Since Adam was Not a spirit man but formed from the dust of the ground, then Adam did Not always exist with God.
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Matthew 24: 6-8 check-list
- Thread starter Vee
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Since Adam was Not a spirit man but formed from the dust of the ground, then Adam did Not always exist with God.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
So you say, The body of flesh was formed from the dust of the earth.
But the spirit which is in the body of Adam, God put the spirit in the body of Adam
That means, Adam has always been with God.
I also find No indication of the 7th day ending because the 7th day was still on-going in the 1st century according to Hebrews 4:4-11. In verse 10 it says ... as God did (or rested) from His own works.
So, God was resting from further ' creative works ' starting with day 7.
So the ' day ' of Deuteronomy 4:32 is referring to the 6th creative day.
As verse 3 mentions God's works were ' finished ' from the foundation of the world.
Not the founding of planet Earth, but the ' foundation of mankind on Earth ' starting with Adam and Eve.
However, since Adam and Eve and Cain proved wicked, then the foundation of the world (of mankind) would now be counted or started with their righteous son Abel as per Matthew 23:35.
As Scripture teaches Abel came from already sinning parents.
ALL of the 6 creative days are summed up by the singular word ' day ' at Genesis 2:4.
So, verse 5 simply picks up where Genesis 1:31 stopped and thus it continues to Genesis 4:26.
In the English language the word ' spirit ' has many meanings.
We hear of 'football spirit' such as a pep rally is designed to create a lively atmosphere, make people more lively.
A high-spirited horse means he is very lively. Not meaning that the horse was once a spirit animal.
I find it of interest that Deuteronomy 4:32 teaches us where Adam was created.
God ' created ' man upon the Earth. Adam was Not first created in Heaven, but right here on Earth.
God's spirit as per Psalms 104:30 was involved in the process.
Even God's spirit is neuter according to Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25 neuter as the word 'it'.
God and Jesus are always in the masculine gender, but God's spirit is a neuter.
Just as in English we speak of a car or a ship as a 'she ' although they are always neuter as 'it'.
The Greek/English Interlinear at Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26 has God's spirit as neuter ' itself '.
Older KJV Bibles use the neuter, but newer versions took the liberty to change itself to himself.
When we read of one's spirit returning to God that is in the sense of a foreclosed house returning to the owner.
The house does Not literally move or go anywhere, but the possession of the house goes back to the owner.
So, one's life spirit returns to God in that any future life prospect now lies in God's safe hands.
The 'spirit of life' will reside, so to speak, with resurrected ones after they are resurrected.
Please notice where God's spirit was located at Job 27:3____________________
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Are you freaking kidding me,
As to how your explanation of the Spirit, A spirited horse, a spirited football team. Now that's amazing.You really got to be kidding right.
Upon reading the Bible you have to use the correct translation's of Hebrew and Greek language into English.
You just can not go pick out of the English language and apply it to the bible, When the bible was written in the Hebrew and Greek language,
God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life. Genesis 2:7
In the Strong's Concordance of the Hebrew Language page 7307, you'll find the Hebrew word ( Ruwach ) which being Translated into English language meaning Air, Soul, Spirit. The bible was written in Hebrew and Greek language.
Therefore the Hebrew word ( Ruwach ) being Translated into English language simply means = Air, Soul, Spirit.
Therefore God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life, which is the
spirit of life into Adam's nostrils, Therefore
man became a living soul, Genesis 2:7.
Our Spirit was always with God, until God put the spirit into the human body of flesh and blood to become a living human being of flesh and blood.
Before this, we all were Spirit beings with God.
No, no. Ruach is wind or spirit, nephesh is soul. Two totally different words.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Well you said it, So Ruwach also means Spirit.
Maybe you should go to the Strong's Concordance of the bible, for the Hebrew Translation page 7307, which gives the Translation for the Hebrew word Ruwach as being Air, Soul and Spirit.
......and I find your introductory words to be rude and offensive.
No, I am Not kidding because a pep rally is designed to create school spirit.
No, I am Not kidding because a high-spirited horse is a lively horse.
Yes, please do check the Hebrew at Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25 and the reason why I say check the Hebrew in those two verses is because God's spirit in the Hebrew is referred to as the neuter "IT".
I find a Hebrew or an English grammar teacher can explain the use of the word "IT" in those verses.
If you have a local synagogue a Rabbi should be able to also explain "IT" as used in those verses.
I also find the neuter word "IT" as the very last word found at Ecclesiastes 12:7.
God who gave "IT". Not God who gave him.
Now, please check the Greek at Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26 where the Greek says ' the spirit '.
The spirit as being a neuter. I suppose if you have a Greek speaking person in your area could explain it.
I find at Genesis 2:7 that God breathed the 'breath of life' into Adam's nostrils.
