And it all went downhill from there.
Thank you Siti,
I hope to find time tomorrow to respond.
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And it all went downhill from there.
Key points from my previous two posts:
1. The Apostle John almost certainly did not write the Book of Revelation - he was almost certainly dead a century before it was written...
2. The Apostle John may have begun, with the assistance of the other disciples (Andrew for example) to compile an account of Jesus' life before he died, but it is unlikely that the Gospel of John we have now contains much that could be reliably identified as his testimony...
3. The Apostle John may have written letters to congregations is Asia Minor (Turkey) that were subsequently incorporated into the Book of Revelation
4. It is much more likely that another John - known to Papias as "the Presbyter" or "elder" wrote the 3 letters bearing John's name
5. It is almost certainly either this "Presbyter" John or another John that recorded the visions in Revelation
6. All that means that all the "prophecies" regarding Christ's return - including the ones Baha'is interpret as indicating Baha'u'llah's appearance - might have been written (or purported to have been written) BEFORE the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 CE, which means...
7. There is no basis for interpreting the scriptures to be indicating (either by divine inspiration or human deviousness) any future 'spiritual' or 'literal' fulfillment of the resurrection (or baptism, sacrifice, etc. etc.) beyond the first century - whether they were writing prophecy in advance or after the event, they were writing about stuff that happened in the 1st century and established the basis for the transfer of God's favour from the physical temple to the spiritual hearts of Christians. Christ was resurrected and returned in 70CE by becoming the all-conquering King in the heart and mind of the Christian Church.
And it all went downhill from there.
Could you translate that into English?did I say something?
It we get the upgraded version,with the New Standard interpretation, as viewed by the intellectual higher secular echelon as quoted by our chameleon Christian, the famous Bart E. -- it simply means he came in second
You have no competitionCould you translate that into English?
WHEW!You have no competition
Adrian, I thought you said the Olivet discourse was symbolic? Revelation certainly is - so is Daniel...So Christ did not return in the first century AD but much later. We're heading off on a tangent away from the main topic. Am I to presume you don't believe Christ literally rose from the dead, appeared in the flesh to His disciples, and ascended to into the sky?
Adrian, I thought you said the Olivet discourse was symbolic? Revelation certainly is - so is Daniel...
...in that case, on what basis do you interpret the "times of the Gentiles" to be a literal passage of time during which the natural Jews were prevented from returning to their "Holy Land"?
This is the key problem I have with Baha'i interpretations of the Bible - you guys often speak with forked tongue trying to have the same passage as entirely spiritual/symbolic for one argument and physical/literal for another.
Anyway, what I personally believe about the resurrection is not nearly as relevant to the current topic as what I (and you and others) believe the Gospel writers intended it to mean.
I am pretty sure that they intended it to be taken as a literal physical resurrection to life (signifying the conquest of the 'last enemy') and a spiritual ascension into heaven which was marked by his faithful followers witnessing a vision - much as a few of them had previously at the transfiguration. So in that sense, the ascension was a mystic experience of the disciples, but the resurrection was real. There are precedents for God taking physical humans and making them disappear without trace - so no problem about what happened to Jesus' resurrected body after the ascension.
PS - there are no prophecies in the "Sermon on the Mount" - I presume you were still referring to the Olivet discourse, but if you are attempting to overturn 2000 years of Christian understanding of scripture, you really ought to be careful with your references and terminology.
So is the 'temple' in the Olivet discourse and Revelation the physical temple in Jerusalem or a spiritual condition to which Christians (and presumably after them, Baha'is) can attain? Please just answer that question with a straight answer - physical or spiritual?The Olivet discourse is widely recognised as being eschatological too and some sources refer to it as a mini apocalypse.
Matthew 24, Christian Eschatology and The Olivet Discourse
The Time of the Gentiles is mentioned in both the Olivet discourse (Luke 21:24) and Revelations (Revelation 11:1-2). The land that God promised Abraham is very important to the jews as you know.
The Baha'is are like everyone else here, and trying our best to communicate. We often fall short. We don't have forked tongues. The Olivet Discourse has passages that can be taken literally as well as those that should be taken symbolically. What is required is careful study of the text.
If you don't believe in the resurrectiion then do you think the gospel writers were trying to deliberately mislead their audience? If we are to have a conversation about the resurrection what you personally believe is important.
My understanding of the gospels is a work in progress. Thats why I'm here.
