Let's Get Real

[metis]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1.Which religion is the right one?
2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?
3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?
4.How many deities are there?
5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

I'll save you time-- you can't do it. So, Let's Get Real.

If I say that our universe was created by the Cosmic Godzilla, with stars being his flaming spit-wads and the planets not being lit by His fiery breath, show objective evidence that I'm wrong. I've posed this before, and no one yet has been able to prove me wrong. Of course I can't prove myself right either. So, what am I saying?

Glad you asked. All religious beliefs are subjective, not objective. They're based on faith, not objective proofs. By and large, probably most of you will answer the questions above differently with no one being able to prove the others wrong. This is what makes life here at RF so exciting and frustrating-- no one can prove the others wrong, which is why we see endless debates here.

So, is believing in a religion/denomination wrong-headed? Not imo, but it can be as such is we use religion to badger others by claiming they believe in that which is wrong or "evil" or to ignore the reality that surrounds us. Religion, much like philosophy, can be used for enlightenment or as a set of blinders. We can use it to help people or hurt people. Science can provide us with better understanding the nuts & bolts as to how our universe works but it doesn't tell us how to behave-- or does it? That I'd like to discuss later on, probably tomorrow as I have a busy day today. Plus, I'd like to get your opinions on the above first. [be nice!]

Let me just finish off that this post is not anti-religion-- at least not in my case at least. Right now, I'm taking the "glass half-empty" approach, but at least tomorrow I'll be taking the "glass half-full" approach, and for good reason-- at least imo.

OK, you can now gather together to start the "I Hate Metis" club.

Thoughts thus far? Back tomorrow on this, so take care.

 

[Revoltingest]

1) None
2) None
3) None
4) None
5) None

 

[socharlie]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1.Which religion is the right one?
2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?
3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?
4.How many deities are there?
5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

I'll save you time-- you can't do it. So, Let's Get Real.

If I say that our universe was created by the Cosmic Godzilla, with stars being his flaming spit-wads and the planets not being lit by His fiery breath, show objective evidence that I'm wrong. I've posed this before, and no one yet has been able to prove me wrong. Of course I can't prove myself right either. So, what am I saying?

Glad you asked. All religious beliefs are subjective, not objective. They're based on faith, not objective proofs. By and large, probably most of you will answer the questions above differently with no one being able to prove the others wrong. This is what makes life here at RF so exciting and frustrating-- no one can prove the others wrong, which is why we see endless debates here.

So, is believing in a religion/denomination wrong-headed? Not imo, but it can be as such is we use religion to badger others by claiming they believe in that which is wrong or "evil" or to ignore the reality that surrounds us. Religion, much like philosophy, can be used for enlightenment or as a set of blinders. We can use it to help people or hurt people. Science can provide us with better understanding the nuts & bolts as to how our universe works but it doesn't tell us how to behave-- or does it? That I'd like to discuss later on, probably tomorrow as I have a busy day today. Plus, I'd like to get your opinions on the above first. [be nice!]

Let me just finish off that this post is not anti-religion-- at least not in my case at least. Right now, I'm taking the "glass half-empty" approach, but at least tomorrow I'll be taking the "glass half-full" approach, and for good reason-- at least imo.

OK, you can now gather together to start the "I Hate Metis" club.

Thoughts thus far? Back tomorrow on this, so take care.

any religion that accepts and insist on "the Golden Rule" is the right one.

 

[syo]

i like the questions

1.Which religion is the right one?

all. life is a puzzle and religions are it's pieces. life isn't a one-pieced puzzle, you gotta have all pieces to form the puzzle.

2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?

all. denominations are points of view in one religion. denominations bring variety in a religion.

3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?

all because they all have wisdom.

4.How many deities are there?

a lot. God, Vishnu, Zeus etc. many gods.

5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

who taught about love? that one. because love is the greatest teaching.

 

[shunyadragon]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1.Which religion is the right one?
2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?