It does Not say God breathed a spirit, or a spirit person, into life-less Adam.
Please keep in mind at Job 27:3 that Job, unlike Adam, was already a living soul or person.
So, the spirit of God that was in Job's nostrils was Not bringing a life-less Job to life.
No, it doesn’t give “soul” as a definition anywhere.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm
You are promoting a lie.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the poster did not speak of those signs. Mat 24 follows a very neat logical pattern. Three questions are asked and they are answered in order.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I like to think the sign of the coming of Jesus has already appeared and that generation ends in 2044. It would be nice if he came while I am still living.
The three questions pertained to both applications of the prophesy. They asked.... “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
The last part of the question was thought to be imminent....."the conclusion of the system of things" or "the end of the age". Jesus gave them the signs to watch out for.....but he did not tell them "when" they could expect the time of his "presence" ("parousia" does not mean "coming")
The time of his "presence" and the time of his "manifestation" are two separate events.
After the outbreak of the coming "great tribulation" Jesus foretold....“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."
This has not happened as yet....but Jesus has been "present" for the entire time since his enthronement as King in 1914 when the sign of the last days of this present system began. No man witnessed Jesus' enthronement because it was in heaven. Daniel however was given a vision of that future event. (Daniel 7:13-14) The entire book of Daniel is referencing "the time of the end" and Daniel was told to seal up his book as none of its contents would be fully understood until then. (Daniel 12:4)
This also coincides with the time the devil was confined to the earth to carry out his last attack on God's worshipers in this system. (Revelation 12:7-12)
The devil is no longer subtle....since that time all his efforts have been very concentrated, so that now, as we near the finale, his world is completely saturated with immoral sex and violence and demonic entertainment. Everything in this world is designed to enslave humans in one way or another and take them away from God. They have been convinced either that they don't need him...or that he doesn't exist.
As Jesus was leaving this earth for the last time, the apostles asked.... “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time." (Acts 1:6) It is apparent that they thought that the coming of God's kingdom, which they believed involved fleshly Israel and a re-establishment of God's people as a free and independent nation again under their liberator and King....this was foremost was in their minds. (Suffering under Gentile domination was not easy.) This is what the Messianic prophesies indicated.....but their expectations were not fulfilled at that time.
This is one of the reasons why Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah.....they got the timing wrong. But faith would lead Christian worshippers all the way to the 21st century. In this "time of the end" knowledge would become "abundant" and the ones who were open to the operation of God's spirit were granted understanding and insight into many things. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)
These 'cleansed and refined themselves' spiritually, removing the stain of false doctrines that had been introduced by an apostate church centuries before. They then got busy 'preaching the gospel of the kingdom' (Matthew 24:14) and making disciples, teaching them the truth as Jesus had instructed them to do. (Matthew 28:19-20) He promised that he would back this work.....and he did. It was to be carried on right to the end.
Knowing where we are in the stream of time is important because Jesus said that his coming would be like "a thief in the night"....unexpected by the majority. Only his true disciples would be prepared like the 5 wise virgins of Jesus parable who had oil in reserve to reignite their lamps when the bridegroom delayed. (Matthew 25:1-13)
Will You “Keep on the Watch”? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
I believe that we are living in the outworking of this prophesy.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
That is extremely confusing.
Since these are "...two separate events", perhaps you could explain to FOC and the rest of us how Jesus had one without the other..."presence" without manifestation and "manifestation" without a presence.
Its quite easy. Jesus "presence" precedes his "coming". When Jesus was enthroned in heaven, only then did he become King of God's kingdom. (Daniel 7:13-14) The features of the sign that he gave his disciples to identify the fact that he was ruling, were not something that appeared all at once, but those things identified a time period when all of these features would indicate that he was "present" and ruling "in the midst of his enemies" as King David foretold. (Psalm 110:1-2) It did not mean peace for the earth but "woe".
Throughout the "last days" people would see all of the things Jesus mentioned. ( 1 Timothy 3:1-5) But only after the "great tribulation" would people "see" the manifestation of Jesus "coming on the clouds with power and great glory". (Matthew 24:29-31) By the time people see Jesus, it means that it is too late to jump on the bandwagon. Judgment will be swift.
So his "presence" (parousia) precedes his coming so that all the features of the sign can be discerned by those who accept the message that all Christians were told to preach "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before God brings this system of things crashing down. (Matthew 24:14; Daniel 2:44)
Jesus' manifestation will definitely NOT be without his presence...it will just be visible....very visible.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Does this mean his “presence” preceded his “manifestation” ? If so, what were the signs of his “presence” that had no “manifestation”?
Jesus was born our King (Mat 2:2); he didn’t have to wait until later.
