How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

What is my motivation for trust?

That question on its own is self explanatory.

Trustworthyness and Trufullness are the foundations of humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That question on its own is self explanatory.

Trustworthyness and Trufullness are the foundations of humanity.

Regards Tony

Why trust?

My shortest question in the whole thread.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why trust?

My shortest question in the whole thread.

No interaction can happen without Trust. Everything we do contains the element of trust.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No interaction can happen without Trust. Everything we do contains the element of trust.

Regards Tony

That would mean even though there is no pencil you would trust there is because you want to write?

Even if you have heaps, the question is the same. If you don't have heaps are you trusting that you do?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That would mean even though there is no pencil you would trust there is because you want to write?

I do not see that as a foundation of Trust as I would go look for one. As I want to write, which requires a pencil, I already know the pencils exist. I just need effort to go look and then the Trust is I will find one.

Even if you have heaps, the question is the same. If you don't have heaps are you trusting that you do?

I do not see that analogy as a foundation of Trust. The Trust is, that when I need more, I will find them when I make the effort to go shopping for them.

Why trust?

You are here, you can Trust that. Now if we ask how did we get here there are two avenues to explore. Science and Religion both explore this question so now we need to see what each of these say.

Which one do we place our Trust in to give the answer?

If it is Science - How do we Trust what they say is the answer to this?

If Religion - How do we Trust what they say is the answer to this?

As you can see, the path just to the question of knowing who and why you are, requires us to choose our Trustworthy source. Then determine how much Trust we give to that Source and each explanation.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

In this analogy, the pencil is not there. Yes, my belief does not change whether there is a pencil. Since there isnt anything there, the only thing I can logically reject is the idea there is one. There are many ideas we reject based on facts we observed ourselves.

So, given the example (what you have read only) and fact nothing is there, how can I assume something is there to take your view into consideration?

To extend these ideas a little further consider the night sky on a clear night. Are we to conclude that the sun does not exist because we no longer see it? Of course not. We know the sun will return.

Is the sun of yesterday the same sun of today or is it different?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

To extend these ideas a little further consider the night sky on a clear night. Are we to conclude that the sun does not exist because we no longer see it? Of course not. We know the sun will return.

Is the sun of yesterday the same sun of today or is it different?

What I'm asking is more you are saying the sun rises in the north and falls in the south. After observation and study the sun rises in the east in the western side of the world and falls in the west.

In the pencil example, we cant change the context and point (saying a pencil is there) to reflect your point. If the sun does not exists and you say it does, you (in my opinion) would be wrong.

Im sticking to you saying something exists when I know it does not and asking you the logic in why and how you believe something exists that after I have observed and concluded the facts, I found your statement false.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see trust as a foundation. I see it more I dont have a pencil. If I want to write, I would need to find one. While there are many people who "say" they have pencils, I actually see they do not. I use what I find and I write with it. If someone offered me something I know they dont have, I find it illogical to change my mind just because the other believes something I do not. I respect the person if they support my wish to write with my own pencil. I find it rude if Im expected to use theirs.

It could also be a culture clash. Americans value individuality and progress to a goal rather than already having the goal and living it without some type of action and incline results.

I do not see that as a foundation of Trust as I would go look for one. As I want to write, which requires a pencil, I already know the pencils exist. I just need effort to go look and then the Trust is I will find one.

I do not see that analogy as a foundation of Trust. The Trust is, that when I need more, I will find them when I make the effort to go shopping for them.

This conflicts with already having pencils you dont need to shop for. Id assume the first statement is what you are saying?

You are here, you can Trust that. Now if we ask how did we get here there are two avenues to explore. Science and Religion both explore this question so now we need to see what each of these say.

I dont split the two. Science is part of my worldview and that worldview involves science. Karma is not "religious" for example neither is rebirth. Its a part of life scientific, religious, spiritual, and personal experience and observation.

Which one do we place our Trust in to give the answer?

Both. They are one.

If it is Science - How do we Trust what they say is the answer to this?

We cant. We cant see in other peoples' eyes just your own (culture clash)

If Religion - How do we Trust what they say is the answer to this?

Personal experience, observation, community ties,

And your foundation (in my opinion) trust.