In the absolute sense none, despite the claims of individual religions. I look at the religions and deominations based on their claims, and the relative sense on how they relate to those who believe differently.

3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?

Scriptures are scriptures that reflect the teachings and beliefs of those that wrote them at the time they were written. There value to me is only in the relative sense in how they relate to the continuum of the evolving spiritual nature of humanity over the millennia of our existence. I can easily discount the value of any single religion or denomination without considering the big picture.

4.How many deities are there?

Highly variable depending on the fallible human perspective of what a Deity is and how many there are. This also reflects the culture and time in history the scripture were written and the beliefs formed.

Personally I believe in strict Monotheism without compromise.

5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

This question is also compounded by the fallible human view described above. I believe they all reveal wisdom and knowledge of this world and worlds beyond ours. From my Buddhist side hanging my hat or 'hate' on one or the other exclusively is "clinging'' or disparaging one or the other in the illusions of ancient cultures, and the desire for self-identity and sense of community.

If I say that our universe was created by the Cosmic Godzilla, with stars being his flaming spit-wads and the planets not being lit by His fiery breath, show objective evidence that I'm wrong. I've posed this before, and no one yet has been able to prove me wrong. Of course I can't prove myself right either. So, what am I saying?

See above concerning the problems fallible human beliefs in God(s), other worlds, and ancient cultural paradigms.

At least your 'Cosmic Godzilla' can be documented with his Japanese cousin in relative recent fictional reality.

Glad you asked. All religious beliefs are subjective, not objective. They're based on faith, not objective proofs. By and large, probably most of you will answer the questions above differently with no one being able to prove the others wrong. This is what makes life here at RF so exciting and frustrating-- no one can prove the others wrong, which is why we see endless debates here.

Agree and to a certain extent. Yes the claims of religions are subjective there are objective aspects of religious beliefs and how and why they believe as they do. My view is the more absolute a religion defines their beliefs the less likely they are realistic in the sense of the more objective reality of our physical existence. To one degree or another ancient religions reject, hedge reluctantly, or only conditionally accept the objective nature of our physical reality.

So, is believing in a religion/denomination wrong-headed?

This depends on the claims of the different religions/denominations. Again, relationships outside the belief, the relative nature of beliefs, and how absolute their claims are represent important issues here. Most ancient religions take pretty absolute or exclusive view, and lack a relative view that takes into consideration the beliefs of others, and science.

The Baha'i Faith takes in a broader concept of spiritual and physical relationships over the millennia of human existence, and the relative validity of science as its knowledge evolves with time.

OK, you can now gather together to start the "I Hate Metis" club.

No, I would not do that,

 

[shunyadragon]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

I edited my response some for your benefit.

 

[Brickjectivity]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

My answers are too horrible to be posted.

 

[sayak83]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1.Which religion is the right one?
2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?
3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?
4.How many deities are there?
5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

I'll save you time-- you can't do it. So, Let's Get Real.

If I say that our universe was created by the Cosmic Godzilla, with stars being his flaming spit-wads and the planets not being lit by His fiery breath, show objective evidence that I'm wrong. I've posed this before, and no one yet has been able to prove me wrong. Of course I can't prove myself right either. So, what am I saying?

Glad you asked. All religious beliefs are subjective, not objective. They're based on faith, not objective proofs. By and large, probably most of you will answer the questions above differently with no one being able to prove the others wrong. This is what makes life here at RF so exciting and frustrating-- no one can prove the others wrong, which is why we see endless debates here.

So, is believing in a religion/denomination wrong-headed? Not imo, but it can be as such is we use religion to badger others by claiming they believe in that which is wrong or "evil" or to ignore the reality that surrounds us. Religion, much like philosophy, can be used for enlightenment or as a set of blinders. We can use it to help people or hurt people. Science can provide us with better understanding the nuts & bolts as to how our universe works but it doesn't tell us how to behave-- or does it? That I'd like to discuss later on, probably tomorrow as I have a busy day today. Plus, I'd like to get your opinions on the above first. [be nice!]