We also have Mat 28:18-20:
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age,'"
Again, since “all authority” had been given Jesus, there was no need for him to wait. This is not like our Presidential election, where we have a President-elect that must wait to take authority because the current incumbent is still in power. He had “all authority”, not “pending authority”.
Lastly Paul writes at 2 Cor 5:20 that we are “ambassadors to Christ.” Only kings send out ambassadors, and if Christ is waiting until 1914 to become King then Paul was making claim to a title that was yet to be his.
Okay…this is the part of your doctrine that I see as really confusing:
“The features of the sign…” are these “features” a manifestation of his presence, or are they features of a "presence" your Organization claims is separate from any manifestation? Also, how can we possibly have a "woe" here when you've already stated there would be no manifestation during his "presence" or "coming"?
Well you did state that the manifestation and presence are “two separate events”. I’m just not sure how you could identify his prior “presence” if you also claim it would have absolutely no “manifestation” until Jesus appears decades into the future “on the clouds with power and great glory”.
Again, you claimed his Parousia and Manifestation are two separate events. So there can’t possibly be a “sign” or “feature” for anyone to discern when you claim there is no manifestation during his Parousia or Presence.
A “sign” or “feature” of a Presence is a manifestation of that same Presence. It doesn't matter if the Presence is visible or invisible as you still have the problem of an invisible Presence replete with "signs" or "features" when your own doctrine dictates this Presence should have absolutely no sign or feature whatsoever.
In other words, it makes no sense for your Organization to say Jesus's (visible or invisible) non-manifested presence was here or over there in one breath, point to "signs" and "features" (manifestations) of this Presence the next, tell us there is no Manifestation with his Presence in another breath, claim Jesus won't Manifest at all until some time years or decades into the future with still more breath, then claim only they could discern it!
It sounds like too many balls in the air.
I'm sure you are Not alone in finding some things confusing.
See if this might help: At Ephesians 5:23 it says Christ is the head of the church ( aka congregation ).
We don't see Christ, yet as head of the congregation the 'invisible Christ' keeps it in its proper place.
Jesus sees to it that Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8 is being carried out today as written.
So, although Jesus is in heaven ( Hebrews 9:24) his 'presence', so to speak, is felt.
Now, on the other hand, we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come.
Come and do what? Come and usher in Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
So, as Jesus is now head of the Christian congregation ( 1 Corinthians 2:16; 1 Corinthians 11:3) Jesus will also show himself to be King of God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44. The powerful ' words ' from Jesus' mouth will bring an end to wickedness on Earth as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
HeatherAnn
Active Member
There have been wars, food shortages and earthquakes since the beginning of time. We hear about them now more because of vast and prompt media coverage.
There is no Jesus coming to rescue everyone in a second coming - and to believe it anyway is what a lot of people believed and were disappointed who cried, "Crucify him!" When asked WHEN the kingdom of God would come, Jesus explained, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, lo here or lo there. BEHOLD, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17
Think about it: Do you experience God anywhere but within you? Of course not - you experience God within you.
It is imperative for Christians to realize the need to do all we can to make this world as good as we can, instead of letting it go to hell, waiting for Jesus to come make it all better. Jesus taught spiritual saving, not physical saving, for one thing. We need opposition, as sucky as it can be. It is by which a lot of GOoD is made manifest. We will get through it better if we explore and strengthen the kingdom of God within us.
There is no Jesus coming to rescue everyone in a second coming - and to believe it anyway is what a lot of people believed and were disappointed who cried, "Crucify him!" When asked WHEN the kingdom of God would come, Jesus explained, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, lo here or lo there. BEHOLD, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17
Think about it: Do you experience God anywhere but within you? Of course not - you experience God within you.
It is imperative for Christians to realize the need to do all we can to make this world as good as we can, instead of letting it go to hell, waiting for Jesus to come make it all better. Jesus taught spiritual saving, not physical saving, for one thing. We need opposition, as sucky as it can be. It is by which a lot of GOoD is made manifest. We will get through it better if we explore and strengthen the kingdom of God within us.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Okay, I can see that....
That’s the part that’s still confusing.
If his presence is, as you say, “is felt” than we have a manifestation of his presence. Yet Deeje (and I am assuming your Organization since you haven’t disagreed with her) claims Chirst's "presence" and "manifestation" are two separate events, and that this manifestation doesn’t happen until decades after Jesus's presence in 1914.
I just don’t see how that’s possible… Jesus having “presence” without any “manifestation” of this “presence” whatsoever. Without manifestation, there are absolutely no signs of his presence to look for. If there are signs to look for, then obviously there has been a manifestation of his presence.
Your organization states there were signs of Jesus’s presence, or Parousia, which they believe occurred in 1914. So if there were signs of his presence in 1914 his presence was manifest. Yet your Organization states his manifestation hasn’t happened yet and won’t happen until some unknown time into the future, which makes it all the more confusing.
