Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
Who is the 4th?
Hannity ?
Have a nice night (or day).
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4 horsemen of the apocalypse
- Thread starter Jeremiah Ames
- Start date
Who is the 4th?
Hannity ?
Have a nice night (or day).
james bond
Well-Known Member
Whenever I hear the Four Horsemen, I am reminded of Hulk Hogan's cry of "What you gonna do when the Hulkamaniacs run wild over you?" That is, when the Four Horsemen of the Bible comes as described in Revelation 6:1-8.
"The First Seal—Rider on White Horse
6 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Comea]">[a].” 2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
The Second Seal—War
3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Comeb]">[b].” 4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
The Third Seal—Famine
5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Comec]">[c].” I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A d]">[d]quart of wheat for a e]">[e]denarius, and three f]">[f]quarts of barley for a g]">[g]denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”
The Fourth Seal—Death
7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Comeh]">[h].” 8 I looked, and behold, an i]">[i]ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with j]">[j]pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
It means by then, it's too late. It's over.
Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 6:1-8 - New American Standard Bible
"The First Seal—Rider on White Horse
6 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Comea]">[a].” 2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
The Second Seal—War
3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Comeb]">[b].” 4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
The Third Seal—Famine
5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Comec]">[c].” I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A d]">[d]quart of wheat for a e]">[e]denarius, and three f]">[f]quarts of barley for a g]">[g]denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”
The Fourth Seal—Death
7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Comeh]">[h].” 8 I looked, and behold, an i]">[i]ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with j]">[j]pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
It means by then, it's too late. It's over.
Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 6:1-8 - New American Standard Bible
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
I thought Rachel Maddow or maybe Shaun King.
The Four Horsemen—Who Are They?
The four horsemen may seem mysterious and terrifying, but that does not have to be the case. Why not? Because the Bible and the events of modern history help us to identify clearly what each horseman pictures.
Who is the 4th?
THE RIDER OF THE PALE HORSE
“I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.”—Revelation 6:8.
The fourth rider represents death due to plague and other causes. Soon after 1914, the Spanish flu killed tens of millions. Possibly some 500 million people were infected, about 1 out of every 3 humans then alive!
But the Spanish flu was just the beginning. Experts estimate that hundreds of millions died of smallpox during the 20th century. To this day, the lives of millions are cut short by AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria, despite intensive medical research.
The result is the same, death—whether due to war, famine, or plague. The Grave relentlessly gathers up the victims, offering no hope.
The Four Horsemen—Who Are They? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
The four horsemen may seem mysterious and terrifying, but that does not have to be the case. Why not? Because the Bible and the events of modern history help us to identify clearly what each horseman pictures.
Who is the 4th?
THE RIDER OF THE PALE HORSE
“I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.”—Revelation 6:8.
The fourth rider represents death due to plague and other causes. Soon after 1914, the Spanish flu killed tens of millions. Possibly some 500 million people were infected, about 1 out of every 3 humans then alive!
But the Spanish flu was just the beginning. Experts estimate that hundreds of millions died of smallpox during the 20th century. To this day, the lives of millions are cut short by AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria, despite intensive medical research.
The result is the same, death—whether due to war, famine, or plague. The Grave relentlessly gathers up the victims, offering no hope.
The Four Horsemen—Who Are They? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
War, death and famine. Do the horsemen actually bring anything that hasn’t existed for an ever. They thought the plague was the end of the world. Every pandemic earthquake and war is the end of the world because of religion but we just see the same thing different century. All we see now is humans flourishing beyond even hospitable numbers so the earth doing some house cleaning one way or another is inevitable, humans certainly don’t need to try and hasten it ourselves.
Update:
Due to budget cuts, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalyopse -- previously Famine, War, Pestilence and Death -- are now Hunger Pangs, Sniffles, Ennui, and Flatulence.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
My father's socks actually match.
Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
Deeje, although I truly enjoy reading your informative posts, unfortunately I cannot agree with the analysis from watchtower.The Four Horsemen—Who Are They?
The four horsemen may seem mysterious and terrifying, but that does not have to be the case. Why not? Because the Bible and the events of modern history help us to identify clearly what each horseman pictures.
Who is the 4th?