Let me just finish off that this post is not anti-religion-- at least not in my case at least. Right now, I'm taking the "glass half-empty" approach, but at least tomorrow I'll be taking the "glass half-full" approach, and for good reason-- at least imo.

OK, you can now gather together to start the "I Hate Metis" club.

Thoughts thus far? Back tomorrow on this, so take care.

1)The religions that make their believers better and more caring persons.
2) Same.
3) Same
4) As many as the believer needs to achieve inner happiness, peace and outer caring and compassion for others.
5) The ones who words make the believers lives better and make them more caring people are right.

I am sure one can objectively look at the actions of a believer to see if his/her faith is contributing to the ends mentioned in 1-5. If so then we have the evidence you require for that believer following that belief.

There, I have done it. Time for you to get Real, maybe?

If that belief helps you achieve the ends 1—5, as judged by your actions in life, then they are not wrong. Otherwise it is.

I am not interested in proving others wrong. How does it help me or you a better more caring person by doing this? Unless your beliefs or actions are harmful, the action of trying to prove you wrong is itself harmful.

 

[Valjean]

Glad you asked. All religious beliefs are subjective, not objective. They're based on faith, not objective proofs. By and large, probably most of you will answer the questions above differently with no one being able to prove the others wrong. This is what makes life here at RF so exciting and frustrating-- no one can prove the others wrong, which is why we see endless debates here.

So, is believing in a religion/denomination wrong-headed? Not imo, but it can be as such is we use religion to badger others by claiming they believe in that which is wrong or "evil" or to ignore the reality that surrounds us. Religion, much like philosophy, can be used for enlightenment or as a set of blinders. We can use it to help people or hurt people. Science can provide us with better understanding the nuts & bolts as to how our universe works but it doesn't tell us how to behave-- or does it? That I'd like to discuss later on, probably tomorrow as I have a busy day today. Plus, I'd like to get your opinions on the above first. [be nice!]

Let me just finish off that this post is not anti-religion-- at least not in my case at least. Right now, I'm taking the "glass half-empty" approach, but at least tomorrow I'll be taking the "glass half-full" approach, and for good reason-- at least imo.

OK, you can now gather together to start the "I Hate Metis" club.

Thoughts thus far? Back tomorrow on this, so take care.

This is why I see the epistemic default position -- withholding belief pending actual evidence -- as the most reasonable position.

 

[Revoltingest]

My answers are too horrible to be posted.

Didn't stop me.

 

[SalixIncendium]

1)The religions that make their believers better and more caring persons.
2) Same.
3) Same
4) As many as the believer needs to achieve inner happiness, peace and outer caring and compassion for others.
5) The ones who words make the believers lives better and make them more caring people are right.

I am sure one can objectively look at the actions of a believer to see if his/her faith is contributing to the ends mentioned in 1-5. If so then we have the evidence you require for that believer following that belief.

There, I have done it. Time for you to get Real, maybe?

If that belief helps you achieve the ends 1—5, as judged by your actions in life, then they are not wrong. Otherwise it is.

I am not interested in proving others wrong. How does it help me or you a better more caring person by doing this? Unless your beliefs or actions are harmful, the action of trying to prove you wrong is itself harmful.

My answer is essentially the same, though I would amend answer 1 to add "better and more caring persons who are tolerant of other's rights to believe as they will, so long these beliefs don't infringe upon the beliefs or well being of another."

 

[suncowiam]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1.Which religion is the right one?
2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?
3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?
4.How many deities are there?
5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

I'll save you time-- you can't do it. So, Let's Get Real.

If I say that our universe was created by the Cosmic Godzilla, with stars being his flaming spit-wads and the planets not being lit by His fiery breath, show objective evidence that I'm wrong. I've posed this before, and no one yet has been able to prove me wrong. Of course I can't prove myself right either. So, what am I saying?

