Should I Keep Trying to Understand and Save Christianity?

[RedDragon94]

Thanks! I am not talking about changing minds on this website. People do sometimes change our own minds. Sometimes we see something that resonates internally or we just are in that moment ready for a particular piece of information. It can appear as if we have changed a person's mind, but its more like an accident when that happens. We get to witness it.

To me that's like John Calvin's doctrine of irresistible grace.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Why do you take such a grim view? That would not be what I get out of reading the Bible. Subjectively, I would prefer mainstream Christianity to your view.

I think its beautiful, actually; but I describe it as grim to get across that it is not about individuals. I probably differ because I'm not an Advaita Spiritualist like yourself.

Objectively, I personally believe in the personal afterlife from the paranormal evidence and not ancient scriptures.

But in the big picture, I believe Christianity is still a big inherent vehicle for spirituality in my society (America), and I still am pro-Christian (although not a Christian per se). When talking with Christians I try to persuade a more modern universal and less dogmatic understanding of spirituality.

I appreciate that you have an open heart about people not in your religion and are willing to talk about your experience. I feel that you are somewhat dogmatic about spiritual things, such as your view of the cosmos and consciousness. I think you see Advaita everywhere and have Advaita colored glasses. I think you even see Buddhism as a form of Advaita, right? Then of course that is also how you see Christianity, because it is your eyes you see through.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So, let me see if I understand you. You want to know if you should "keep trying to ... save Christianity," a 2 millennia old religion with close to 2.4 billion adherents that has inspired a near countless library of scholarly articles.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Just believe what you think is right. After that, it's up to you to figure out how to label that belief. Don't let anyone else force you to do otherwise, but still keep an open mind.

Advice taken.

 

[sealchan]

Are they leaving? I am unaware of the statistics. It would be great if churches became centers of learning, action and community interaction. Its sad that folks have to leave.

Religious Affiliation | Pew Research Center

I've read some trends over the years...the increase in nones, the increase in spiritual but not religious, etc...you can find information at the link above if you are curious. Its interesting just to read the article titles actually...

My own experience is that in the three or four churches I've been to the average age of the attendees is somewhere in the 50s or 60s.

Thanks for that. While I don't have a picture of you I imagine you probably don't look like a Christian. Perhaps you look more like duck feathered bank robber.

That works for me.

 

[SinSaber]

Your more like a satanist than a Christian. IE: Just an atheist who likes to be called something different

 

[InChrist]

If you have been following the forums long, you may have noticed that I'm whiny about Christianity but am still a Christian. There are a lot of practices that I don't like in Christianity today.

Come to me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest for your souls. Matthew 11:28-29

 

[Brickjectivity]

So, let me see if I understand you. You want to know if you should "keep trying to ... save Christianity," a 2 millennia old religion with close to 2.4 billion adherents that has inspired a near countless library of scholarly articles.

That's a very positive way of looking at things. Thanks for that. Yes there are definitely 2 millennia of people, and I don't want to overlook them or discard their efforts. I'm more interested in not wasting people, and that's really what I mean. It isn't the religion that I am worried about. Religions go on and on.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Your more like a satanist than a Christian. IE: Just an atheist who likes to be called something different

Actually I am not a Satanist or interested in any of that nonsense. Also I'm not an atheist.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

the bible doesn't teach that the personality is resurrected. it may teach resurrection but it isn't the/a personality. the personality dies with the body. the Spirit is raised.

finally we agree on something! Me and Fool be mates!

It's an interesting take, but one which might leave many who are already "on the cusp" grasping for a reason to stay on the straight and narrow. Reason being - if I consider myself mainly my "personality" (as I would argue most people undoubtedly do), and propose that an amorphous, unknowable "soul" or "spirit" is what either goes to heaven or hell, and not what I consider to be "me", then how does one relate to, care for, or empathize with this amorphous, unknowable "soul" or "spirit"? Why care what happens to it? People already have a hard enough time empathizing with BILLIONS of animals that are mistreated for years on end, only to end up slaughtered and eaten by an ungrateful horde of human beings - and those creatures ARE knowable, are known to exist, and their pain and plight is very akin to our own.

Take away that level of familiarity, and it's like asking people to care for rocks that are beaten apart with pick-axes and and taken to be crushed.

 

[George-ananda]

I think its beautiful, actually; but I describe it as grim to get across that it is not about individuals.

My point was that I don’t see where the Christian Bible supports the ‘grim’ view. Where does this view come from?

I tried to view this OP from a mainstream Christian’s perspective, not an Advaita perspective actually.

 

[Milton Platt]

If you have been following the forums long, you may have noticed that I'm whiny about Christianity but am still a Christian. There are a lot of practices that I don't like in Christianity today. I'm concerned about these practices damaging my relatives and which anger me. Specifically: the modern concept they call 'Worship', the Church Industry of Franchised Churches, the fake Bible seminaries that church out 'Ministers', and above all the practice of teaching children that death is not real. People often go to church, sit, listen, donate, leave and forget. I hate these things. One person in a thousand spends time working with the homeless or visits rest homes or prisons or orphanages.