THE RIDER OF THE PALE HORSE
“I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.”—Revelation 6:8.
The fourth rider represents death due to plague and other causes. Soon after 1914, the Spanish flu killed tens of millions. Possibly some 500 million people were infected, about 1 out of every 3 humans then alive!
But the Spanish flu was just the beginning. Experts estimate that hundreds of millions died of smallpox during the 20th century. To this day, the lives of millions are cut short by AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria, despite intensive medical research.
The result is the same, death—whether due to war, famine, or plague. The Grave relentlessly gathers up the victims, offering no hope.
The Four Horsemen—Who Are They? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
For so many reasons. A few verses were used to support a conclusion that was stated at the beginning. That the events of modern history support the verses used from the Bible.
God’s kingdom exists on the earth as we speak, and has existed for a long time. There is no reason to expect a second coming on a white horse. The ‘warrior-king’ description makes no sense. And the word ‘conquer’ is wrong and not fitting. There is nothing to conquer. Death and the devil have already been defeated long ago. Not only would it serve no purpose, but it is not in God’s very character.
So, reading about the other three horseman, there was nothing useful there for me, since the beginning of the narrative about the white horse was built on quicksand.
Humbly imo.
Buddha Dharma
Dharma Practitioner
I'm sure the all-knowing Watchtower Society will have a new, expounded explanation when this prophecy also fails, or something changes.
Hi Gerry, nice to dialogue with you again....
I understand that you may have a very different view of things to me. But John's Revelation reaches down to our present day. This is confirmed by the prophesies in Daniel. I don't know of you have done any in depth study of Daniel, but it is a truly amazing book written by a truly amazing, tried and true servant of God.
In the last chapter of his book, Daniel is told..... “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and knowledge will become abundant." (Daniel 12:4)
When is "the time of the end"? Other portions of Daniel's book explain many aspects of this time period, including the time when we could expect Christ's return.
Daniel's prophesy concerning Messiah's appearance was used by the Jews to calculate his first appearance and Jesus presented himself for baptism, right on time. He was "cut off" exactly as Daniel had foretold. (Daniel 9:24-27)
John the Baptist's 'preparing the way' for the Christ was also a sign for the Jews. Like Jesus, John was very critical of the Pharisees for their adherence to tradition over the word of God. These were the ones responsible for misleading the entire nation so that only a "remnant" of fleshly Israel would accept their Messiah. (Romans 9:27; Isaiah 10:22)
God's Kingdom is not yet ruling the earth though. It is ruling only in the hearts of those who follow the teachings of God's son. Do you know what God's Kingdom is, and how it "comes"? Daniel spoke about it in prophesy.....
The King of Babylon had a disturbing dream and consulted his priests for an an interpretation. The only problem was, Nebuchadnezzar couldn't remember it. He expected those with spiritual discernment and connection to the gods to be able to tell him the dream and what it meant....none of them could, so he was going to exterminate the lot of them. But Daniel interpreted the dream for the king because it was divinely provided, and it had to do with the establishment of God's Kingdom.
The King saw in his dream, an immense image made of various metals. This symbolized a march of world powers who would have a connection to God's people down through the ages. (Daniel ch 2) Beginning with Babylon, (the head of gold) he saw Medo-Persai, (silver) Greece, (copper) Rome (iron) and Britain, culminating in the Anglo-American alliance that would rule during "the time of the end".
We are living in the time of the feet of clay. It is at this time in history that Daniel saw a huge stone "not cut out by hands" (not man made) hurtle towards the feet of the image, toppling the whole thing and sending it crashing down and it is destroyed completely.
Then Daniel said...
"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever" (Daniel 2:44)
The Kingdom of God is a heavenly government that will take over rulership of the earth by crushing all corrupt human governments out of existence. It is due very soon. There is no other kingdom mentioned after the feet of clay.
On the contrary, we see that the devil is still very much an evil force in this world that needs to be removed. He is in control of the whole world. (1 John 5:19) Surely you can't believe that this level of evil is something God approves of? This is not the way humans were meant to live. Who would choose to live in this world?