The gospel of Matthew as I understand it, is written around five discourses of Christ, the final one being the Olivet discourse delivered on the Mount of Olives in the week leading to Christ's death as recorded in chapters 24 and 25.
So is the 'temple' in the Olivet discourse and Revelation the physical temple in Jerusalem or a spiritual condition to which Christians (and presumably after them, Baha'is) can attain? Please just answer that question with a straight answer - physical or spiritual?
Right - so there was (has been) no physical temple since 70AD. Revelation 21:22 refers to "no temple" - I was more interested in the temple that John was told to measure Revelation 11 - this is more pertinent to the question at hand because it also relates to the "two witnesses" and the times of the Gentiles (1260 days and all that) and thereby, to the topic of the resurrection. So is the temple in Revelation 11 the physical temple in Jerusalem or some symbolic reference to something else? It surely can't be the heavenly one can it - in what sense could the heavenly temple be "measured"? In what sense could the heavenly temple's courtyards be given to the "Gentiles" to "tread underfoot"? It certainly looks like the temple in Matthew 24 and the temple in Revelation 11 are the same thing - don't you agree?The temple that Jesus refers (Matthew 24:1-2) to is the second temple that was destroyed in 70 AD.
The temple in revelation 21:22 refers to the Lamb (a messianic reference) so spiritual.
Right - so there was (has been) no physical temple since 70AD. Revelation 21:22 refers to "no temple" - I was more interested in the temple that John was told to measure Revelation 11 - this is more pertinent to the question at hand because it also relates to the "two witnesses" and the times of the Gentiles (1260 days and all that) and thereby, to the topic of the resurrection. So is the temple in Revelation 11 the physical temple in Jerusalem or some symbolic reference to something else? It surely can't be the heavenly one can it - in what sense could the heavenly temple be "measured"? In what sense could the heavenly temple's courtyards be given to the "Gentiles" to "tread underfoot"? It certainly looks like the temple in Matthew 24 and the temple in Revelation 11 are the same thing - don't you agree?
More obfuscation Adrian. Are the temples in Matthew 24 and Revelation 11 the same thing or not?None of this refers directly to a literal resurrection IMHO.
The third temple in revelation is not 'no temple' but the Christ Himself. Jesus the Christ was a son of Israel but was rejected by His own people and given to the gentiles. The measurements of the courtyard refers to Jerusalem, without the temple.
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Jesus identifies the temple with His body.
Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.
When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
John 2:18-22
Jesus as the Fulfillment of the Temple in the Gospel of John
This is not literally the body of Jesus but the Body of Christ (community of faithful believers). There are many references to this in the NT.
How is the church the Body of Christ?
More obfuscation Adrian. Are the temples in Matthew 24 and Revelation 11 the same thing or not?
OK - so I'm getting that you are saying it is not the same as the temple in Matthew 24?Revelation 11:1-2 isn't literally about the second temple but uses the temple imagery as a metaphor to convey a prophetic message.
OK - so I'm getting that you are saying it is not the same as the temple in Matthew 24?
The temple in Matthew 24 was the literal 2nd temple that was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE - yes?
And the parallel account of Jesus' prophecy in Luke 21:24 links this to the time during which "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." - almost identical to the phraseology used in Revelation 11:2 where the courtyard of the temple is left unmeasured "for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
How can these passages not be referring to the same thing?
If they are referring to the same thing and it is - as it seems in Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 - the physical second temple in Jerusalem and the worship rendered therein - then Revelation 11 presumably must also have been fulfilled in 1st century, mustn't it? Because that temple no longer existed after 70 CE, did it? It makes no sense to apply it to the 6th century AD, much less to 1843, 1914 or the 21st century because the Jerusalem temple was long gone by then. The two witnesses in Revelation were also features that were contemporaneous with the 'last days' of the second temple. If that's not the case, then the clear and rather obvious parallels between Jesus' eschatology in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and that of the author of Revelation 11 is just an irrelevant coincidence? That seems highly unlikely to me.
Certainly there is a definite link between the two witnesses and the resurrection - but I think the most likely scenario is that the Bible writers intended the account to have the following features:
1. A literal, physical, bodily resurrection of Christ which though real was also a symbolic enactment of the more general spiritual 'resurrection' - symbolized in Revelation by the resurrection of the 'two witnesses'
2. A literal physical destruction of the old (second) temple which was also a symbolic enactment of the transfer of divine favor from natural Israel with its capital in the Holy Land to 'spiritual Israel' with its capital as the "Jerusalem above" - the heavenly city in which Christ - as you say - served as the temple.
