How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

No Catholic thinks water alone cleanse sins. If thats the case, they'd accept LDS, JW, and religions that dont baptized by father, son, and holy spirit all because water is used.

Spirit validates the visual sign. The visual sign doesnt validate the spirit. If thats not the case, The Eucharist at the Episcopal, othorodox catholic church, and Prys. would all be the same.

It isnt. Spiritual and physical work together.

How would I believe in bahaullah (for example) when its his spiritual message thats important but his physical presence to where that knowledge can be transmitted is symbolic?

My understanding is the physical is just the channel or symbol of the inner truth but not the inner truth itself.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This highly includes people who use rituals


I made my questions specific. I dont like generalizations. When I was at The Church, I had conditional love. It wasnt new age. It was based on and in the sacraments of christ-Not the church organization but The Church, the body of christ. My practice was based on culture and tradition that keeps people in christ love daily. It gave grounding.

What about My relationship with christ is false because of my use of ritual to be close to him as opposed to you not using rituals

And

Achieving the same goal?

What about my being baptized in water invalidates being baptized in spirit?

Not what the world things and is doing. Not your experiences (you arent me). Take out politics.

Only God knows if the hearts are sincere or not and so I can only say that I believe that God will guide any person who is sincere.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All the deflections are important aspects to understand what is being discussed to date. Believing in God as a Christian, especially a Catholic, is an extreamly important aspect to understand the Spirit behind the practices. Without God the Practices have no meaning. The rituals give us understanding about our Spiritual Connection with God, not with a flesh body that walked this earth.

Regards Tony

No. I do not believe in god.

The rituals were extremely imporant because without the physical sacraments, I would have not known anything about spiritual. Rituals gave me grounding, culture, snd faith. What you call secondary for me like hugs it made me understand (understand) what a god is. The psychological play people have to define life. The world probably be better if we did lnt displace other peoples mode of worship as if it misguided them or veiled them.

Im a Vietnmese Zen Buddhist. I study at a temple. I am at home there.

Back to my question. The flesh walks the earth is just as important as the spirit/energy that gave it life.

Physical does not cause war. People do.

How are rituals such a water baptism in itself misguides people as opposed to just thinking one is baptized without the conviction of faith and spiritual knowledge of truth?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All the deflections are important aspects to understand what is being discussed to date. Believing in God as a Christian, especially a Catholic, is an extreamly important aspect to understand the Spirit behind the practices. Without God the Practices have no meaning. The rituals give us understanding about our Spiritual Connection with God, not with a flesh body that walked this earth.

Deflections makes conversations longer than they need to be.


I don't know what a god is. My understanding of god was depended on physical rituals and a physical Jesus and a physical and psychological experience that one taught me about spirituality and gave me a jump start to what I follow now.

Rituals ARE the understanding. They are the spirituality.


Again, what about my water baptism invalidate that water was a spiritual part of my former faith and not just "spirit?

What about water invalidates its spiritual means not symbolic of cleansing one of sin?


Not why--how

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My understanding is the physical is just the channel or symbol of the inner truth but not the inner truth itself.

I don't understand that. How or why would you think god only works through an invisible spirit but throws aside the necessity of the physical (a balance) too?

Can god create spirituality from physical?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't understand that. How or why would you think god only works through an invisible spirit but throws aside the necessity of the physical (a balance) too?

Can god create spirituality from physical?

Let’s say a person is thirsty. So they drink water from a cup. The cup is only a vessel but it’s not the cup that quenches the thirst but the water.

But some people believe their thirst is quenched by the cup. And nothing in the world will change their views on that so there’s nothing really that can be done as that is the level of their understanding.

And even if God sent a Manifestation and told them they were wrong they would still insist that the Manifestation is false or some such thing.

God we believe makes known truth to us and separates superstition from reality through His Manifestations but if people aren’t willing to accept that then they must just be let alone to go their own way.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let’s say a person is thirsty. So they drink water from a cup. The cup is only a vessel but it’s not the cup that quenches the thirst but the water.

Let’s say a person is thirsty. So they drink water from a cup. The cup is only a vessel but it’s not the cup that quenches the thirst but the water.

But some people believe their thirst is quenched by the cup. And nothing in the world will change their views on that so there’s nothing really that can be done as that is the level of their understanding.

I think you're missing the extreme importance of culture in the role of religion. Without culture, there is no religion.

What I'm saying is both the cup and the water is needed in order for the person to drink. You need the physical-the cup and in your analogy, the spiritual-the water. Some people mistake the cup as if it is something not needed, something extra. It is saying that god told people to ditch the cup-ditch the culture, traditions, and everything that makes a community a community one with god, just take that out. In other words, drink the water from a non-existent cup. Once you call a cup just a vessel in most religions that is an insult. I know this from learning of Deaf culture and ASL. I learned this through my culture (African American), and even though people say no, the culture (language, art, traditions, and history) of the LGBTQ community.

