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Liberal Christians: If everyone gets into heaven just cause, will REAL Christians enjoy more?
- Thread starter SinSaber
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So, serving Jesus is because of special rewards saved up for you? Let me ask you this question, if Jesus said, "When you die, you die and that's it." Would you still want to be a Christian? Would you have any reason to once your reward of heaven was off the table?
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
The fact that you asked this question in the first place kind of negates the idea that you have dedicated yourself to Christ, or really follow his teachings... at least as I, a lowly non-believer, understand them. Your question imparts a judgmental attitude toward what you are calling "liberal Christians". You also seem to have an expectation of "more" reward than others. Was Christ one to expect "more" riches and rewards for what he may have done? Does that sort of mindset seem in-keeping with Christ's teachings?
Where do you get the thesis about the afterlife that you present in the OP.
What I found was different: What Christian groups say about the afterlife: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Reincarnation...
Liberal Christians generally believe that the beliefs of the authors of the Bible evolved greatly over the approximately one millennia during which the Bible was written. Thus, there is little internal consistency in the Bible about the afterlife. Some liberals remain undecided on the existence and nature of any form of afterlife.
What I found was different: What Christian groups say about the afterlife: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Reincarnation...
Liberal Christians generally believe that the beliefs of the authors of the Bible evolved greatly over the approximately one millennia during which the Bible was written. Thus, there is little internal consistency in the Bible about the afterlife. Some liberals remain undecided on the existence and nature of any form of afterlife.
My Lord, you're right. I missed that. It immediately brought to mind what Jesus taught that directly answers the OPs question. From Matthew 20:
“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
If Jesus could post here, this is what he would have responded with. “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
There's a parable for this:
'And evening having come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward, Call the workmen, and pay them the reward, having begun from the last -- unto the first.
And they of about the eleventh hour having come, did receive each a denary. And the first having come, did suppose that they shall receive more, and they received, they also, each a denary, and having received [it], they were murmuring against the householder, saying, that These, the last, wrought one hour, and thou didst make them equal to us, who were bearing the burden of the day -- and the heat. And he answering said to one of them, Comrade, I do no unrighteousness to thee; for a denary didst not thou agree with me? Take that which is thine, and go; and I will to give to this, the last, also as to thee; is it not lawful to me to do what I will in mine own? is thine eye evil because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, and few chosen.'
Matthew 20: 8-16
'And evening having come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward, Call the workmen, and pay them the reward, having begun from the last -- unto the first.
And they of about the eleventh hour having come, did receive each a denary. And the first having come, did suppose that they shall receive more, and they received, they also, each a denary, and having received [it], they were murmuring against the householder, saying, that These, the last, wrought one hour, and thou didst make them equal to us, who were bearing the burden of the day -- and the heat. And he answering said to one of them, Comrade, I do no unrighteousness to thee; for a denary didst not thou agree with me? Take that which is thine, and go; and I will to give to this, the last, also as to thee; is it not lawful to me to do what I will in mine own? is thine eye evil because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, and few chosen.'
Matthew 20: 8-16
I certainty hope not, i can't imaging a more horrendous torture than spending an eternity in the company billions of Christians
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
If you're in it for the reward and worry about "getting more", then you're probably not a "real Christian" to begin with.
The "Heaven" I believe in doesn't much resemble the one Christians generally talk about. It's not as exclusive.
I prefer to believe that when we die we just lose our meat self, and with it we lose our illusion of being separated from the Ground of Being. We lose our identity and rejoin God, the way a drop of water rejoins the sea.
If I were a theological Christian, though, I would have to be a Universalist. Universal Salvation is the only way to logically fit Salvation with an Almighty God. Everyone goes to Heaven eventually, because God wants that and Almighty God always gets what He wants. This doesn't mean you go straight to Heaven, everyone needs purification and reeducation first.
Some more than others.
But no Hell, no eternal punishment, because God doesn't want that.
Tom
BSM1
What? Me worry?
My Lord, you're right. I missed that. It immediately brought to mind what Jesus taught that directly answers the OPs question. From Matthew 20:
“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’If Jesus could post here, this is what he would have responded with.
“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
Beat me to it... I use this analogy: A drunkard, womanizing, crook collides with a devote lifelong Christian on a highway. Both are mortally injured and will die before getting to the hospital. The Christian convinces the sinner to repent and accept Salvation just before each breathes their last. How will the Christian feel when he gets to Heaven and his mansion is no bigger than his next door neighbor's, the man who just 'fessed up.
Nice, im more the evidence of science type. Every atom of our body (apart from hydrogen and helium) was born in the furnace of suns. After our deaths our bodies will break down, the atoms and elements will recycle into other life (or non life). Eventually this world will die, those atoms will possibly scatter into space and could fuel other suns. And the process will repeat.
I think the reality of science has the edge over a heaven concept in that it is usefull
Maybe being with God, up close and personal, will help the Christian get over his self-righteous jealousy?
I would like to think that God could have such an effect on people, even if it is not apparent on this mortal plane.
Tom
I'm totally with you as far as this goes. I believe that is exactly what happens to our meat selves. Which is all that scientific methods are capable of investigating, at least at this time.
But there are lots of questions that it isn't able to investigate, at this time. Similarly, there's lots of stuff that couldn't be investigated a century ago, much less 2 or 20 centuries ago, that we now take rather for granted. I am not at all convinced that we even know what the questions are, much less have a method for finding the answers. Any more than medieval monks could investigate the age of the universe. They just didn't know enough to realize that there was a question.
My beliefs are useful to me. I am not concerned about death, I see it as a great adventure to come.
Whether that's useful to anyone else isn't something I have any influence over, so I don't care about what other people believe on the subject.
Tom
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I figure they will just kick each other over and over.
I assume you mean the soul, like god no evidence exists and until it does I'm quite happy that I'll (perhaps) end up giving life to something else then shining as a star.
I am totally good with that myself, and fully expect that to happen. If science has shown us anything about God, it's that He likes cycles
I just don't think that is the whole story, any more than Newtonian physics were the whole story. They're not wrong exactly, they still hold up airplanes and such. But Einstein showed us a whole new world of physics that Sir Newton couldn't have imagined. And even when infectious illnesses were believed to be supernatural "animacules" did exist and cause them. We just didn't know that, have reason to suspect it, much less build the tools and develop the methods needed to find out the truth. I am sure many modern things will turn out the same way. What is now in the realm of "inexplicable, supernatural, mysterious" will come to be understood better. But I don't claim to know what, or how, or anything like that.
I avoid the word soul. Too many people think that they understand what it means, when obviously nobody does. But yeah, that's the best word I know of to mean what I mean. I just don't think anyone knows anything about them of importance.
One big difference between me and theists as a group is recognizing that what I believe on Faith is probably not even close to being The Truth. It's just the best I can do, for myself, with what I have to work with. Faith is what I believe because I prefer to live in a world where it's true, as opposed to any sort of truth claim I might make.
Tom
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Don't you think the Christian should be responsible for their feelings and emotions always?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Would a "real" Christian be so petty and have such jealously over it?
Does not seem like it based on the OP. Who is the we, anyways? You don't represent conservative Christians.