If the manifestation hasn’t occurred then the presence could not have occurred in 1914. But if the presence has occurred then his presence must have been made manifest in some way, yet you claim the manifestation of his presence hasn’t occurred yet.
Once Jesus showed himself we definitely have a manifestation whose presence is felt as wickedness is brought to an end. So we have a manifestation and presence… they are one with the other as opposed to one without the other.
I still don’t see how anyone can reasonably view them as two different events separated by decades of time, nor do I see how you can claim that:
1. Jesus's "presence" occurred in 1914
2. His "presence" was manifest through signs in 1914 but
3. There was no "manifestation" with his "presence" because they are two separate events and
4. Any "manifestation" of his "presence"... which was made manifest through signs in 1914... won't occur until some time in the future.
2. His "presence" was manifest through signs in 1914 but
3. There was no "manifestation" with his "presence" because they are two separate events and
4. Any "manifestation" of his "presence"... which was made manifest through signs in 1914... won't occur until some time in the future.
In any event I do thank you for your response.
.... and thank you for your reply.
So, Jesus although an invisible spirit person guides or directs the Christian congregation today though unseen.
We know as John 14:19 says the world will behold Jesus No more. Not literally see Jesus any more.
These last days of badness (as described at 2 Timothy 3) I find linked in connection to the events or features of the composite sign Jesus gave us in Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 21's MAJOR fulfillment part.
So, first we have Jesus as head of the Christian congregation in the 1st century, and is Now.
Then, (and I think Jesus referred to Daniel) at Daniel 7:13 where we read about a future coming time of Jesus as ' Son of man ' (Revelation 1:7; Psalms 72:4-8 ). I think Jesus' reference to Daniel is found at Matthew 26:63-64.
Side note: I notice at Matthew 26:24 Jesus is also there now referred to as ' Son of man '.
Now, going past the starting time of Matthew 24:8 (start time of global trouble around WWI ) to the future 'Son of man ' time of Matthew 24:37-39 ties in with Jesus as being ' Son of man ' at the time of Matthew 25:31 (as also noted time frame at Matthew 16:27). A coming 'time of separation' to take place on Earth.
So, the coming ' time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 ' to take place on Earth is still future after the political turns on the religious world. That time frame has Not yet manifested itself. Jesus' followers still look for Matthew 25:31-33 to manifest itself, and then the great tribulation time of Revelation 7:14 to manifest itself, before Jesus takes the action as worded at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 when the executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of wickedness before the manifestation of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rule begins or starts to govern over Earth.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Yes, we also know that since Jesus is the head of the congregation, his head must be manifest in some way. The body cannot have a head that isn’t manifest. If the head isn’t manifest in some way then the Christian body may as well walk around headless.
It is the head’s “manifestations” that tell the legs to move, the hand to grasp, the knee to bend. The head controls the body and send electrical impulses, both conscious and unconscious of when it’s time to do this or that. That is how know the head is “manifest”.
Even if the head is “invisible” it will still send these “signs” or “manifestations” to the body.
Your doctrine claims the head is there but there won’t be any manifestation until sometime into the future. I see this as confusing and illogical.
There’s the problem again. You state there is a “composite sign”. Any type of sign, composite or otherwise, would be a manifestation of his presence and you claim that manifestation won’t happen until sometime in the future. So in one breath your Organization tells us there is no “composite sign” (manifestation) until later and then points to a manifestation (composite sign) that we nor they could possibly see because it hasn't happened yet.
Don’t forget…you also claim there is will be absolutely no manifestation that Jesus is head of the Christian congregation until sometime in the future. They are two separate events (separated by time) according to the Organization. So the head is “present” on the body but the head doesn’t work because it doesn’t manifest itself to the body nor to the world until later…centuries after the “presence” or "parousia" of the head.
It is only at this time (the future) you claim the head is both present and manifest.
More problems…You tell us WW1 is a “sign” or “manifestation” of Jesus’s “Presence” or “Parousia”, after telling us there will be no “sign” or “manifestation” of Jesus’s “Presence” or “Parousia” until sometime in the future.
Which is it?
Either there is a manifestation of his presence, like World War 1, or there is no manifestation of his presence until the future, which means World War 1 was not a sign of his "presence". Your doctrine claims title to both. You can’t claim there’s no manifestation of his Presence in one breath and then claim there was a manifestation of his Presence with the other. The two are mutually exclusive.
I have no problem with the establishment of Christ’s Kingdom sometime in the future. It’s a day we both look forward to. What I don’t understand is how you can have a “presence”, no sign or manifestation of that "presence", and then claim these are the “composite signs” of a "presence" you claimed would have no manifestation or sign to begin with.
It’s like saying you can have your cake and eat it too.