Culture involves language:

1. Jewish and Greek, for example
2. It involves art
3. It involves traditions (Jewish traditions Jesus followed. Orthodox traditions before the Romans took over)
4. And a boat load of history

Once you take these things out, it is no longer Christianity. No longer spirituality. No cup, no drinking. No drinking, no quench one's spiritual thirst. They go together.

Culture and Religions
This is a long essay about different religions and the cultures that shape them. You don't have to refer to it. Just wanted you to know.

The sacraments of Christ

1. Baptism in water and in spirit (Institution and laws are not the point of baptism; no politics)
2. Communion (Eucharist or not; that's not the point)
3. Verbal Conviction (Yelling as a group: I agree when the priest list what the Church believes or saying the sinner's prayer is not the point; these are visual expressions of a verbal and spiritual conviction. Both of these are extremely important when one is part of a religion)
4. Confession (Repentance. It has nothing to do with who you confess to but that you confess or repent in and of itself. It's asking forgiveness and giving your life to god. The Church has nothing to do with it; no politics)

These things are not part of politics. These are spiritual (water) and physical (cup) expressions of one's faith. Every religion has them. Bahai is no exception:

You have the history and description of beliefs.
Daily rituals

These are the "cups" of your faith.

The huge difference is many liturgical christian followers (Episcopal, Lutheran, Orthodox and Roman Catholic, Presbyterian and even JW and Southern Baptist) all have history, culture, and use different things that are part of their faith just as much as spirituality. It cannot be separated.

And even if God sent a Manifestation and told them they were wrong they would still insist that the Manifestation is false or some such thing.

How can you tell them they are wrong for worshiping god?

What/How does a cup invalidate the conviction of faith (drinking the water to quench one's thirst)?

God we believe makes known truth to us and separates superstition from reality through His Manifestations but if people aren’t willing to accept that then they must just be let alone to go their own way.

It is not superstition. That's like saying Bahai uses superstition all because you (assuming) physically fold your hands or touch the floor when you pray. Is bowing and praying superstition?

Here is the definition of superstition: Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.

God-believers do have credulous beliefs. You do, Hindus, and Pagans to name a few.

You guys arent excluded in this whole thing.

How does my spirit baptism invalid because I used water?

Where in the bible does it say you cannot use culture/rituals if these rituals are not used in place of worship rather than with worship?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No. I do not believe in god.

The rituals were extremely imporant because without the physical sacraments, I would have not known anything about spiritual. Rituals gave me grounding, culture, snd faith

That is the issue Carlita. The Rituals take place of God in your spiritual journey.

Thus for Faith in God, any Great Being, God always comes first, from that belief in God comes our spirituality and our understandings and then the practices are undertaken to confirm the belief.

Thus the Most Important aspect is God in Spirituality, Baha'u'llah said ut this way and this is very compatiable for Christianity;

"...The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

Thus no thought of Spirituality and no Practice is acceptable without God, they are but vain imaginings.

It is up to you ro consider this if you so choose to do so.

I am always happy to discuss what it is to have Faith in God. To me to have no God means to have no life, as with no Sun to light the Earth, life is not possible. The further we move away from the source of light, the darker life is.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Deflections makes conversations longer than they need to be.


I don't know what a god is. My understanding of god was depended on physical rituals and a physical Jesus and a physical and psychological experience that one taught me about spirituality and gave me a jump start to what I follow now.

Rituals ARE the understanding. They are the spirituality.


Again, what about my water baptism invalidate that water was a spiritual part of my former faith and not just "spirit?

What about water invalidates its spiritual means not symbolic of cleansing one of sin?


Not why--how

You said above "Rituals ARE the understanding. They are the spirituality".

Yes, that is what I adressed in my last post to you.

I had a dream where I was soaring in the sky and met a white Dove, I reached out and touched its tail and it did just that, exploded into light, the light was intense joy that made me start singing with tears in my dream, I awoke to the song and tears in my eye back into this life.

I have always wanted to go back to that dove and continue that journey. This life only has that light in our heart.

Stay well and happy Carlita, may your journey in Spirituality and Faith have an explosion of light.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How are rituals such a water baptism in itself misguides people as opposed to just thinking one is baptized without the conviction of faith and spiritual knowledge of truth?

I think the following quote contains the answer to that question.

