In the Beginning...of What?

[Katzpur]

Ok, let's go a bit slower. I.know you know your Bible. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Why haven't we discovered the physicality of heaven?

I'm assuming Heaven is not actually part of this universe, but it separate from it. What makes you think we ought to have discovered it at this point? There are billions of light years of space out there we haven't even begun to explore.

 

[David T]

I didn't see much about Scripture here bit I'm glad you had a nice flight.

it means in the begining. Based on genisis 1. There you go.

The story is all about the fall of man.. The remainder is to set the stage. So you are focused on the opening pan shot and there is no dialog as of yet. That's the specific of this story.

Creationism is totally lost in the pan shot.

 

[osgart]

I thought the story meant in the beginning of created life. God creates a domain for living creatures, namely heaven, and earth. Heaven would be out beyond the universe, and earth was created in the midst of darkness. Darkness was created as a result of evil, and because of the devil and his angels. And they were cast out of created heaven. And God lives somewhere beyond heaven. So you would have God's eternal domain, created heaven, and created universe; 3 separate places.

 

[Grandliseur]

The first the words of the Bible. Why does this mean the beginning of the universe?

Well, it kinds of explains itself by saying, 'in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth'. This refers then to when God began creating the physical realm.

There is another beginning that begins prior to the physical realms creation. In Micah we read:

Micah 5: 2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. ASV
2 Thou, therefore, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though, little, to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee, shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel,—whose comings forth, have been from of old, from the days of age-past time. (Rotherham)
And, Proverbs where Wisdom personified refers to our Jesus before he came to earth:
Prov 8:
22 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I brought forth; 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep, 28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong, 29 When he gave to the sea its bound, That the waters should not transgress his commandment, When he marked out the foundations of the earth; 30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him, 31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men.​

From this we know that God began his creative works by creating our Lord Jesus. After that, obviously he created the angels, BUT !

From this point we are told that all things God created were created by means and through Jesus. In this way, Jesus is the only begotten first born of all beings and things.

So, the beginning refers to when God created Jesus, the angels, the physical universe we live in, and the earth - and in that order of sequence though the earth of course has been created fairly late in the scope of things if scientists have the ages correct when speaking of the age of the universe and earth. Even now, things in the heavens are not static.

 

[Skwim]

Seems one has a choice as to what he actually created.

ONE HEAVEN

KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.​

MORE THAN ONE HEAVEN

NASB
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

THE SKY

ICB
In the beginning God created the sky and the earth.​

THE UNIVERSE

ISV
In the beginning, God created the universe.
​

From my understanding of heaven, it isn't physical, so the term wouldn't be referring to the universe as we regard it.

.

 

[dfnj]

The first the words of the Bible. Why does this mean the beginning of the universe?

There is absolutely no proof the state of nothingness ever occurred in reality. Since somethingness DOES exists, then somethingness always existed.

 

[Politesse]

Perhaps the beginning of the story? I do not think this means the universe, as the next verse is clear that both space and matter already existed ("Spirit of God was hovering over the waters"). God organized and defined it, but it says nothing about his creating it.

 

[dfnj]

You could argue before the written word existed, time did not exist. Without the written word to provide a sense of history, then prior to the written word, nothing existed. Once the written word comes into existence, the Universe, God, the heavens and Earth then become real because they exist in words.

 

[idav]

The first the words of the Bible. Why does this mean the beginning of the universe?

When that stuff was written people likely thought there was only earth and sky meant heaven. Planets were discovered as observable phenomenon described as “wandering stars” but I am not sure the writers of Genesis were privy to that info.

 

[dfnj]

When that stuff was written people likely thought there was only earth and sky meant heaven. Planets were discovered as observable phenomenon described as “wandering stars” but I am not sure the writers of Genesis were privy to that info.

I'm not sure the people who idol worship the Bible now know either!

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Someplace I came across the Mechanical Translation of Genesis, in which the same words are translated in the same way every time they occur in the original Hebrew. According to that translation, the first words could instead of "in the beginning" be "In the summit."

And as I am not a scholar of Hebrew, I cannot say further, but I have seen other words used entirely ("On high, Elohim," for one). If I recall correctly, the common "In the beginning" is rooted in the Greek translation in the Septuagint, rather than necessarily the original Hebrew.

 

[RedDragon94]

The first the words of the Bible. Why does this mean the beginning of the universe?

It means the same thing as First and foremost. The word for that whole phrase is Re'shiyth, and that's what it means.