Glad you asked. All religious beliefs are subjective, not objective. They're based on faith, not objective proofs. By and large, probably most of you will answer the questions above differently with no one being able to prove the others wrong. This is what makes life here at RF so exciting and frustrating-- no one can prove the others wrong, which is why we see endless debates here.

So, is believing in a religion/denomination wrong-headed? Not imo, but it can be as such is we use religion to badger others by claiming they believe in that which is wrong or "evil" or to ignore the reality that surrounds us. Religion, much like philosophy, can be used for enlightenment or as a set of blinders. We can use it to help people or hurt people. Science can provide us with better understanding the nuts & bolts as to how our universe works but it doesn't tell us how to behave-- or does it? That I'd like to discuss later on, probably tomorrow as I have a busy day today. Plus, I'd like to get your opinions on the above first. [be nice!]

Let me just finish off that this post is not anti-religion-- at least not in my case at least. Right now, I'm taking the "glass half-empty" approach, but at least tomorrow I'll be taking the "glass half-full" approach, and for good reason-- at least imo.

OK, you can now gather together to start the "I Hate Metis" club.

Thoughts thus far? Back tomorrow on this, so take care.

You've already made enemies before your post, so what the heck?

 

[suncowiam]

1)The religions that make their believers better and more caring persons.
2) Same.
3) Same
4) As many as the believer needs to achieve inner happiness, peace and outer caring and compassion for others.
5) The ones who words make the believers lives better and make them more caring people are right.

I am sure one can objectively look at the actions of a believer to see if his/her faith is contributing to the ends mentioned in 1-5. If so then we have the evidence you require for that believer following that belief.

There, I have done it. Time for you to get Real, maybe?

If that belief helps you achieve the ends 1—5, as judged by your actions in life, then they are not wrong. Otherwise it is.

I am not interested in proving others wrong. How does it help me or you a better more caring person by doing this? Unless your beliefs or actions are harmful, the action of trying to prove you wrong is itself harmful.

The same religion can make another person more hateful, fearful and disgusting. So then what?

I'm all for the happiness, inner peace part. I'm just against all the hate, bigotry and ignorance that also comes from religion. The greater good to me is stopping the destruction.

 

[PureX]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1. Which religion is the right one?

The one that works best for the person, asking.

2. Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?

The one that works best for the person, asking.

3. Which set of scriptures are the right one?

The ones that make the most sense to the person, asking.

4. How many deities are there?

All of them.

5. Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

Whichever one helps you the most is the right one for you.

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

Objectivity is an intellectual fantasy, and no one else really cares about what you need to be proven to you.

I'll save you time-- you can't do it. So, Let's Get Real.

OK, so why demand what you already know you can't be given?

If I say that our universe was created by the Cosmic Godzilla, with stars being his flaming spit-wads and the planets not being lit by His fiery breath, show objective evidence that I'm wrong. I've posed this before, and no one yet has been able to prove me wrong. Of course I can't prove myself right either. So, what am I saying?

Nothing of any value, to anyone, that I can see.

All religious beliefs are subjective, not objective.

All human perception, and conception, is subjective, not objective. So why are you demanding objectivity when you know that's an impossibility?

This is what makes life here at RF so exciting and frustrating-- no one can prove the others wrong, which is why we see endless debates here.

The endless debates are because people still want to try even though it's not possible.

Most of us, however, understand that "proofs" have nothing to do with it. Faith is not about what anyone thinks they can prove. It's about acting on what we hope to be true, when we don't know it to be so, because we gain some positive result from our doing so.

So, is believing in a religion/denomination wrong-headed? Not imo, but it can be as such is we use religion to badger others by claiming they believe in that which is wrong or "evil" or to ignore the reality that surrounds us. Religion, much like philosophy, can be used for enlightenment or as a set of blinders. We can use it to help people or hurt people. Science can provide us with better understanding the nuts & bolts as to how our universe works but it doesn't tell us how to behave-- or does it? That I'd like to discuss later on, probably tomorrow as I have a busy day today. Plus, I'd like to get your opinions on the above first. [be nice!]