(The rituals of humanity are also like the body in this quote)

"Material civilization is like a lamp-glass. Divine civilization is the lamp itself and the glass without the light is dark. Material civilization is like the body. No matter how infinitely graceful, elegant and beautiful it may be, it is dead. Divine civilization is like the spirit, and the body gets its life from the spirit, otherwise it becomes a corpse. It has thus been made evident that the world of mankind is in need of the breaths of the Holy Spirit. Without the spirit the world of mankind is lifeless, and without this light the world of mankind is in utter darkness.

(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá)

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is the issue Carlita. The Rituals take place of God in your spiritual journey.

Thus for Faith in God, any Great Being, God always comes first, from that belief in God comes our spirituality and our understandings and then the practices are undertaken to confirm the belief.

Thus the Most Important aspect is God in Spirituality, Baha'u'llah said ut this way and this is very compatiable for Christianity;

"...The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

Thus no thought of Spirituality and no Practice is acceptable without God, they are but vain imaginings.

It is up to you ro consider this if you so choose to do so.

I am always happy to discuss what it is to have Faith in God. To me to have no God means to have no life, as with no Sun to light the Earth, life is not possible. The further we move away from the source of light, the darker life is.

Regards Tony

No. Tony. Unless you want to discuss Buddhism.

That is the issue Carlita. The Rituals take place of God in your spiritual j

Yes. They work together. My answer wont change. I hear view so many times here. Being for diversity, Id put to much hope youe talk about something else besides your religion.

To me, to not know The Dharma is not knowing who I am in relation to the suffering and positively in the world. Without The Dharma, Id have no connection to understand my mine. Im glad I know The Dharma.

What you call god, has no place in my life. I can talk about god all day long. It doesnt bother me. If you cant talk about amything else but god, why support diversity? Youre not interested in whzt we have to say unless we agree with you and take your offer.

Life does not work that way.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think the following quote contains the answer to that question.

(The rituals of humanity are also like the body in this quote)

"Material civilization is like a lamp-glass. Divine civilization is the lamp itself and the glass without the light is dark. Material civilization is like the body. No matter how infinitely graceful, elegant and beautiful it may be, it is dead. Divine civilization is like the spirit, and the body gets its life from the spirit, otherwise it becomes a corpse. It has thus been made evident that the world of mankind is in need of the breaths of the Holy Spirit. Without the spirit the world of mankind is lifeless, and without this light the world of mankind is in utter darkness.

(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá)

Regards Tony

I know the answer to the question from my perspective.

It is not about me.

Dont quote. If you can answer the question, no quotes. Dont go around the bush. Your peers LH and Adrian can talk about things they disagree with without needing to change their opinions in doing so.

If you cant do that, why talk to people whp disagree with you?

Youre offering to a brick wall.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What you call god, has no place in my life. I can talk about god all day long. It doesnt bother me. If you cant talk about amything else but god, why support diversity? Youre not interested in whzt we have to say unless we agree with you and take your offer.

Life does not work that way.

Life does work that way Carlita, it is working right now as we talk here and will do for many many more years to come.

You have your way I have mine and I will find people that do wish to talk about God all day, and you will find people that do not or choose a more individual life.

I will always wish you well in that life.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know the answer to the question from my perspective.

It is not about me.

Dont quote. If you can answer the question, no quotes. Dont go around the bush. Your peers LH and Adrian can talk about things they disagree with without needing to change their opinions in doing so.

If you cant do that, why talk to people whp disagree with you?

Youre offering to a brick wall.

To have the teachings of Buddha in Heart is not disagreement.

The source of those teachings are, so all good Carlita, I personally will offer no more, but to offer all the best for you.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You have your way I have mine and I will find people that do wish to talk about God all day, and you will find people that do not or choose a more individual life

Thats why we cant talk. You dont "listen."

I can talk about god all day. If you cannot talk to those who disagree with you, why start a conversation?

I dont mind talking about bahai if the conversation was two sided. I talk with Adrian and LH. Sometimes IT. Yet, for some reason, unlike your peers, you have a huge issue with disagreement and not parting on positive terms.

Unity among diversity starts with respect and openmindedness. I keep asking how you Tony will acheive unity if you cut it short with anyone you disagree with.

No other Bahai on this thread does this but you

 

[Unveiled Artist]

To have the teachings of Buddha in Heart is not disagreement.

The source of those teachings are, so all good Carlita, I personally will offer no more, but to offer all the best for you.

Regards Tony

When you offer with the postive mind of hearing an "offer" in return, conversations are at ease. When you offer and expect the other to magicaly understand god, thats not respecting the person you talk to. Its evangalizing not a discussion.

The Buddha does the opposite of what you do. He has back and forth conversation where Bahaullah only has onesided and pulls away when challenged. Compassion isnt specific to Buddhism. You have the heart of a Pagan and Wiccan since we are all human beings.