 

[shunyadragon]

It seems to me that the universe separated heaven from earth.

It is related to the ancient world view of Aristotle that was 'believed at the time Genesis was compiled, about 800 - 600 BCE.

 

[Grandliseur]

From my understanding of heaven, it isn't physical, so the term wouldn't be referring to the universe as we regard it.

By my study, the conclusion that in many cases throughout the Bible the word singular for heaven may refer to what belongs to a specific planet so that in some cases when saying heavens, it might refer to several planets, or in the case of Gen 1:1 to the entire cosmos.

One place it says that something is beyond the heavens, above, I forgot the exact quote, in this case it would seem as it referred to God's heavenly temple to an abode not on a planet but in interstellar space, or even in another reality.

Just giving you some information, whether you accept it or not - is not an issue.

 

[Clear]

The first the words of the Bible. Why does this mean the beginning of the universe?

Hi Sandy Whitelinger, I like this question.

The early Judeo-Christian doctrine that matter existed prior to creation and thus God created by organizing out of pre-existing, chaotic material, is, I think more rational and logical and more in tune with science as opposed to the modern theory of magical creation from "nothing" that was made popular by later theologians and adopted by the later Christian movements.


Regarding your question about Genesis 1:1 :
In the early Judeo-Christian descriptions, the interpretation did NOT refer to the creation of all things, but instead referred to a specific process of creation.

Frank Cross (of DDS) concludes that it was the ex nihilo creation tradition itself which prompted the 1600's era translation of Gen. 1:1 found in the King James and similar versions. Other versions of the Bible have noticed the forcing within the translation and have NOT followed the wording of the King James. For example, according to The Interpreter's Bible, the Hebrew bere' sit would more properly be rendered "In the beginning OF" creation rather than simply "In the beginning."

There is no definite article in the Masoretic Hebrew in this phrase. And, some bibles are starting to reflect this reality.

E.A. Speiser translates Gen 1:1 "When God set about to create heaven and earth, the world being then a formless waste. ." or, as Cross renders it "When God began to create the heaven and the earth, then God said, 'Let there be light.'" Thus the traditional translation of Gen. 1:1 as an independent statement, implying that God first created matter out of nothing, and then (verse 2.) proceeded to fashion the world from that raw material, is now widely questioned, and several relatively recent translations have adopted the approach advocated by Speiser and Cross.

Spieser, who translated Gen 1:1 as above, then adds: "The question, however, is not the ultimate truth about cosmogony, but only the exact meaning of the Genesis passages which deal with the subject.. . . At all events, the text should be allowed to speak for itself."

Other modern versions which incorporate this usage include The New Jewish Version : "When God began to create the heaven and the earth, the earth being unformed and void. . . ."; similarly The Bible, An American Translation (1931); The Westminster Study Edition of the Holy Bible (1948); Moffat's translation (1935); and the Revised Standard Version (RSV), alternate reading, Stones Chumash (a midrashich distillation) follows the new wording, etc.

My point is that the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 has long been seen as faulty, but there has been little contextual framework (or motive) for translators to change it. As scholars became more aware of the historical incongruence of magical creation from "nothing" in the framework of early Judeo-Christian literature (which is more consistent with creation from prior matter), then the translation had sufficient supporting motivation for translators (who are often not sharing the same data stream as historians) to change it.

Any way. I liked your question and think a return to the earlier Judeo-Christian model of creation from matter is more logical and more rational.

Good Journey to you Sandy

Clear
ειφιφυω

 

[Willamena]

The first the words of the Bible. Why does this mean the beginning of the universe?

It's a story-telling device, like "Once upon a time..."

 

[dfnj]

I think God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about!

 

[Skwim]

By my study, the conclusion that in many cases throughout the Bible the word singular for heaven may refer to what belongs to a specific planet so that in some cases when saying heavens, it might refer to several planets, or in the case of Gen 1:1 to the entire cosmos.

Kind of like god's residence on the star / planet Kolob?

.

 

[dfnj]

Reality is a delusion, we do not exist, therefore, God does not exist. Nothingness is a cool breeze on a summer's day.

In speaking the word the observer and what is being observed become one. When we are one we have meaning. Nobody understands anything without God's permission.

Somewhere between the expansion of consciousness and the contraction of focus what is real becomes imaginary and what is imaginary becomes real.

Wow, really good drugs.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The first the words of the Bible. Why does this mean the beginning of the universe?

Wrong. There is no beginning. Whether it is material (samsara) or void (shunya), or sometime one and at another time the other, it is eternal.