As you can see, the path just to the question of knowing who and why you are, requires us to choose our Trustworthy source. Then determine how much Trust we give to that Source and each explanation.

We have difference of opinion. There are a lot of trustworthy sources. Pens, pencils, chalks, chocoal, to name a few. Instead of finding One source find the source that works for you. Dont exclude all other sources as false just because you pick the source you know is true. Thats the difference betwen your belief and hindu and buddhist for example.

We say that everyone has their own trustworthy source. We dont say what others believe is false because your source is true because thats how you see it.

So when you see diversity, you should (imo) automatically assume everyone has their own trust worthy source. If not, its not diversity, its unity. One goal. One foundation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see trust as a foundation.

As we do.

I see it more I dont have a pencil. If I want to write, I would need to find one.

Yes

While there are many people who "say" they have pencils, I actually see they do not.

Then you are saying they lie, you do not trust what they have said.

I use what I find and I write with it.

Great, that is our choice

If someone offered me something I know they dont have, I find it illogical to change my mind just because the other believes something I do not.

Again your choice to call them out for a lie. In the original analogy, the offer is only given in case you were interested, if not you are free to not pursue or reject the offer. No mind change required.

I respect the person if they support my wish to write with my own pencil. I find it rude if Im expected to use theirs.

Keep using your own way, the offer comes with no obligation.

It could also be a culture clash. Americans value individuality and progress to a goal rather than already having the goal and living it without some type of action and incline results.

I do not think culture is the barrier.

Both. They are one.

As offered, Science and Religion do have the same source.

We have difference of opinion. There are a lot of trustworthy sources. Pens, pencils, chalks, chocoal, to name a few. Instead of finding There are a lot of trustworthy sources. Pens, pencils, chalks, chocoal, to name a few. Dont exclude all other sources as false just because you pick the source you know is true. Thats the difference betwen your belief and hindu and buddhist for example.We say that everyone has their own trustworthy source. We dont say what others believe is false because your source is true because thats how you see it.So when you see diversity, you should (imo) automatically assume everyone has their own trust worthy source. If not, its not diversity, its unity. One goal. One foundation.

Again this is twisted round to use what has been said as a way forward to say that we do not see that as the way forward, very strange Carlita.

"We have difference of opinion" - Yes

"There are a lot of trustworthy sources. Pens, pencils, chalks, chocoal, to name a few." - Yes

"Dont exclude all other sources as false just because you pick the source you know is true." - Yes The whole Great being Thread

"Thats the difference between your belief and Hindu and Buddhist for example." The point is who made those differences?

"We say that everyone has their own trustworthy source." Yes

"We dont say what others believe is false because your source is true because thats how you see it." We do not say that either.

"So when you see diversity, you should (imo) automatically assume everyone has their own trust worthy source". We know that they have a Trustworthy Source, the Great Beings.

"If not, its not diversity, its unity." So now we can confirm we have a Unity in our Diversity, once we know we all have a trustworthy source.

'One goal. One foundation." - Now there is the purpose and wisdom of all the Great Beings.

With that Carlita, Please just write with your own pencil. Forget the offer.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As we do.

Yes

Then you are saying they lie, you do not trust what they have said.

Great, that is our choice

Again your choice to call them out for a lie. In the original analogy, the offer is only given in case you were interested, if not you are free to not pursue or reject the offer. No mind change required.

Keep using your own way, the offer comes with no obligation.

I do not think culture is the barrier.

As offered, Science and Religion do have the same source.


Again this is twisted round to use what has been said as a way forward to say that we do not see that as the way forward, very strange Carlita.

"We have difference of opinion" - Yes

"There are a lot of trustworthy sources. Pens, pencils, chalks, chocoal, to name a few." - Yes

"Dont exclude all other sources as false just because you pick the source you know is true." - Yes The whole Great being Thread

"Thats the difference between your belief and Hindu and Buddhist for example." The point is who made those differences?

"We say that everyone has their own trustworthy source." Yes

"We dont say what others believe is false because your source is true because thats how you see it." We do not say that either.

"So when you see diversity, you should (imo) automatically assume everyone has their own trust worthy source". We know that they have a Trustworthy Source, the Great Beings.

"If not, its not diversity, its unity." So now we can confirm we have a Unity in our Diversity, once we know we all have a trustworthy source.