Until every vestige of satan's rulership of this world is removed, all of the things that cause human misery will continue. In these "last days" the Warrior King rides first, then the rest of the horsemen follow, representing the things that humans will experience under the devil's rulership right up to the time Jesus throws him into a deep abyss along with his minions. (Revelation 12:7-12) This will be at the finale, when Armageddon finally cleanses the earth of all corruption and wickedness. This is the war that will end all wars. This will be God reclaiming his sovereignty over this earth....by force. This was prophesied in Jeremiah 25:33.
It is true that the means to defeat death and the devil were implemented almost 2,000 years ago when Jesus paid the ransom for us. But we are all still suffering and dying due to the effects of sin, and the devil is more active than ever. All that Daniel prophesied still had to transpire. When Jesus walked the earth, Rome was the dominant world power and the British Empire still had to arise and align itself with America. Jesus called this entire period "the Times of the Gentiles" when God's people would be subject to Gentile governments.
Speaking to the Jews, Jesus said about the events indicating the time of the end....
"For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)
The Jews had lost God's favor and would suffer because of it until the "appointed times of the nations are fulfilled".
Jesus was speaking about the entire period that Nebuchadnezzar's dream had foretold. The full period when Jews would be dominated by Gentile governments.....from Babylon to now. God's people (Christ's disciples) even now suffer under present world rulerships. (John 15:18-21)
Everything the Bible foretold has come true. So now we are waiting for Christ to finish what he started.....the coming Kingdom will crush all present world rulerships out of existence...like they were never there. The object lesson for disobedient mankind began in Eden, and will finish in the very near future. Jesus told us to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" and for his "will to be done on earth as it is in heaven"....it's not that we are going to the Kingdom....but that it would 'come' to us as a relief from all the horrendous rulerships that satan has set up on this earth.
We want God's will to be done on earth because it never has been enjoyed as a means to live in the paradise that Adam and his wife lost for their children......and we have ample proof that humans are lousy at ruling themselves.
I don't know what you believe about the Bible's narrative, but we can see clearly that "the end" is in sight....only God knows when. (Matthew 24:36) Mother Earth and the living things upon it have never been in greater danger. Man's rulership and mismanagement of this planet and its inhabitants will demand an accounting......and woe to those found guilty of doing the damage or supporting those who are ruining it. (Revelation 11:18)
I see a big picture.....what do you see?
I understand that you may have a very different view of things to me. But John's Revelation reaches down to our present day. This is confirmed by the prophesies in Daniel. I don't know of you have done any in depth study of Daniel, but it is a truly amazing book written by a truly amazing, tried and true servant of God.
In the last chapter of his book, Daniel is told..... “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and knowledge will become abundant." (Daniel 12:4)
When is "the time of the end"? Other portions of Daniel's book explain many aspects of this time period, including the time when we could expect Christ's return.
Daniel's prophesy concerning Messiah's appearance was used by the Jews to calculate his first appearance and Jesus presented himself for baptism, right on time. He was "cut off" exactly as Daniel had foretold. (Daniel 9:24-27)
John the Baptist's 'preparing the way' for the Christ was also a sign for the Jews. Like Jesus, John was very critical of the Pharisees for their adherence to tradition over the word of God. These were the ones responsible for misleading the entire nation so that only a "remnant" of fleshly Israel would accept their Messiah. (Romans 9:27; Isaiah 10:22)
God's Kingdom is not yet ruling the earth though. It is ruling only in the hearts of those who follow the teachings of God's son. Do you know what God's Kingdom is, and how it "comes"? Daniel spoke about it in prophesy.....
The King of Babylon had a disturbing dream and consulted his priests for an an interpretation. The only problem was, Nebuchadnezzar couldn't remember it. He expected those with spiritual discernment and connection to the gods to be able to tell him the dream and what it meant....none of them could, so he was going to exterminate the lot of them. But Daniel interpreted the dream for the king because it was divinely provided, and it had to do with the establishment of God's Kingdom.
The King saw in his dream, an immense image made of various metals. This symbolized a march of world powers who would have a connection to God's people down through the ages. (Daniel ch 2) Beginning with Babylon, (the head of gold) he saw Medo-Persai, (silver) Greece, (copper) Rome (iron) and Britain, culminating in the Anglo-American alliance that would rule during "the time of the end".
