father is the "only true God" and Jesus is the one he sent, then there are clearly two, not three entities who can be in separate places at the same time.

Since Jesus prayed to his Father and said "let not my will, but yours be done", do we imagine one part of God is talking to another equal part of himself and telling that part of himself that his will should be done? What about the will of the holy spirit?
If they are all one and the same God, why would the will of the one be different to the will of the other(s)?

In Matthew 24:36..."Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." Again, does one part of God know things that the other part(s) do not? No holy spirit mentioned again. Count how many times the holy spirit is missing when Jesus and his Father are mentioned together.

And Philippians 2:5-11 has been suggested as one that non-trinitarians might find difficult.....nothing could be further from the truth. If we read it carefully......

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11)

"although He existed in the form of God". What is God's form? John 4:24 says "God is a spirit" so what form would Jesus have if he was existing in the same "form" as his Father before becoming a human on earth? He too would be a spirit. Angels are spirits as well. All exist in God's "form".

"did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped"
This says that Jesus did NOT regard equality with God something that he wanted. Which is strange considering that most trinitarians claim that Jesus was fully God whilst being fully man. At no time has Jesus ever been equal with his God and Father. He has no need to be...he has no need to be God in order to redeem mankind. His life had to be equal to Adam's not God's.

"but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men"

If Jesus is called God's "Holy Servant". Can God be the servant of himself? (Acts 3:13; 4:27-30)

"Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death."

If Jesus was God then he was immortal and could not die....and if he was equally God, then to whom was he "obedient"? How can parts of God not be equal to each other? Who obeys whom?

"For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name."

How does one part of God "exalt" another equal part of himself? And how does one part of God give another part of himself a name higher than what he already has? (Psalm 83:18 KJV) We all know that the name of the Father is Yehovah (Jehovah) and the name of the Son is Yeshua (Jesus).....so what is the name of the third member of this triune godhead?

"and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

We bend our knee to honor the son for his great sacrifice for mankind, but confessing Jesus as Lord brings glory, not to Jesus, but to the Father.

Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus "the beginning of God's creation" so as a created "firstborn" son, Jesus is before all others, (Colossians 1:15-17) but was still 'begotten' by the Father long before coming to earth.

The scriptures themselves clearly show that Jesus is not, and never was, God incarnate.

If the Bible says that "no man has seen God at any time" then ask how many people saw Jesus? He can be a "god" without being THE God. Look up the meaning of the word "god" in Greek. "Theos" means "a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities".

Jesus is a divine personage, no doubt about that, but he is not, and has never been the equal of his own God and father. (Revelation 3:12)

And finally, when Jesus was accused of blasphemy for claiming to be "God's son" then imagine what the Jews would have said if he had claimed to be "God"?!! (John 10:31-36)

 

[blü 2]

Ken’s body is 100% Ken, his spirit is 100% Ken, and his soul is 100% Ken. This does not triple Ken to “300%” but all 3 are 100% Ken. There is still one not three Kens.

That's what Ken said, and as I said, it misses the point, since it doesn't accurately parallel the Trinity doctrine.

Ken's body is 100% Ken but not 100% of Ken. 100% of Ken = body + soul + spirit, and if each of those exists as a positive quantity, each must be less than 100% of Ken.

Whereas while Yahweh is 100% God, Yahweh is also 100% of God. And Jesus is 100% of God. And the Holy Ghost is 100% of God. That indeed adds up to 300% of God.

But the doctrine insists that in this case 100 + 100 + 100 = 100, which is a nonsense, as the Trinitarians openly admit by giving it the nonsense names 'a mystery in the strict sense' and something 'not against reason but above reason'.

And attempting to make Jesus 33% of God doesn’t work either. How can Jesus be 33% of God?

There are two possibilities that are reasonable. EITHER the sum of the three persons of God = 100% so each of the persons (they being of equal value) is 33.3% of God, OR the sum of the three persons of God = 300% = 3 Gods. Neither of those is what the Trinity doctrine said, which is why it's a nonsense, or 'mystery in the strict sense' if you prefer.

The Trinity doctrine does not say “it doesn’t make sense”.

Let me quote from the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church's entry for 'Trinity' for you:

This doctrine is held to be a mystery in the strict sense, in that it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed.
​

In other words, it's a nonsense. Check out the RC Encyclopedia on the net under 'Trinity' and 'Mystery' and you'll find the same thing.

It’s a mystery because we don’t understand God.

God has nothing to do with the Trinity. It's a 4th century invention to solve a political problem: how to satisfy the aspirations of the faithful to elevate the central figure of Christian worship to God status, and at the same time avoid Jewish criticism that like the pagans the Christians were polytheists.

The Trinity is refuted again and again in the NT by all those out loud denials by Jesus that he's God. See the NT quotes of words attributed to Jesus in direct speech that so far neither you nor Ken have addressed.

If you really, really want a God you can understand you can always create one in your own image.

The god of Jesus in the NT is Yahweh, the god of the Tanakh and the Law. That god has no Trinity problems.