At the same time, all of the people involved from the ministers to the church members to the organist who's just payed to be there -- they all have brains and all contribute good things to the world. They matter, and I have seen the damage that this kind of life can do to them. At the same time their views of church are integrated with their lives, and you can't just go changing people's lives. They really believe that their loved ones that have died are safe somewhere up in another dimension or in another place or that they will be brought back from death. This is a huge comfort for many. Taking it away is like taking candy away.

Also if everybody listened to one person (me) that would not be healthy for any concerned I think. Every time a persuasive religious leader pops up I think it does not really change much. It tends to justify their tendency to search for people to tell them things that they want to hear.

There is also a contradiction in my effort. I'm someone who believes in a very Biblical approach to Christianity, something that does not involve a personal afterlife. I think Christianity is supposed to be a community that grimly accepts personal death in order to contribute to life for all. It is a life of labor and selflessness, but you know what I am not actually living that way. I'm just observing what I think the Bible says about it. In that case I really do not have a personal stake in it. There's not much that I contribute at the moment. How would I ever get other people to commit to it?

What's to save? Shouldn't it either simply stand or fall on it's own merits and truthfulness?

 

[Brickjectivity]

It's an interesting take, but one which might leave many who are already "on the cusp" grasping for a reason to stay on the straight and narrow. Reason being - if I consider myself mainly my "personality" (as I would argue most people undoubtedly do), and propose that an amorphous, unknowable "soul" or "spirit" is what either goes to heaven or hell, and not what I consider to be "me", then how does one relate to, care for, or empathize with this amorphous, unknowable "soul" or "spirit"? Why care what happens to it? People already have a hard enough time empathizing with BILLIONS of animals that are mistreated for years on end, only to end up slaughtered and eaten by an ungrateful horde of human beings - and those creatures ARE knowable, are known to exist, and their pain and plight is very akin to our own.

I think Jesus does ask for people to care for something besides themselves -- the future and everyone; and I think people respond to this request. I think this is Christianity's edge over pagan religions and is why so many Romans convert so quickly. I think this is what really gets people excited. Let me turn the question around: Why would anyone care about some eternal retirement home that ignores all the suffering that goes on here? Who would even trust such a thing? Christians actually don't unless there are people they know in it, and if you look at how Christians live, Christians care about each other's concerns here. Sure, Christians are constantly bombarded with people claiming that heaven is full of the dead, but still its people here that Christians care about. Its where christian consciences are and where the spirit wants Christians to act. People worry about what's going to happen to the world and the people in it. Its plenty enough, more than enough to inspire faithful devotion.

Take away that level of familiarity, and it's like asking people to care for rocks that are beaten apart with pick-axes and and taken to be crushed.

Everyone has a little bit of love and hope, a candle of fire to burn. Put all of the people's hopes and loves together and you get a blaze and sometimes a whole new way of living and of looking at the world.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What's to save? Shouldn't it either simply stand or fall on it's own merits and truthfulness?

I agree, but I'm interested in people. I'm not trying to save Christianity for its own sake. I'm interested in restoring value to the lives of people.

 

[Brickjectivity]

My point was that I don’t see where the Christian Bible supports the ‘grim’ view. Where does this view come from?

I tried to view this OP from a mainstream Christian’s perspective, not an Advaita perspective actually.

What got me started thinking about this thread were other threads where I responded to someone who thought 'Liberal' (non-mainstream) Christians were fake:
"Being a liberal Christian is about reading the Bible without constraints and not about being an anarchist. Repentance is resurrection just as the bread and wine are the body and blood. Heaven-going is a cowardly idea, something I think is inappropriate for Christians. It is a tale told to ignorant peasants by their feudal lords to keep them in line."
and
"
The #1 issue is how people treat one another. I would never say there were many ways to heaven for individuals as we cease to be when we enter Christ. Suggesting that individuals enter heaven is counter to Christs teaching I think, probably something projected onto the Bible. Its cute to imagine individuals in heaven, but it makes no sense. Consider that from the beginning baptism is into a name and a denial of self. The self cannot enter heaven, is fallen, is of the flesh. Consider that Paul says to the baptized that they are currently seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. The implication is that outside of Christ they are not, so whatever is not Christ is not. There are not many ways to heaven, and there are no individuals going. Obviously sexual promiscuity is a waste of time and a selfish pursuit.
"
George, I am not calling anyone else a fake Christian. I am pointing out that self denial is something Jesus harps on as does Paul. They talk about dying upon a cross. They also talk about being part of a larger body the Church "Which is his body," the body of Christ. On the early christian gravestones is Rest In Peace, not 'See you later'.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Let me turn the question around: Why would anyone care about some eternal retirement home that ignores all the suffering that goes on here? Who would even trust such a thing?

I can think of some obvious reasons why... the hope that "it gets better". A lot of people here are trying to improve their own situations, even as they may attempt to help others do the same. Heck... some even view helping others as improving their own situation. And what better situation to be in than an "eternal retirement home" from which it is impossible to even be held responsible for anything else that goes on down on Earth? A place to lose all mortal responsibility. A chance to get out from under everything that was once hindering you from achieving that prize of an improved situation.