'One goal. One foundation." - Now there is the purpose and wisdom of all the Great Beings.

With that Carlita, Please just write with your own pencil. Forget the offer.

Regards Tony

This is a twist in tone. What happened?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is a twist in tone. What happened?

Not a thing, You do not sleep By this time of day I have been up 15 hrs and my replies will be short.

No change, just what I see in your reply. What do you see that was a change? Maybe the comments in reference to a lie?

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I must have hit a nerve or something.

As we do.

Yes

I'm offering my opinion as you offered yours. Nothing wrong with that.

Stay positive....

Then you are saying they lie, you do not trust what they have said.

No. I did not say you (etc) are liars. I do not see negativity in differences of opinion. You see something I believe is not there. Nothing wrong with that,

right?

Great, that is our choice

Just expressing how I see things in contrast with yours.

We don't need to agree to have a decent conversation.

Again your choice to call them out for a lie. In the original analogy, the offer is only given in case you were interested, if not you are free to not pursue or reject the offer. No mind change required.

I said to me it is illogical not a lie.

I did not say in the analogy anyone forced me to. It is as written/typed.

You are putting motives where there are none. Read it as written.

Keep using your own way, the offer comes with no obligation.

Never said it did. Christians tend to do that. I never got that from Bahai other than Lover and you.

Decent conversations does not mean we need to agree with each other.

I do not think culture is the barrier.

Are you western culture?

Most countries have cultural barriers with others. It's the nature of differences in language, religion, customs, and lifestyle. It is not religious in nature.

As offered, Science and Religion do have the same source.

I guess. I personally has nothing to do with you don't separate the two. They are one.

Again this is twisted round to use what has been said as a way forward to say that we do not see that as the way forward, very strange Carlita.

No. You seem you are insulted that I disagree there is a pencil in your hand. Conversations can't work if you are offended when someone disagrees and offers an opinion opposite of your own.

With that Carlita, Please just write with your own pencil. Forget the offer.

I hope you read this because I think I hit a nerve or something. Sometimes you snap a little or completely ignore my posts but this one threw me off guard. That's okay. It's four in the morning and you got me out of my grieving period. I had to take a deep breathe and really think of why you react like this.

Diversity comes with friction. Bahaullah wanted to help with that friction to build world peace both greater and lesser.

Follow his example and our conversations would be better.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not a thing, You do not sleep By this time of day I have been up 15 hrs and my replies will be short.

No change, just what I see in your reply. What do you see that was a change? Maybe the comments in reference to a lie?

Regards Tony

I'm in the middle of crying and I can't sleep (aka I'm grieving). You helped me out of it a bit, actually. I wouldn't have replied if you didn't have that tone of "voice." It would have probably kept me up since I don't like negativity. It can keep me up for hours.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's okay. It's four in the morning and you got me out of my grieving period. I had to take a deep breathe and really think of why you react like this.

I like it you found the positive.

I do not see my replies as coming from the base of being insulted but adressing what you said.

So I offer a pencil knowing I have one. You say I do not have one, I say fine I will leave that with you. Who offered the insult?

Would not the reply be thank you I do not use that brand I have my own?

The pencil conversation has killed my attention span and sanity. ADHD has kicked in.

Can we just say I put God in my life you do not. We promise that we will be good to each other, Unity in our Diversity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm in the middle of crying and I can't sleep (aka I'm grieving). You helped me out of it a bit, actually. I wouldn't have replied if you didn't have that tone of "voice." It would have probably kept me up since I don't like negativity. It can keep me up for hours.

Grieving is a good thing and much needed process. I offer all my best.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg I'll leave you with this. It's your choice to find negativity where none is intended.

“If ye be aware of a certain truth”, Bahá’u’lláh has stated, “if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and goodwill. If it be accepted, if it fulfill its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him.”2 Bahá’u’lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14

“And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys.” [Qur’an: Chapter 31, Verse 19]

“I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning” […] [Sahih Muslim].

361. Good is restraint in the body; good is restraint in speech; good is restraint in thought. Restraint everywhere is good. The monk restrained in every way is freed from all suffering.