A hammer can be used to build a home, or it can be used to bust open someone's head. That says nothing about the hammer except that it's a useful tool.

 

[sayak83]

The same religion can make another person more hateful, fearful and disgusting. So then what?

I'm all for the happiness, inner peace part. I'm just against all the hate, bigotry and ignorance that also comes from religion. The greater good to me is stopping the destruction.

Then that religion is wrong for that person. Same thing with food no? Some find some foods healthy, others find that the same food makes them sick.

Also some are just terrible at cooking no matter how good the cookbook.

 

[sun rise]

1.Which religion is the right one?
2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?
3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?
4.How many deities are there?
5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

1/2. All and none. All are equally right and all are equally far from Truth.
3. All and none. They are equal in having great passages and equal in having distortions and obsolete formulations.
4/5:
Does Khuda live in the mosque?
Then who lives everywhere?
Is Ram in idols and holy ground?
Have you looked and found him there?
Hari in the East, Allah in the West—

so you like to dream.
Search in the heart, in the heart alone:
there live Ram and Karim!
Which is false, Koran or Veda?
False is the darkened view.

It's one, one in every body!
How did you make it two?
Every man and woman born,
they're all your forms, says Kabir.
I'm Ram-and-Allah's foolish baby,
he's my guru and pir.

About "objectively-derived evidence": "The human heart can see what's hidden to the eyes, and the heart knows things that the mind does not begin to understand."

 

[suncowiam]

Then that religion is wrong for that person. Same thing with food no? Some find some foods healthy, others find that the same food makes them sick.

Also some are just terrible at cooking no matter how good the cookbook.

I do not think religion is like cooking. If a person uses religion for hate and destruction, who's authority is it to suggest this is wrong or right? Definitely not yours or mine. All we can offer are our opinions. I think the one authority that can answer this is God, but God tends to be quiet on these issues. Or the people that relays Gods' messages tend to contradict each other.

 

[George-ananda]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1.Which religion is the right one?
2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?
3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?
4.How many deities are there?
5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

I'll save you time-- you can't do it. So, Let's Get Real.

Are you sure your argument holds for more universalist religious thinkers? It just sounds like an attack on fundamentalists.

 

[Father Heathen]

By the time I finish this post, I will undoubtedly make many enemies, but here it goes anyway, starting off with a series of questions.

1.Which religion is the right one?
2.Which denomination/branch in that religion is the right one?
3.Which set of scriptures are the right one?
4.How many deities are there?
5.Who is right: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, the Buddha, etc.?

1. None
2. None
3. None
4. Indeterminate
5. None

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

My answers to the questions aren't due to evidence, but rather due to the lack of it. But even in the absence of evidence, we can still determine whether or not something is coherent, consistent, and rational.

 

[Quintessence]

Now, notice that I asked you your opinions, but what I want you to do is to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate your beliefs.

I'll save you time-- you can't do it.

Are you certain of that? I'm not.

I don't find it difficult to provide objectively-derived evidence to substantiate my beliefs and practices (yes, practices - let us please not overlook the fact that many religions are far more about what you do than what goes on inside your head). The thing is, I can only do that if someone asks a proper question. A question like "which religion is the right one" is simply a bad question. It's a bad question because it assumes a singular answer, but it's also a nonsensical question because it begs another: right for what? It is better to ask something like "which religions provide helpful tools for personal relaxation?" That is easy to answer substantively.

If folks started asking better questions about religions, they'd easily get more substantive answers. Alas, folks frequently ask bad questions about religions. Folks frequently ask bad questions just in general, come to think of it. Oh well.

Maybe I'll make a thread with tips for asking good questions...