Where does it say “equality with God was not possible”?

That's my paraphrase of Philippians 2:6, ὃς (who) ἐν μορφῇ (in form) θεοῦ (of-god) ὑπάρχων (existed) οὐχ (did-not) ἁρπαγμὸν (a seizing) ἡγήσατο (think) τὸ (thing) εἶναι (to be) ἴσα (equal) θεῷ (to-god). In RSV that's rendered who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped

The only way Jesus would have the audacity to ask for his own glory back (which is all God’s) is if he was God Himself

That's just standing on the fringes dreaming up excuses.

I want to see you grasp the real nettles, and say, for instance, "When Jesus says (John 17:3) 'And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent', thus carefully distinguishing himself from the only true God, he's simply mistaken, or else he's lying."

And so on through the list of quotes I gave at #35 and Trailblazer added to at #46..

 

[Kenny]

Yes, but that's not the point. You are not 100% body AND 100% soul AND 100% spirit ─ there isn't 300% of you, there's only 100% of you, the sum of body and soul and spirit.

True, if you want to think of it naturally and literally. But if you want, you could view it as 100% God in all of His attributes and capacities as the Father, Son and/or Holy Spirit.

It is still 100% God.

If I look at my body... it is 100% me. Yet, if you look at my spirit it is still 100% me.

Whereas the doctrine of the Trinity says that God is both one, and three 'persons', Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Ghost, who are distinct from each other AND that each of these is 100% of God AND that this doesn't make sense and so has to be called a 'mystery in the strict sense'.

It makes sense to me... I am both one and three persons, spirit, soul and body.. and all are distinct from each other AND each of these is 100% me... makes perfect sense.

In Mark, the earliest gospel version ie the original story (at Mark 1:10), Jesus is simply an ordinary human until, at his baptism, Yahweh adopts him as his son, in the Jewish manner ─ not just Psalm 2:7, which Acts 13:33 specifically mentions, but also 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalm 89:26-27. When the authors of Matthew and of Luke (the other two synoptics) took Mark's text and reworked and added to it, they brought in a virgin and a divine insemination (which are from Greek tradition).
That isn't a claim to be God, or the equal of God. It's perfectly consistent with Jesus' claim to be the agent of God, deriving any power he has from God.
A fair point. I should have said, 'uncontradicted by Jesus', not just 'uncontradicted'.

Again, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO see the difference between the Word and when the Word was made flesh when He voluntarily decided to empty Himself of His God attributes... then you would be correct bit you are wrong.

PS... I don't believe there was a "divine insemination" if you are thinking naturally where a sperm enters an egg but, more scripturally, "a body He has prepared for me"... God created the body by the the power of His word which was spoken and by which Mary said "Be it unto me according to your word"/

So which do you prefer, the word of Jesus or the word of Thomas? They can't both be right.

Au contraire... they were both right. As a 100% man, Jesus was correct to make us understand that as a man, the second Adam, he endured all things legally to take back the authority Adam gave to Satan. But as 100% God, he was still Lord and God. Had he sinned, we would have a different story.

This distinguishes two characters, Jesus and God. It says (Philippians 2:6) ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ ie that Jesus had 'the form of God' (morphē theou) but 'did not count equality with God (isa theō) a thing to be grasped (harpagmon)' ie realized equality with God was not possible. It never says Jesus is God or that Jesus and God are the same person.

I disagree and your definition is wrong... In that there are no other gods but one, to be EQUALand to have His very nature is to be God.

John Gill "he is nothing but nature and essence, he is the (Greek letters) , the Jehovah, I am what I am; and so is his Son, which is, and was, and is to come, the fountain of all created beings... ...this phrase, "the form of God", is to be understood of the nature and essence of God, and describes Christ as he was from all eternity"

It is understood.

No, relentlessly and totally contradicted by Jesus himself. Here's a longer list of things Jesus said by way of making it perfectly clear that he wasn't God:

Mark 2:10 “the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

...
John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

Please show me where Jesus contradicted any of these statements.

Again, IF YOU DON'T WANT to see the difference between the Word made flesh as Jesus where He emptied Himself of God attribues and The Word BEFORE he was made flesh ... then you would be right... but you are wrong as they are two distinct periods of time. So EVERT statement from above would be correct as it was in the time period that he was no longer EQUAL to God with the same NATURE as God and thus... "humbled himself to become a man"

And where anyone in the NT says the Holy Ghost is God, not just God's errand boy.

To many to list and many by works and by implication.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (It is the Holy Spirit of God - not some errand boy -- with multiple OT support)

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever—AMP (Another- one just like me)

John 14:16 and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforting Counselor like me, the Spirit of Truth, to be with you forever. (Only God is a Spirit of Truth)

And please explain why there was no doctrine of the Trinity before the 4th century.

Oh... but there was!!

Come near me and listen to this: “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. “And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Isaiah 48:16,17).