We are living in the time of the feet of clay. It is at this time in history that Daniel saw a huge stone "not cut out by hands" (not man made) hurtle towards the feet of the image, toppling the whole thing and sending it crashing down and it is destroyed completely.
Then Daniel said...
"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever" (Daniel 2:44)
The Kingdom of God is a heavenly government that will take over rulership of the earth by crushing all corrupt human governments out of existence. It is due very soon. There is no other kingdom mentioned after the feet of clay.
On the contrary, we see that the devil is still very much an evil force in this world that needs to be removed. He is in control of the whole world. (1 John 5:19) Surely you can't believe that this level of evil is something God approves of? This is not the way humans were meant to live. Who would choose to live in this world?
Until every vestige of satan's rulership of this world is removed, all of the things that cause human misery will continue. In these "last days" the Warrior King rides first, then the rest of the horsemen follow, representing the things that humans will experience under the devil's rulership right up to the time Jesus throws him into a deep abyss along with his minions. (Revelation 12:7-12) This will be at the finale, when Armageddon finally cleanses the earth of all corruption and wickedness. This is the war that will end all wars. This will be God reclaiming his sovereignty over this earth....by force. This was prophesied in Jeremiah 25:33.
It is true that the means to defeat death and the devil were implemented almost 2,000 years ago when Jesus paid the ransom for us. But we are all still suffering and dying due to the effects of sin, and the devil is more active than ever. All that Daniel prophesied still had to transpire. When Jesus walked the earth, Rome was the dominant world power and the British Empire still had to arise and align itself with America. Jesus called this entire period "the Times of the Gentiles" when God's people would be subject to Gentile governments.
Speaking to the Jews, Jesus said about the events indicating the time of the end....
"For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)
The Jews had lost God's favor and would suffer because of it until the "appointed times of the nations are fulfilled".
Jesus was speaking about the entire period that Nebuchadnezzar's dream had foretold. The full period when Jews would be dominated by Gentile governments.....from Babylon to now. God's people (Christ's disciples) even now suffer under present world rulerships. (John 15:18-21)
Everything the Bible foretold has come true. So now we are waiting for Christ to finish what he started.....the coming Kingdom will crush all present world rulerships out of existence...like they were never there. The object lesson for disobedient mankind began in Eden, and will finish in the very near future. Jesus told us to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" and for his "will to be done on earth as it is in heaven"....it's not that we are going to the Kingdom....but that it would 'come' to us as a relief from all the horrendous rulerships that satan has set up on this earth.
We want God's will to be done on earth because it never has been enjoyed as a means to live in the paradise that Adam and his wife lost for their children......and we have ample proof that humans are lousy at ruling themselves.
So, reading about the other three horseman, there was nothing useful there for me, since the beginning of the narrative about the white horse was built on quicksand.
Humbly imo.
I don't know what you believe about the Bible's narrative, but we can see clearly that "the end" is in sight....only God knows when. (Matthew 24:36) Mother Earth and the living things upon it have never been in greater danger. Man's rulership and mismanagement of this planet and its inhabitants will demand an accounting......and woe to those found guilty of doing the damage or supporting those who are ruining it. (Revelation 11:18)
I see a big picture.....what do you see?
That's the intriguing thing....prophesy is not always fully understood until it is seen in hindsight.
The "sacred secret" about the coming of God's Kingdom was not revealed all at once, so as things unfolded and new features of the sign were discerned, we made adjustments. I for one am grateful that my brothers were used to keep our hope burning bright when more time was needed to endure the present situation. (Matthew 24:13)
We were told by Jesus to "keep on the watch" (Matthew 24:22-24).....and that is what we did. The symbol of the Watchtower is a reminder that the 'watchman' was to sound the alarm if he saw something approaching. It alerted the city's inhabitants of the possibility of an event and they were ready. If what was approaching proved not to be what was anticipated, then the city went back to normal, nothing changed. I am happy to have a vigilant watchman looking after our interests. Better than being under the care of those who have no watchtower, no watchmen, or ones who sleep on the job.
Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
I just logged in for a bit, and found your post.
It’s too late for me tonight, so I will get to it another time. I know it will give me much to think about. Thanks again.