But all of that happened within the time of "this generation" - the contemporaneous group of Jesus' followers who had heard his words at first hand.
I am not saying this is what really happened - I am saying this is what the Bible writers intended to say had happened.
To suggest that they had something far future in mind is preposterous IMO.
They fully expected that Jesus would "at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel" (Acts of the Apostles 1:6) - Jesus had repeatedly urged them to be watchful and to expect the events he prophesied to happen at any moment.
Many Christians believe Jesus was crucified and literally rose from the dead. An empty tomb and the appearance of Jesus before many as recorded in the gospels are cited as irrefutable proofs by conservative Christians.
Dr Bart Ehrhart, Christian and biblical scholar has argued:
'Even if we want to believe in the resurrection of Jesus, that belief is a theological belief. You can’t prove the resurrection. It’s not susceptible to historical evidence. It’s faith. Believers believe it and take it on faith, and history cannot prove it.'
Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus? The Craig-Ehrman Debate | Reasonable Faith
The resurrection as part of an allegorical narrative assists us understand the eternal nature of the soul and the power of Christ's Teachings to bestow new spiritual upon those who follow Him.
So did Christ really rise from the dead and what's the evidence He did? Is there evidence to support He didn't?
With all due respect to my Christian brothers and sisters, why is Christ's Resurrection so fundamental to Christian belief?
My question is, how much do you believe in the bible?
If you do not believe what is Written, then there would be no reason to continue.
As for did Christ really rise from the dead.
Who do you believe the dead are?
You believe those dead are, being like dead in graves.
There's no one in graves, only the bodies of those who have pass from this life to the next life, are with God.
Once the body becomes old and dies. The body returns back to the dirt of the earth, from where it was taken from, and the spirit within the body returns back to God, who gave it.
As for did Christ really rise from the dead.
The dead being the Spiritually dead, of having no Spiritual understanding of God.
Therefore they are Spiritually dead to God.
And not dead in graves as some people believe they are, No
They are Spiritually dead and are not in graves, But have pass over into the great gulf fix, Awaiting for the Judgement of Christ Jesus.
The Great Gulf Fix, is those who haved pass from this life over into the Spiritual Realm, dimension which we can not see,
Says you, say evangelical Christians - but where is the scriptural evidence for this?The Olivet discourse refers to two, not one eschatological events.
It doesn't matter whether it really happened or not, what matters to this discussion (at present) is whether the authors intended to say that it really happened - I strongly believe, based on many readings of the scriptures, that the authors of the Bible intended their readers to believe that Christ was literally, physically resurrected. To suggest that they had in mind a far future restoration of spirituality is to grant them knowledge that their own record of their understanding at that time denies - even if the far future fulfillment were true - there is no way that Jesus' disciples and the other supposed authors of NT scripture understood it that way. It just does not come out of any fair reading of scripture at all.But the literal resurrection never happened any more than the stories in the first nine chapters of genesis literally happened. Its mostly a mythologial story to convey more profound spiritual truths.
IF. But you have yet to present any credible evidence to show that there are intended two eschatological periods.If there are two eschatological periods as I have suggested, this is not a problem.
The Book of Daniel is a fanciful book of selectively recorded historical details, Jewish mythology and failed restoration prophecies. There was no spiritual restoration after Daniel was written - the Jews just sank further and further into oppression and superstition and were finally destroyed after their treasured restoration prophecies had been appropriated by the outbreak of Christianity. "Jesus" simply transferred some the Seleucid "abominations" of the Maccabeean era and re-applied them to the Romans desolation of the temple in the 1st century. And those words of Jesus were recorded after the event but written "as prophecy" (i.e. as if they were prophecies written before the events) just as the events surrounding Antiochus IV Epiphanes persecution of the Jews and the Jewish revolt had been in Daniel 8.The author of the book of Daniel did it. Why not Jesus and the auther of revelation?
Says you, say evangelical Christians - but where is the scriptural evidence for this?
It doesn't matter whether it really happened or not, what matters to this discussion (at present) is whether the authors intended to say that it really happened - I strongly believe, based on many readings of the scriptures, that the authors of the Bible intended their readers to believe that Christ was literally, physically resurrected. To suggest that they had in mind a far future restoration of spirituality is to grant them knowledge that their own record of their understanding at that time denies - even if the far future fulfillment were true - there is no way that Jesus' disciples and the other supposed authors of NT scripture understood it that way. It just does not come out of any fair reading of scripture at all.