But you raise to mind an interesting point. If everyone cares so much for the people down here, and are always trying to help everyone, then why would you ever want to go to heaven? As you said - heaven basically ignores all the suffering that goes on here - at least that's how it works to most people's minds. So... why go there? Isn't it sort of the coward's way out? Wouldn't "you" have to feel guilty about enjoying yourself at all in heaven if you could remember what it was like on Earth and know that your children, or your grandchildren were still down there plodding the course? Interesting... heaven ends up being quite the selfish proposition under those circumstances. Unless, of course, you are just some disembodied "spirit" with no recollection of what you once were, or "who" you were... lacking any sort of individual "personality" or distinction. But then again... who really wants that either?

Christians actually don't unless there are people they know in it, and if you look at how Christians live, Christians care about each other's concerns here.

My sincere bet on this is that this is because they secretly worry/accept/fear that this life is all there is. That death is a definitive end. I know this is almost tantamount to the old Christian sling that "non-believers secretly believe in God and reject Him in order to continue on in their wicked ways" - except that we have every possible piece of proof and evidence for the existence of death and the brand of finality that comes with it, and not one shred of evidence that is nearly as compelling for the existence of God.

 

[George-ananda]

George, I am not calling anyone else a fake Christian. I am pointing out that self denial is something Jesus harps on as does Paul. They talk about dying upon a cross. They also talk about being part of a larger body the Church "Which is his body," the body of Christ. On the early christian gravestones is Rest In Peace, not 'See you later'.

I think self-denial and effort for others is certainly a part of Christianity, but I don’t see that conflicting with an afterlife belief.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I can think of some obvious reasons why... the hope that "it gets better". A lot of people here are trying to improve their own situations, even as they may attempt to help others do the same. Heck... some even view helping others as improving their own situation. And what better situation to be in than an "eternal retirement home" from which it is impossible to even be held responsible for anything else that goes on down on Earth? A place to lose all mortal responsibility. A chance to get out from under everything that was once hindering you from achieving that prize of an improved situation.

But you raise to mind an interesting point. If everyone cares so much for the people down here, and are always trying to help everyone, then why would you ever want to go to heaven? As you said - heaven basically ignores all the suffering that goes on here - at least that's how it works to most people's minds. So... why go there? Isn't it sort of the coward's way out? Wouldn't "you" have to feel guilty about enjoying yourself at all in heaven if you could remember what it was like on Earth and know that your children, or your grandchildren were still down there plodding the course? Interesting... heaven ends up being quite the selfish proposition under those circumstances. Unless, of course, you are just some disembodied "spirit" with no recollection of what you once were, or "who" you were... lacking any sort of individual "personality" or distinction. But then again... who really wants that either?

I think I see what you are talking about but am aiming in some other direction. All I am trying to say in response to your comment is that people do care, and they do care enough about the future and about other people. This is the operating principle in Christians, not a hope for an afterlife. It is about love at the bottom, and that love is enough for a person to be willing to drown themselves in the body of Christ and become part of it. Men join armies for less and die just for the glory of some city or person or to get their names scratched onto monuments.

My sincere bet on this is that this is because they secretly worry/accept/fear that this life is all there is. That death is a definitive end. I know this is almost tantamount to the old Christian sling that "non-believers secretly believe in God and reject Him in order to continue on in their wicked ways" - except that we have every possible piece of proof and evidence for the existence of death and the brand of finality that comes with it, and not one shred of evidence that is nearly as compelling for the existence of God.

Let us no conflate the two things: afterlife and God. My aim is not to pin a particular belief on the donkey but to remove the blind, so we can worship in spirit and in truth as intended. There is supposed to be freedom in all of this, and I don't see hoodwinking people about the afterlife as freedom. I see it as a corrupt and an unhealthy practice that is exposed not by modern Sciences but by Jesus and the Bible.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think self-denial and effort for others is certainly a part of Christianity, but I don’t see that conflicting with an afterlife belief.

What conflicts with the afterlife belief is the denial of self that Jesus teaches. Secondly Jesus says that repentance is resurrection. Paul says that to live is Christ and to die is gain. These are not 'Afterlife' supporting words. In other words when Paul says 'Resurrection' and Jesus says 'Resurrection' they are alluding to the resurrection mentioned by the Jewish prophets, not the mythical Egyptian resurrection of the katra. The conflict with afterlife is in the denial of the self and the baptism.

 

[SomeRandom]

People are going to have to figure things out for themselves. Granted I do not understand the Christian "need" to convert others. Perhaps that view is more....integral to your approach to religion, I do not know.
But that said people are going to interpret things differently that's just how people work. This happens with art and it most definitely happens with religion. Just because two people read the same scripture is no guarantee that they will have the same conclusion at the end.
Live and let live is usually a much healthier and less stressful way to live. Constantly lamenting your brother's approach can distract from your own.
I'm sympathetic to Christianity but not wholly Christian. I do not begrudge my brothers and sisters in Christ for their opinions and practices. You do you, as they say.