362. He who has control over his hands, feet and tongue; who is fully controlled, delights in inward development, is absorbed in meditation, keeps to himself and is contented — him do people call a monk. Dhp XXVAcharya Buddharakkhita

One with an uncontrolled mind cannot have spiritual intelligence, one devoid of spiritual intelligence never meditates on the Ultimate Truth and for one who never meditates on the Ultimate Truth there is no peace and for one destitute of peace where is happiness? (Bhagavad)

Think I'm missing one. Anyway,

Before you speak with me keep this in mind. Don't like negativity and ask for clarification if you take offense at something or take a break then reply or not at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I like it you found the positive.

I do not see my replies as coming from the base of being insulted but adressing what you said.

So I offer a pencil knowing I have one. You say I do not have one, I say fine I will leave that with you. Who offered the insult?

Would not the reply be thank you I do not use that brand I have my own?

The pencil conversation has killed my attention span and sanity. ADHD has kicked in.

Can we just say I put God in my life you do not. We promise that we will be good to each other, Unity in our Diversity.

Regards Tony

ADHD. That sounds fun. Seizures have wonderful ADD symptoms depending on the part of the brain it likes to pop up in (aka understand)

Anyway,

I'm not saying you are lying about god. I'm just saying I don't believe there is one. So, to me, it is illogical to offer me anything because I can't "see" what you offer.

Kinda like you have what you believe is a cake in your plate. You offer me a piece and I see nothing. Then you say it's your choice to eat it or reject it. Then I say, well, hey, if I saw a cake, I would eat it, since I don't, how can I?

How can I reject or receive an offer that to me does not exist?

It seemed you didn't want to talk about it directly. I asked adrian instead.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How can I reject or receive an offer that to me does not exist?

I thought I had answered that a few times.

The two opposing thoughts can not become a cause of conflict, a debate is not conflict provided we say cordial about it.

To some God Exists, then to them we can not say God does not exist.

To Some God does not Exist, to them we can not say God does exist.

To find out what position one has in this matter the original conversation is this OP.

The responses raised questions and points of view, questions we asked are answered and the points of view further explored.

Hope you find your reconciliation in your grief.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see no reason to add to that observation of those who say god does not exist tell you that you cannot say that he does. I have nevee got to have a conversation about god not existing with a theist you guys expect us to talk about god's existence. To me, it works to ways. If I can say god exists for sake of discussion I dont understand why a believer cant see the opposite for sake of discussion. Its balanced. Theists arent the victims.

I thought I had answered that a few times.

The two opposing thoughts can not become a cause of conflict, a debate is not conflict provided we say cordial about it.

To some God Exists, then to them we can not say God does not exist.

To Some God does not Exist, to them we can not say God does exist.

To find out what position one has in this matter the original conversation is this OP.

The responses raised questions and points of view, questions we asked are answered and the points of view further explored.

Hope you find your reconciliation in your grief.

Regards Tony

Edit: I dont understand the answer to my question. I will flip it. If I said does exist and I say he does not, what would be my motivation to get you to see something you obviously cannot see. (Not a question) I see no logic in my saying you have rejected god's existence when there is nothing for you to reject. God does not exist to you because of what you know and observed as facts. In order to make god pop out of thin air to you, I cant offer.

Thats illogical and a waste of time unless you are open to the idea of it without needing to believe it. If I made an expectation that you need to believe first before talking about god, the conversation is a dead end.

I answered my question but I made it to where I believed in god and you dont. I cant answer it knowing god does not exist. I can play with the idea. You want me to know god exists and if I dont I rejected god.

That, I find illogical

Unless you can explain the logic of offering something I cannot see?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

With grief, it takes time. I'm learning more about rebirth through this experience. Nothing disappears. The mind and body together brings life but the body decays when there is no more awareness in the decaying body. Where that awareness goes, I dont know. The Buddha says we a reborn into the same awareness because we are still attached to our worldly senses and possesions. We have to "work out" our karma. That makes sense.

Whats interesting is I helped people go back to god when tbeir faith faultered. I supported people and friends when I went to church with them as they needed someone to talk with. I did this because I knew it was not about me. If they dont believe The Dharma, my offers will not help them. Instead, I talked about Their belief. Supported them in Their faith.

It makes a better conversation when offers turn into conversations of support without feeling we need to compromise our faith to talk about others. Learning curve.