It goes beyond that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No other Bahai on this thread does this but you

Im the bad apple, the one that gets all the warnings.

As such, in my life, I need to talk about God with those that also need God. I have had too many years without that conversation.

It is not anything personal against you, it is my material and spiritual need, my issue.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think you're missing the extreme importance of culture in the role of religion. Without culture, there is no religion.

What I'm saying is both the cup and the water is needed in order for the person to drink. You need the physical-the cup and in your analogy, the spiritual-the water. Some people mistake the cup as if it is something not needed, something extra. It is saying that god told people to ditch the cup-ditch the culture, traditions, and everything that makes a community a community one with god, just take that out. In other words, drink the water from a non-existent cup. Once you call a cup just a vessel in most religions that is an insult. I know this from learning of Deaf culture and ASL. I learned this through my culture (African American), and even though people say no, the culture (language, art, traditions, and history) of the LGBTQ community.

Culture involves language:

1. Jewish and Greek, for example
2. It involves art
3. It involves traditions (Jewish traditions Jesus followed. Orthodox traditions before the Romans took over)
4. And a boat load of history

Once you take these things out, it is no longer Christianity. No longer spirituality. No cup, no drinking. No drinking, no quench one's spiritual thirst. They go together.

Culture and Religions
This is a long essay about different religions and the cultures that shape them. You don't have to refer to it. Just wanted you to know.

The sacraments of Christ

1. Baptism in water and in spirit (Institution and laws are not the point of baptism; no politics)
2. Communion (Eucharist or not; that's not the point)
3. Verbal Conviction (Yelling as a group: I agree when the priest list what the Church believes or saying the sinner's prayer is not the point; these are visual expressions of a verbal and spiritual conviction. Both of these are extremely important when one is part of a religion)
4. Confession (Repentance. It has nothing to do with who you confess to but that you confess or repent in and of itself. It's asking forgiveness and giving your life to god. The Church has nothing to do with it; no politics)

These things are not part of politics. These are spiritual (water) and physical (cup) expressions of one's faith. Every religion has them. Bahai is no exception:

You have the history and description of beliefs.
Daily rituals

These are the "cups" of your faith.

The huge difference is many liturgical christian followers (Episcopal, Lutheran, Orthodox and Roman Catholic, Presbyterian and even JW and Southern Baptist) all have history, culture, and use different things that are part of their faith just as much as spirituality. It cannot be separated.



How can you tell them they are wrong for worshiping god?

What/How does a cup invalidate the conviction of faith (drinking the water to quench one's thirst)?



It is not superstition. That's like saying Bahai uses superstition all because you (assuming) physically fold your hands or touch the floor when you pray. Is bowing and praying superstition?

Here is the definition of superstition: Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.

God-believers do have credulous beliefs. You do, Hindus, and Pagans to name a few.

You guys arent excluded in this whole thing.

How does my spirit baptism invalid because I used water?

Where in the bible does it say you cannot use culture/rituals if these rituals are not used in place of worship rather than with worship?

Here we have two basic principles involved.

1. The right of the individual to freedom of worship however he/she feels most happy and comfortable with which is a human right. We only do this for ourselves regardless of whether God approves of it or not.

2. Worshipping God the way God has prescribed and the manner in which God has asked us to worship Him through His Manifestations.We only do this if we want to win God’s Good Pleasure

If our aim be to do what pleases us most then we follow point 1.
However if we seek the correct and true path and to win God’s Good Pleasure then we follow laws His Manifestations have specifically prescribed for us.

So the bottom line is we have a choice between following God’s path or a man made one. The choice is ours.

The reason I believe we need to turn to the latest Manifestation is because the line betweeen what is man made and what actually comes from God has become blurred over the centuries with all sorts of interpretations and such.

However now, for the first time in history we have the written Words of the Manifestation of God Himself so there can be no discrepanacy as to what was actually meant in the past by Jesus or any other Teacher. And we are told that things like the sacraments do not lead to God even though Catholics believe they do.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah only has onesided and pulls away when challenged.

That is not correct. But you would need to see that for yourself.

Personally I have to choose what I implement in life, in my underatanding of it all, as you also do.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

in today’s world we can believe without the need of a ritual.

But if it makes them feel good then I’m happy...

...but you know better - right? And if that makes you feel good, I'm happy for you...

...but I still don't think you should support your position by pretending that Jesus didn't command it when he clearly did...or that you believe the teachings of Jesus when you clearly don't...just be honest and say 'I don't believe in the teachings of Jesus' - don't twist his teachings and then claim that his other followers have got it all wrong - I tried that myself for a few years as a JW - and its just not right.