Formless and Void

[Fool]

The world that was formed in Genesis1:1 was formless and void according to Genesis1:2. This sounds like a good way to describe the indescribable. This leaves me to wonder, what was the nature of heaven in 1:1. Was it describable?

difference between potential and actual. mind is the builder

 

[sandy whitelinger]

difference between potential and actual. mind is the builder

I'm utterly clueless as to how this fits the op.

 

[Fool]

I'm utterly clueless as to how this fits the op.

before the mind, spirit, moved it was at rest. it was in a potential state[potentate comes from the same root word, potent]. when it moved became active it began to form things, that was the "beginning" of formed things. prior to the movement it was unformed and unmoved, at rest, has no beginning and no end. it is undifferentiated.

a wave, spirit(wind) moving on water, has a beginning and an end, the waters it was formed from doesn't.

 

[Srivijaya]

Ok, what got divided to make the firmament?

Let's have a look:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - New International Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea]">[a] John 1 NIVit - - Bible Gateway.

So, what was there to divide?
What else was there to be divided but God? If there was something other than God to be divided, then God is not the source of all - as something else would have needed to already pre-exist. And Christians insist that God is the ultimate source of all existence. Is this a fair point?

How was it divided? What was responsible for the process of division?
According to the above it was the Word/Spirit of God. John says "the Word was God" in order that people should not attribute the creation to any other source. But the Word is shown as distinctive (otherwise why mention it?). Would you agree with that?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

So what was the fimament that was formed to separate the waters from above from the waters below?
And you may have confused what was formless and void. The earth was described that way not the heaven. Are you saying heaven was also formless and void?

Ok I did not realize you were talking about the Biblical narrative of Genesis.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

The heavens of course is the universe, solar system etc. Of course the earth was void in the sense that it was void of land, creatures etc. It seems the water was the first thing God created on earth. Now what seperated the water from the sky I would assume the combination of clouds and the sun to indicate sky versus water/land.

 

[dfnj]

So it was not formless and void but tangible.

By the way, how did all that white light get there when light wasn't created yet?

I think you are thinking about this the wrong way. When you are in it, you do not experience conscious self. You point of view is built on the premise of duality. Without conscious experience time does not exist. The existence of mass and energy is a prerequisite for time. The question is not then how did you know the light was white. The answer is there are no other colors to use as a reference.

 

[dfnj]

Ok I did not realize you were talking about the Biblical narrative of Genesis.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

The heavens of course is the universe, solar system etc. Of course the earth was void in the sense that it was void of land, creatures etc. It seems the water was the first thing God created on earth. Now what seperated the water from the sky I would assume the combination of clouds and the sun to indicate sky versus water/land.

I always thought Heaven is the place where God sits on His throne. I always thought you had to die in order to meet God. And therefore, Heaven is some alternate dimension of reality.

 

[ChristineM]

I thought heat death mass would unravel into energy and then the energy would spread out.

Correct, it is the second part of your post i was referring to.

"the single Universal wave form of all existence collapses into a ball of nothing but pure energy creating another Big Bang event"

until there is no free energy to increase entropy. As an example, when every particle is so far from every other particle that interaction between them is impossible given the speed of light. The ultimate fate of the universe (assuming no other catastrophe) in around 15 trillion+ years

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The world that was formed in Genesis1:1 was formless and void according to Genesis1:2.

You mean according to your translation of Genesis 1:2.

But there is also the following ...

When God began to create the heaven and the earth -- the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water -- God said, "Let there be light", and there was light.

- JPS / Plaut Commentary​

When God began to create heaven and earth, and the earth then was welter and waste and darkness over the deep and God's breath hovering over the waters, God said, "Let there be light." And there was light.

- Robert Alter; The Five Books of Moses​

At the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth, when the earth was wild and waste, darkness over the face of the Ocean, rushing spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters -- God said: Let there be light! And there was light.

- Everett Fox; The Five Books of Moses​

 

[sandy whitelinger]

before the mind, spirit, moved it was at rest. it was in a potential state[potentate comes from the same root word, potent]. when it moved became active it began to form things, that was the "beginning" of formed things. prior to the movement it was unformed and unmoved, at rest, has no beginning and no end. it is undifferentiated.

a wave, spirit(wind) moving on water, has a beginning and an end, the waters it was formed from doesn't.

That's nice. What was heaven like in Genesis1:1.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Ok I did not realize you were talking about the Biblical narrative of Genesis.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

The heavens of course is the universe, solar system etc. Of course the earth was void in the sense that it was void of land, creatures etc. It seems the water was the first thing God created on earth. Now what seperated the water from the sky I would assume the combination of clouds and the sun to indicate sky versus water/land.

Yet the Bible says the sun the moon and the stars are in the firmament.

 

[Fool]

That's nice. What was heaven like in Genesis1:1.

heaven and earth are in-formed.

revealed, realized.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

So what was the fimament that was formed to separate the waters from above from the waters below?
And you may have confused what was formless and void. The earth was described that way not the heaven. Are you saying heaven was also formless and void?

The Bible talks about the heavens being unfolded like a curtain, or fabric, as a tent- to provide a space to live in

Which is a pretty elegant way to describe lower dimensions unfolding into larger ones...

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Ok I did not realize you were talking about the Biblical narrative of Genesis.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

The heavens of course is the universe, solar system etc. Of course the earth was void in the sense that it was void of land, creatures etc. It seems the water was the first thing God created on earth. Now what seperated the water from the sky I would assume the combination of clouds and the sun to indicate sky versus water/land.

The heavens do not seem to be the universe. That is the firmament excluding the open firmament of heaven which is the sky. It all there in the KJV.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The Bible talks about the heavens being unfolded like a curtain, or fabric, as a tent- to provide a space to live in

Which is a pretty elegant way to describe lower dimensions unfolding into larger ones...

That would seem to be pointing to heaven having many levels or dimensions, as you call it, which seems to coincide with with the Hebrew. One heaven. Many aspects. This also puts heaven squarely in the middle of the tangible.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

heaven and earth are in-formed.

revealed, realized.

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You mean according to your translation of Genesis 1:2.

But there is also the following ...

When God began to create the heaven and the earth -- the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water -- God said, "Let there be light", and there was light.

- JPS / Plaut Commentary​

When God began to create heaven and earth, and the earth then was welter and waste and darkness over the deep and God's breath hovering over the waters, God said, "Let there be light." And there was light.

- Robert Alter; The Five Books of Moses​

At the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth, when the earth was wild and waste, darkness over the face of the Ocean, rushing spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters -- God said: Let there be light! And there was light.

- Everett Fox; The Five Books of Moses​

There seems to be a discrepancy in the meaning of the nature of the world in the translations. Which one do you believe most accurately describes the world at it's formation?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I always thought Heaven is the place where God sits on His throne. I always thought you had to die in order to meet God. And therefore, Heaven is some alternate dimension of reality.

So heaven was indescribable as well as the formless and void earth. Weird situation.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I always thought Heaven is the place where God sits on His throne. I always thought you had to die in order to meet God. And therefore, Heaven is some alternate dimension of reality.

Well there is HEAVEN and there are the HEAVENS. I would say heaven conceptually is a destination in the metaphysical realm where souls ascend to, whereas the heavens denote several destinations in the cosmos ergo, the universe, galaxies etc. That is what I would have understood it conceptually.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yet the Bible says the sun the moon and the stars are in the firmament.

The very definition of firmament means "heavens, sky, etc."