The Word is speaking designating the Sovereign Lord (The Father) with his Spirit (Holy Spirit) and then declares, the one who came as Jesus, that he is "I am the LORD your God" as confirmed by Thomas.

2nd Century:
Ignatius:"Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual. —Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 13 [SR][17]"

"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water…. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." —Didache 7:1[20]

Many more.

.

And why the doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent in the manner I mentioned and so has had to have been given the special excuse (by express church doctrine) that it's 'a mystery in the strict sense' and 'not contrary to reason but above reason' and similar nonsense.

Very coherent to me. Have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

 

[Kenny]

Freeing the mind allows one to see more than black marks on a white background.

Yes... head knowledge vs heart relationship is the difference betweed same old and transformation.

 

[Kenny]

You obviously failed to read my post, again.

Here’s something I found online.


About God: There is one God, who has revealed Himself as our Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh. He is both God and man. (Deuteronomy 6:4; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:1

This is from a Oneness Pentacostal church website. I may not agree with some of their ideas, but at least they know God.

Yes... there is a oneness to the Godhead.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Yes... there is a oneness to the Godhead.

'You have eyes--can't you see? You have ears--can't you hear?'

Pretty sad, but not unexpected.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here’s something I found online.

About God: There is one God, who has revealed Himself as our Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh. He is both God and man. (Deuteronomy 6:4; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:1

This is from a Oneness Pentacostal church website. I may not agree with some of their ideas, but at least they know God.

God cannot become a man. God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to humanity because the Essence of God (God’s intrinsic nature) is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men and can never be known except through a Manifestation of God sent by God. God manifested Himself by sending Jesus and thus Jesus manifested God.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

God manifested His Attributes in the man Jesus and in that sense Jesus can be considered God; but Jesus was not the Essence of God in the flesh, but rather a perfect mirror image of God, a reflection of God on earth, a Manifestation of God.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 54

 

[Trailblazer]

There are two possibilities that are reasonable. EITHER the sum of the three persons of God = 100% so each of the persons (they being of equal value) is 33.3% of God, OR the sum of the three persons of God = 300% = 3 Gods. Neither of those is what the Trinity doctrine said, which is why it's a nonsense, or 'mystery in the strict sense' if you prefer.

Jesus reflected God’s glory but being like God is not the same as being God. God is one and alone and has no peer or equal.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

Jesus was like God because Jesus was a mirror image of God, a pure reflection of God. The Attributes of God became manifest in Jesus; but the Essence of God did not descend and dwell in Jesus. No, God continues to subsist in His exaltation and sublimity.

It is a Baha’i belief that the nature of God is unique and has no equal. That is explained in these excerpts from this chapter on the Trinity.

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?
Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division......

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror...... So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly......

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 113-114

 

[InChrist]

Yes... there is a oneness to the Godhead.

It is true there is oneness in the Godhead, yet I think you'll agree God has also stamped His Three in One nature throughout His creation for all to see.

The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter, and time. Each of these is divided into three.

Space is composed of length, breadth, and height, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one

Time also has three components: past, present, and future, with two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole.

Matter can exist in one of three main states: solid, liquid, or gas.

And as you have already pointed out a human being is body, soul, and spirit.

I believe the Bible presents a God complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. One who has existed in love, communion and fellowship with each other eternally before the universe, angels or humans were created. The Bible says that "God is love.". The highest form of love expressed in the scriptures is agape love or love for another. That God must have both unity and diversity is clear because it is this unity and diversity within the Godhead which makes possible the reality that God is Love. If God is singular, then whom did God selflessly and eternally love when he was alone before creation?

I don't think it can be a coincidence than the triune nature of God is reflected in the universe and on display throughout creation.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe God is not neuter and He certainly has what are considered personal characteristics.
I believe my body is an it but it is still part of my person.
I believe that is an attempt at proof texting but what is good for one poster should be good for another.

Both God and Jesus (and all angels) are in masculine gender, but God's spirit is neuter 'it' at Numbers 11:17,25.
No where in Scripture did I read God's spirit was in God's nose, or Jesus' nose, but rather in Job 27:3 nose.
I find some peoples bodies are male, some peoples bodies are female, being either a male or female person or body.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I recall knocking on my friend's door. He asked "Who is it?
I said "It's me."
Neither he nor I were implying that I had been neutered. That's something one would have to read into, rather than out of our conversation.

Of course you would say, "It's me." because you are a person.
I can picture Jesus saying the same thing because Jesus is a person.
I can picture God as saying the same thing because God is a person - Hebrews 9:24.
However, how can one picture Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25 knocking on any door.
Also,the old King James Bible at Romans 8:16; Romans 6:26 talks about the spirit 'itself'.
So, to me an ' it ' and an ' itself ' would be doing No knocking on anything because 'it' and itself' are neuters.
I don't read of any third person mentioned at 1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[Kenny]

'You have eyes--can't you see? You have ears--can't you hear?'

Pretty sad, but not unexpected.

Why, thank you, Gerry! Do have a good day!